Author Topic: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection  (Read 907 times)

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
This Nationals I discovered myself and many other players have been misplaying an important interaction for quite a while. I used to believe that if TEotE brought in a new lost soul after a protect lost souls ability (Uzzah/Banquet/etc) then the new soul would be rescueable.

This is not the case.

Uzzah and crew's abilities apply to any souls that enter play as long as their ability is active. This seemed unintuitive but the explanation that helped me the most was a battle winner that discards all cards in battle. As most people know, an interrupted ability does not select new targets upon resuming, yet if you interrupt a discard all cards in battle ability and add more cards to battle before it resumes, those new cards are still discarded.

Upon asking around at Nats I discovered many other players were, like myself, unaware of the proper interaction so I hope this helps get the word out.

Offline Master Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Onward...
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 05:23:33 PM »
0
This makes no sense. Ends doesn't interrupt the battle so the discard example is flawed. Are you saying if Deceit of Sapphira discards all cards that if you use YWR to add a Hero that hero is discarded as well?
If you were to go on a trip... where would you like to go?

Offline RedemptionAggie

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3004
    • -
    • South Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 05:28:30 PM »
0
Ongoing abilities that target all of something update their targets as new ones are added.

Instant abilities that target all of something update their targets if they are interrupted and reactivate.

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12266
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 05:28:59 PM »
0
A better example is an ignore ability because it is on-going (similar to protection).

Deceit of Sapphira is an instant ability that resolves prior to YWR being able to trigger.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Online Red Dragon Thorn

  • Still the defending National Champion
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5279
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 05:29:02 PM »
0
I think the better example is Household idols ignoring Samuel after he's exchanged for by Auto, and then further ignoring King Saul if he's Samuels search target. Both ignore and protect are ongoing and update targets
Covenant with Death. That is all.

Offline Master Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Onward...
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 05:41:51 PM »
0
That helps. I was thinking of Uzzah as an instant ability. Carry on.
If you were to go on a trip... where would you like to go?

Offline Cnakeeyes

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 06:00:40 PM »
0
But the cards are no longer in play to update like your examples do. How can they update targets from the discard pile, that makes no sense.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 06:02:13 PM »
0
But the cards are no longer in play to update like your examples do. How can they update targets from the discard pile, that makes no sense.

The ongoing protect lasts until the end of the phase.

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12266
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 06:06:10 PM »
0
^Correct.

Similar to a Moses who is discarded from battle without being negated (thus keeping the battle FBTN), Uzzah/FF protection persists through the remainder of the battle phase and resolution.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Cnakeeyes

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 06:09:20 PM »
0
I agree that the protect would continue, however from countless rulings it is been stated that if it doesn't specify where it defults to in play, and in this case these cards are worded more like instant abilities and are no longer in play to retarget the revealed souls. All the examples you have given requires the card to stay. If i discard household idols or garden tomb and then present blocker or attacker are they still ignored?

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12266
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2018, 06:11:30 PM »
0
If you discarded them without negating them, yes.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Cnakeeyes

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »
0
Ok so dear battle my Joseph cow gets discarded does his protection of other sons of jacob stick till end of battle phase. I have had it ruled multiple times at states and regional that he is no longer on table to protect,

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2018, 06:19:29 PM »
0
Ok so dear battle my Joseph cow gets discarded does his protection of other sons of jacob stick till end of battle phase. I have had it ruled multiple times at states and regional that he is no longer on table to protect,

Territory class abilities don't persist because territory class abilities are only active while the character is in territory.

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12266
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2018, 06:20:15 PM »
0
If he was in battle, the protection would last for the phase.

If he was discarded from territory, then the rule for TC characters is that their abilities "turn off" when they leave territory (even if the abilities aren't negated they simply stop being active).
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Cnakeeyes

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2018, 06:28:37 PM »
0
I guess its just hard for me to wrap my head around a card retargeting from discard. Especially when the cards are worded as instant abilities and others that are worded as ongoing don't. But if that's how it's supposed to be ruled thats how ill start ruling it and teaching it

Offline goalieking87

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 447
    • East Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2018, 05:52:21 PM »
0
Shouldn’t this depend on the wording of what is being targeted?

Uzzah specifies “all lost souls” so wouldn’t matter if a new lost soul enters play as it would still be included as being protected.

However, Fire Foxes just says “lost souls” so only targets the lost souls that were available to be targeted when Fire Foxes activated. Any new lost souls added to the field would not be protected because they were not in play.

Based on the REG wording, I still see this as consistent. “An automatically targeted ongoing effect may update [...]” To day that it may implies that it also may not, which seems like it would be heard on the wording.

Here is wording from REG

Ongoing Effects 
Ongoing effects are effects that activate, declare a target and continue affecting the targets for longer than an instant. Ongoing effects are not completed until their specified duration has ended or the phase in which they are activated has ended, whichever comes later. An automatically targeted ongoing effect may update its targets until it completes. An ongoing effect that has activated but not completed is active. An ongoing effect that persists through multiple phases can be interrupted or negated in each phase in which it is active. If the negation ends before the ongoing effect and the ongoing effect persists to the next phase, it will reactivate at the beginning of the next phase. Any results of an ongoing effect from a prior phase cannot be interrupted or negated, only the results in the current phase.

TheHobbit13

  • Guest
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2018, 05:56:32 PM »
0
But uzzah and fire foxes are both ongoing effects that's why they work, not because of how they are worded. All lost souls is the same thing as lost souls.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2018, 05:57:47 PM »
0
Uzzah specifies “all lost souls” so wouldn’t matter if a new lost soul enters play as it would still be included as being protected.

However, Fire Foxes just says “lost souls” so only targets the lost souls that were available to be targeted when Fire Foxes activated. Any new lost souls added to the field would not be protected because they were not in play.

Uzzah and Foxes both target all lost souls in play. Uzzah including the word all is just an outdated style of wording abilities.

Offline RedemptionAggie

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3004
    • -
    • South Central Region
Re: PSA: The Ends of the Earth doesn't actually counter soul protection
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2018, 06:20:27 PM »
0
Based on the REG wording, I still see this as consistent. “An automatically targeted ongoing effect may update [...]” To day that it may implies that it also may not, which seems like it would be heard on the wording.

I think that wording was hedging against things that don't update, like Begging for Grain (specifies currently in play).

Ends does work against most (all?) of the heretics, since they target "X Lost Souls" instead of "all Lost Souls", which doesn't update targets.