Cactus Game Design Message Boards

This is a super lazy and bad complete of my start, but this will get the idea across and saves tons of time. Just ask questions and I can try to more clearly flesh out what I am thinking. Mostly I just didn't include any of the examples of why this idea is awesome in my opinion (like how BTN characters wouldn't exist...).

For those who don’t know, set rotation is removing old cards from tournament legal play to keep the tournament format fresh, healthy, and to encourage purchase of newer cards. It is used in many CCGs. Traditionally it has not been used in Redemption because Rob Anderson, Redemption’s creator, would like any pack purchased to be legal for tournament play so people don’t feel like they are wasting money.

To be fair, what I will propose isn’t technically set rotation because I don’t necessarily want sets to be rotated out consistently (although it might be needed). To understand my point of view, let’s examine some of the problems that Redemption has been experiencing lately from a gameplay perspective.

Currently, the game is in a bit of doldrums. To be honest, it’s fairly bland. It’s incredibly unbalanced, certain cards in the meta limit creativity in deck building, the games last a long time, and there’s a very small percentage of cards that are actually good (a group of cards that hardly ever changes). Many solutions have been suggested to alleviate some of these issues. The most common is a ban list. Many people think that if we just banned a few cards, the game would be much healthier. However, I do not believe that’s the case.

While ban lists are certainly effective in some games, there are several reasons why I believe it would not work for Redemption
-you wouldn’t ever actually ban the most powerful cards (dominants)
-there isn’t a clear way to ban cards since many cards do the same thing (Moses would almost certainly be banned in any list I made, yet Ira never would – they aren’t the same card, but they are close!)
-previous fan made ban list formats have been unenjoyable at best because the games are even slower than they currently are

Regardless of if you agree or not, I’m just going to go right into my proposal. Technically this isn’t really my proposal for the most part, but rather a group thought that developed over the summer, but I’m not at liberty to discuss who it came from. It is important to note that this idea is probably not able to be implemented until another 1-2 set releases.

1.   Create a “new” format. This format would be the rotated format. The format would begin at I/J starter decks. This is the perfect starting point because a new card look was introduced, making  it obvious which cards are legal in this new format. You could also continue to play tournaments in the “unlimited” format with all cards legal for those who would like to do so.
2.   Eliminate multiplayer. I probably enjoy type 1 MP as much as anyone in the world, but it’s broken. It’s just not how the game is designed to be played. Ditto for Teams. As for T2 MP, if the game is played properly, it should never finish in time barring weird draws, so even the better meta still makes for painful games.

What would this accomplish? Well, any abilities not in print as of I/J could just never be printed again. Can not be negated could be effectively eliminated, because very few cards currently have it printed in the ability post I/J. Because the format would currently be fairly small, good card design could create the healthiest format every seen without having to really worry about all kinds of archaic cards like ANB or Moses or BtC ruining a fine card and making it overpowered or modified to such an extent that it’s simply not good anymore. Honestly, the format could become virtually anything. I personally hope it would become a format where games end in a shorter period of time, and card design isn’t flawed at almost every turn due to attempts to properly power new cards. It has so much promise

But I also proposed eliminating multiplayer. Why? Well, with these two actions, the categories would now be as follows:

I/J-on format (T1 and T2), Unlimited format (T1 and T2), Closed Deck (Sealed and Booster)

Look how cleanly that works out for Nationals! Day 1 is closed deck, Day 2 is unlimited, and Day 3 is I/J-on! Wow! Sounds awesome.

It would allow those who oppose the rotation to still be able to play! Unlimited would still be a fine format, albeit with no play testing with newly printed cards. However, it would still have plenty of life to some people, and even to those who disagree like myself, it would allow the format to feel more fresh because it would be markedly differently from I/J-on.

Interesting. And it actually makes everyone happy, which is quite an accomplishment.

This is kind of like my idea just a lot better. If Redemption did this I would probably buy 200 packs of the new set. Redemption , IMO needs a reboot.

I could get behind this. It might even be enough to bring back a few of the players my group has lost. Of course it would make T2 somewhat difficult to play before the next set comes out, but we can wait until it comes out to start.

I will say, Cannot be Negated, while often very powerful, can be used responsibly to keep it under control, however it may not even be necessary without Negate All abilities (like Moses) so it would be really interesting to see what a Redemption Reboot Format would look like.

We also don't have to eliminate multiplayer, just push it to being more casual, like MtG.

To me, it seems like a Reboot from IJ up which makes sense. It will make it easier for RLKs and n00bs to get into the game. No NJ, no Falling Away, no Mayhem, etc. No sloppily worded cards that are hard to understand , all around a Reboot would help Redemption.

We could also make the reboot format type 3 because  type 3 is best 

Simeon and Anna both specifically refer to NT prophets, while Obadiah's Caves refers to OT prophets (I'm sure there are others that make the distinction, but these are the three I knew off the top of my head).

For those of us keeping score, Caves actually says "green prophets" and doesn't distinguish between O.T. and N.T. I don't think there are any other testament-specific prophet cards aside from Baptism of Jesus.

Let me see if I've got this correctly. A reboot is in essence a start over. Would there be any objection to using cards from before the reboot. Like,for example,Naomi from the women's set. She had no special abilities just numbers-4/4 I think. Could we still use cards that had no special abilities? Kinda a filler till more sets could be printed.

As for multi-player I'm all for it being removed,I enjoyed one-on-one play better and booster.

A reboot would mean KoT would receive a face lift,plus some new upgrades on old faces. Like 4 brigades on one character,King David anyone?

I really like the idea of a reboot. I think it is a necessary thing if we hope to have a vibrant Redemption see its 25th anniversary. I have three items for further discussion...

First,  I see you kept booster and sealed. I assume the booster would be the "unlimited" closed format and sealed would be the reboot one.  Is this correct?

Second, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to dump multi-player. Especially if the primary reason really is solely to make Nats scheduling more convenient. Having a good multi-player capability out of the box is a selling point for the game overall. In games that don't have it (e.g. Legend of the Five Rings) multi-player always ends up being one of the most requested items by the player base.

Third, I hope that any serious consideration of a game reboot would also include taking a fresh look at the distribution model as well. Right now the size of the player base makes Redemption borderline (at best) as a viable collectible game. Couple that with the huge shift in the Christian retail landscape over the past 20 years, and you have a real problem going forward.

I think redemption would be cooler to kids if the ultra-rares looked like this.

I would be happy with shiny ultra rares 

Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Exactly why the game isn't doing as good as it was 10 years ago.

Quote from: Westy on March 19, 2014, 08:06:52 PM

Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Exactly why the game isn't doing as good as it was 10 years ago.

My personal belief is that you have cause and effect reversed here.