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Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: AJ on March 12, 2014, 02:12:27 PM

Title: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 12, 2014, 02:12:27 PM
Yes it's 5 months away but the Kickstarter thread has confirmed that the new set is based off the early church and I am really excited about this. Hoping for a new good and/or evil brigade. What do guys think?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: _JM_ on March 12, 2014, 02:31:38 PM
I would rather not see any new brigades.  Ever.  There's already too many.  What would be great to see in an early church focused set would be a focus on blue that is not Genesis.  And I say that as a person who plays a ton of Genesis.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheJaylor on March 12, 2014, 02:47:50 PM
I think that new (a) brigade(s), especially evil, would help increase diversity. Although, I guess I'm mostly impartial because I'm a mostly Type 2 player in which there's already a pretty good amount of diversity, at least more so than type 1 in my opinion. I'd still like it though as well as improving the themes that definitely need improvement. From my perspective, it's not as much fun if you run into someone who's playing almost the exact same deck as you. I think most themes have plenty of cards that could be incorporated into a deck to make it viable so adding more would only keep people playing the same thing.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Drrek on March 12, 2014, 02:48:10 PM
I honestly don't understand the hate for a new brigade.  Does anyone really think if they printed an early church theme in blue that it would work at all with Genesis anyway?  The cards would in general be designed not to work with the theme they shared a brigade with, if they weren't printed in a new brigade, so it shouldn't really matter what brigade they are printed in.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: browarod on March 12, 2014, 03:45:03 PM
Depending on how awesome the early church cards are, and how restricted they make them (if used by a deacon, or some such), you might see more people using Claudia or the old blue Thomas if they printed the theme in blue. I don't think that's a bad thing. :P

Though if it's a new brigade I don't think that's an overall bad thing either, and a 210-card set seems large enough to give a new brigade enough starting support while still having some support for other themes/brigades.

EDIT: 210 is the right number, 220 was including the 10 extras reserved for promos/"chase" cards (whatever those are, lol).
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 12, 2014, 03:56:26 PM
A new brigade would be perfect for the game to freshen it up a bit. We just got new starter decks and a new foil ( or whatever it is ) right now with a new brigade would make the game easier to get into for RLKs and n00bs because all the good cards for the brigade would be in the newest packs. But all this just my opinion :).
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: ChristianSoldier on March 13, 2014, 12:46:22 AM
I would rather they not make any new brigades, we have more than enough brigades already (enough was 6 of each, but that's a whole other rant as to why I think that).

What I would like to see, if it is an Early Church theme: Something from every brigade about the early church, especially since the early church was a colorful place with people from every different nationality (at least within the area), walk of life and all that. I think this set should be a set focused on multiple colors working together in new and unique ways.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 13, 2014, 08:18:51 AM
Well it's already been said that no other themes will be printed in blue and since teal and silver are only for priests and angels and all the other colors have their N.T. themes I think it makes the most sense to make a new brigade.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: _JM_ on March 13, 2014, 09:20:45 AM
Well it's already been said that no other themes will be printed in blue and since teal and silver are only for priests and angels and all the other colors have their N.T. themes I think it makes the most sense to make a new brigade.

I think I remember reading something like that about blue, but could you link to where you read that, please?  My memory of that has more of a "there's a lot left in Genesis" and less of a "we're only doing Genesis" feel.

I agree with CS about brigade number.  That's why I'd rather not see another new brigade.  New interactions between brigades, sure.  New mechanic or two, absolutely.  I really want to see an emphasis on conversion in this set, maybe some new space in that area.  But another brigade?  Why?

AJ, like you said, each brigade (including silver and teal) has its own NT theme - except for blue.  Why print a whole new brigade when there's a gaping hole like that looking for a theme (say, Deacons)?  Fill out (read: establish) blue's NT theme, then focus on the interactions between all the NT themes (while printing cards that can be used, but aren't necessarily themed, for OT strategies).

Drrek, I don't necessarily care if a new blue theme works well with Genesis.  I do think there's enough flexibility in Genesis to allow for some cross-use (Abe's Kid should be in every blue centered deck; Jacob, Joseph, Forgiveness of Joseph are possible includes as well).  Plus, how often do you see Judges and Luke/John play together?  Or Daniel/NT Women?  You don't need to have OT/NT intra brigade themes that work well together.  I simply don't see the need for a new brigade.  It's bad design to just do something for the sake of doing it, which is what I feel printing a new brigade would be.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Drrek on March 13, 2014, 11:57:15 AM
You don't need to have OT/NT intra brigade themes that work well together.

That is exactly my point.  If the themes don't work well together, the actual brigade color is more or less irrelevant and mostly cosmetic, so it shouldn't matter if its a new color or not.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: _JM_ on March 13, 2014, 12:51:46 PM
You don't need to have OT/NT intra brigade themes that work well together.

That is exactly my point.  If the themes don't work well together, the actual brigade color is more or less irrelevant and mostly cosmetic, so it shouldn't matter if its a new color or not.

Booster.  Sealed.  That's where new brigade introduction matters.  Would you ever choose Priests packs for sealed?  I wasn't playing when Priests first came out, so I don't really know what booster was like then, but I do know that teal and orange are impossible to build around in booster (even with the tin, ironically enough).  They'll usually get a splash and no more in a deck (if that) since there isn't the card base for any more than that.  I strongly feel that a new booster set should focus on being great for Closed Deck play, and I don't believe that introducing a new brigade on either side would accomplish that.

Once again, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.  Do we need a new brigade?  Rob and the set designers are the only ones who can really answer that, but I believe that the answer is no.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheJaylor on March 13, 2014, 02:44:01 PM
You don't need to have OT/NT intra brigade themes that work well together.

That is exactly my point.  If the themes don't work well together, the actual brigade color is more or less irrelevant and mostly cosmetic, so it shouldn't matter if its a new color or not.

Booster.  Sealed.  That's where new brigade introduction matters.  Would you ever choose Priests packs for sealed?  I wasn't playing when Priests first came out, so I don't really know what booster was like then, but I do know that teal and orange are impossible to build around in booster (even with the tin, ironically enough).  They'll usually get a splash and no more in a deck (if that) since there isn't the card base for any more than that.  I strongly feel that a new booster set should focus on being great for Closed Deck play, and I don't believe that introducing a new brigade on either side would accomplish that.

Once again, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.  Do we need a new brigade?  Rob and the set designers are the only ones who can really answer that, but I believe that the answer is no.
I feel like we should worry about the open events before being concerned about the closed. While yes, Priests packs aren't too great in booster because they have teal/orange, they do have some other good cards that aren't teal/orange that are used fairly often--Wonders Forgotten, Forgotten History, Rain Becomes Dust, Judas Iscariot, Lampstand of the Sanctuary, High Priests' Plot, Unified Kingdom, The Bronze Lavar, the Lost Souls, etc. So I'm sure that if we do get a new brigade(s) that it won't be the end of the world for booster. For sealed, you typically get to choose the packs you take so if you take Priests then it's likely your mistake, unless you take 3 Priests, in which case you're likely to have gotten at least a few substantial teal/orange cards that you could use in your deck.

I guess you're right, we don't need a new brigade, but on the other hand, why not? I think it would add more diversity and I'm sure a new mechanic could be added in addition to the brigade(s). We started Territory Class enhancements in a 60 card set and this one will be over 200 so I'm sure that our elders and card-makers could incorporate both into a new set.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Drrek on March 13, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
If anything I actually like the dynamic priest puts into booster.  Are you going to be the guy who tries to supplement their offense with a healthy dose of the priests, or are you going to ignore them and focus on what you've already been building.  And then if you choose to go risky with the priests there's always the chance that some other guy decided he wanted some priests in his deck as well.

But I don't play much closed deck anymore so my opinion for closed deck isn't that important.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheMarti on March 13, 2014, 03:23:20 PM
But say that the game is getting to the end of its lifespan (which, from some of the responses that we've had, it sounds like that this is likely). What good would adding a new brigade do? Many of us will continue to play if the game doesn't continue past this set, but if we only get a small handful of cards in a new colored brigade, those cards will really just have been a waste of time and space. If we knew the game was going on another 10 years, it may be a good idea, but at this point, it's likely just better to stick with what we've got.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 13, 2014, 03:39:02 PM
If anything I actually like the dynamic priest puts into booster.  Are you going to be the guy who tries to supplement their offense with a healthy dose of the priests, or are you going to ignore them and focus on what you've already been building.  And then if you choose to go risky with the priests there's always the chance that some other guy decided he wanted some priests in his deck as well.

But I don't play much closed deck anymore so my opinion for closed deck isn't that important.

So agree more brigades makes for more booster strategy. I do not believe the game is at the end of its life span, remember when Warriors saved the game ? All we need is a good set to freshen the game up and I think a new brigade would do just that.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Ironica on March 13, 2014, 04:06:23 PM
Another downside with adding a new brigade is the power creep.  You will have to super charge the new cards to get them even with everything else (remember the complaints about how strong Teal was at first).  If the NT theme is built around an existing brigade, they don't have to be as powerful as people will have other options for characters/enhancements to add to the new cards.  Also, I believe that new brigades should be introduced in tins or starter decks so my frustrations with teal.orange in the priest set won't happen again (where I buy/win/trade/whatever for a bunch of priest packs and end up receiving a large amount of the same common cards that, TBH, are worthless to me).

Does the OT/NT per brigade only reach the good brigades?  Wouldn't be nice to have the same thing happen to the evil ones (AFAIK, black is really the only one with a strong OT and a strong NT theme).
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Drrek on March 13, 2014, 04:21:15 PM

Does the OT/NT per brigade only reach the good brigades?

There's not even an OT/NT per brigade for most of the good ones. Blue, Teal and Red only have OT themes (yeah Red has Centurions but I'm not going to count that as a theme until it gets more than 3 cards). Silver's only theme is exclusive to neither old nor new testament.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: _JM_ on March 13, 2014, 04:38:25 PM
I feel like we should worry about the open events before being concerned about the closed. While yes, Priests packs aren't too great in booster because they have teal/orange, they do have some other good cards that aren't teal/orange that are used fairly often--Wonders Forgotten, Forgotten History, Rain Becomes Dust, Judas Iscariot, Lampstand of the Sanctuary, High Priests' Plot, Unified Kingdom, The Bronze Lavar, the Lost Souls, etc. So I'm sure that if we do get a new brigade(s) that it won't be the end of the world for booster. For sealed, you typically get to choose the packs you take so if you take Priests then it's likely your mistake, unless you take 3 Priests, in which case you're likely to have gotten at least a few substantial teal/orange cards that you could use in your deck.

Disagree with your first sentence (obviously ;)).  Focusing on influencing open categories tends to bring power creep and complexity creep.  I don't really have to point any farther back the Tin Release 2 to show that point.  I/J is the only set released since I started playing (2008) that actually attempted to cater to new players.  I'm arguing for a focus on Closed categories so that the momentum of power and complexity creep are slowed down. That would continue I/J's (pretty good) work in lowering the barrier to entry for new players.

Side note that's connected to power/complexity creep - this set represents a fantastic opportunity to start set rotation, since we've got a new layout.  Would be great to be see straight reprints (with proper wording/errata changes, of course) in the new layout.  But that's a whole different discussion that we can have after this one settles down.

Regarding sealed - yeah, it's a pretty big mistake to splash one Priests pack, and probably even two, into your pool.  Even three is nowhere close to optimal.  Shouldn't NewSet be a viable option for sealed with I/J, though?  I don't see how adding a new brigade pushes NewSet past the Priests level in pack selection.  Business logic alert - go with the direction that makes more money.  NewSet works well in sealed with I/J?  Great, that's more new product that's moving off the shelf, increasing the chances we see NewSet2015.

Booster - yes, there are absolutely some fantastic cards in Priests.  I'm not saying it's a garbage pack for booster, just that the biggest feature of the set is not all that booster friendly.  Side note - I really, really want to do an all-Priests booster now.  Then an all-Kings to compare.  Interested in seeing how that would play out.  I think Priests would warp around Teal and (to a lesser extent) Orange, but I don't know that for sure.  Alternate draft formats FTW.

Quote
I guess you're right, we don't need a new brigade, but on the other hand, why not? I think it would add more diversity and I'm sure a new mechanic could be added in addition to the brigade(s). We started Territory Class enhancements in a 60 card set and this one will be over 200 so I'm sure that our elders and card-makers could incorporate both into a new set.

Adding TC - addresses a clear need (utility enhancements not seeing play due to initiative system), doesn't require a whole lot of cards to start showcasing (and even opened up some older cards to the mechanical idea with High Places).

Adding new brigade - significant card commitment that does NOT address a clear need.  The only need I'm seeing in this thread is that "it would be cool".  That's a terrible reason to make any design decision.

But I don't play much closed deck anymore so my opinion for closed deck isn't that important.

Heh, I don't play much Redemption anymore (last game was maybe around Thanksgiving?), so my opinion in general probably doesn't mean a lot, either.  ;)

So agree more brigades makes for more booster strategy. I do not believe the game is at the end of its life span, remember when Warriors saved the game ? All we need is a good set to freshen the game up and I think a new brigade would do just that.

I'll agree that we need a good set to freshen up the game, but keep in mind that a new brigade does not define a good set.  There's positives and negatives to that sort of introduction.  For a new brigade to make sense, it has to be the best solution for a particular need.  I don't see where we need a new brigade in the same way we needed something like Territory Class enhancements.

Ha, Ironica beat me to the power creep stuff since I took forever writing this wall of text.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: galadgawyn on March 13, 2014, 07:05:34 PM
I agree with JM (and like your wall of text so I don't have to write that now!)

I actually think that separating all the themes and ideas into different brigades often leads to less strategy and interesting deck ideas.  If someone is playing Genesis, disciples, or when they first came out Priests then you pretty much know what their deck is.  If a strong theme is spread across several brigades then you have a choice between using the part of the theme in your brigade or going multi to use more of the theme.  Would The Garden Tomb really have been better if all the characters were in a single color?  Priests overcame this problem by eventually adding enough cards to have multiple sub-themes within their brigade and others that pair well with other colors.

If the new set adds a new brigade then over half the new cards would need to be in that color to support it well since it won't already have a base of cards to work with.  It also means you have less design space to develop new mechanic or theme ideas since so much of the space is used for establishing the color.  I'd much rather see the space used for developing deacons, heretics, martyrs, Romans, conversion, I'm sure there is more......
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 13, 2014, 07:42:45 PM
IIRC, there had been official talk about a new brigade. Something about Clay?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 13, 2014, 07:48:03 PM
IIRC, there had been official talk about a new brigade. Something about Clay?

That's what I heard as well. Frankly I like the idea of a new brigade. If you have enough people in your playgroup that refuse to use the same brigades, then you need more alternatives anyway. I was skeptical when teal and orange were first released, but they simply make me think "Priests" and "Demons" now, so I think Clay will promote the same attitude with time.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Chris on March 13, 2014, 08:16:14 PM
For what it's worth, I'm against introducing a new brigade. My understanding is that the reason for a Clay brigade (which I have been told by an Elder is confirmed) is Rob feels that Genesis is large enough to encompass one brigade by itself (blue). Respectfully, I disagree with this logic. For the last several years, the playtesters have began fitting themes into brigades, to the point where for the most part, every brigade has two major themes associated with it, one OT and one NT. Here are the good brigades/themes as I see them:

Purple: Royalty/Disciples
Red: Warriors/Centurions
Green: OT Prophets/NT Prophets
Gold: Judges/Luke & John
White: Ruth, Musicians/TGT
Silver: Angels
Teal: Priests/???
Blue: Genesis, Job/???

Silver is an exception due to the role that angels play within Redemption, specifically as a support brigade. If we ever get that full-fledged Revelation theme, I imagine that it would largely fit into there. This leaves two brigades without a NT theme: Teal and Blue. I would argue that Teal is perhaps the only good brigade in the game that doesn't need a formal NT theme, as there are very few "good" priests mentioned in the NT, and teal was developed as a brigade exclusively for priests (as YMT mentioned, "Priests" and "Teal" are essentially synonymous in Redemption).

That only leaves one brigade without a good reason for a NT theme: Blue. There's some precedence for an Early Church theme in the blue brigade, the most popular of which is Nicholas of Antioch. As I mentioned above, Rob's logic has generally been that Genesis is too large to share the blue brigade with any other theme, and I just don't think this logic takes. It's a huge bastion for card ideas to be sure, but so is Prophets or Royalty, and those still comfortable share a brigade with another theme (many Prophets cards are divided between OT and NT, and I think it stands to reason that they are two different themes, especially if you're a T2 player). Because cards have moved towards division via themes as well as brigades (e.g. cards that reference Judges or Prophets, rather than just gold or green heroes), I see no reason that an early church theme can't do the same thing, while taking advantage of the handful of useable blue cards that aren't Genesis exclusive.

Introducing a new brigade spits in the face of precedence, creates a wider gap between the number of good and evil brigades, and will only serve to create more to keep track of.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Knoxyouthpastor on March 14, 2014, 01:49:22 PM
I'll throw my $.02 in here as well. New brigade? Yes, fun...Necessary? No! The new set should focus on strengthening what we have already that lacks strength. For instance Red NT...if they were to go to a NT Early Church Theme, the Centurions would fit. We also have a few blue NT cards as well that would work. I do like the idea of making the Early Church Theme diverse in color. Centurions/Red, Simon of Cyrene/Blue?, make Aquila & Priscilla better, a new Timothy...+ more. Fix and expand what we have to make for better play. JMI.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 14, 2014, 01:53:27 PM
As I mentioned above, Rob's logic has generally been that Genesis is too large to share the blue brigade with any other theme, and I just don't think this logic takes. It's a huge bastion for card ideas to be sure, but so is Prophets or Royalty, and those still comfortable share a brigade with another theme (many Prophets cards are divided between OT and NT, and I think it stands to reason that they are two different themes, especially if you're a T2 player).
Your choice to break Green into OT Prophets/NT Prophets as opposed to just prophets and Red into Warriors/Centurions instead of just warriors, strikes me as a bit of special pleading in an attempt to make your case. There are very few cards (compared to the size of the card pool) that treat OT and NT prophets separately, and the same can be said for Warriors/Centurions.  This is in marked contrast to brigades which actually have separate OT/NT themes (think Gold and how many cards are specifically designed for Judges or Luke heroes).

Second, if you look at the reasons behind choosing Disciples, Judges, etc. in the I/J set, I think it is fairly clear that when Rob talks about size he essentially means story space. If you ask Christians in general about these items you will find that for royalty there are essentially two archetypes--the kingdom triumphant (David and Solomon) and the kingdom broken (all the rest)--that serve as distinct story spaces.  In prophets there are possibly three (Elijah vs OT Prophets vs John the Baptist), but most times people would categorize them as the prophets with no such breakdown. Judges are almost universally lumped together. Genesis, on the other hand, features Creation, Noah, Abraham/Isaac, and Jacob and kids all as distinct well-known story lines.

FWIW, I don't feel a new brigade at this time is warranted--but I want to be fair to the arguments that are being made for one.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Alex_Olijar on March 14, 2014, 04:57:17 PM
Set rotation imo
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: ChristianSoldier on March 14, 2014, 05:29:16 PM
Set rotation imo

Set rotation could be a big help for Redemption, at least from a game play standpoint. However I don't know how it would affect the business side of it, since it works best if the sets consistently sell out as they rotate so that when the sets rotate Cactus Games doesn't end up with boxes of unsold cards that nobody wants because the cards aren't legal anymore. However that isn't much different than having boxes of unsold cards because the cards are mostly obsolete.

We could also do some kind of middle ground, like MtG does, where 1 format has everything, and 1 format has the last N sets, broken up further into T1, T2, multi, the various closed deck formats. The bigger issue is that we need both the players to accept it and the designers to back it up by building sets that support the set rotation.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Alex_Olijar on March 14, 2014, 05:38:03 PM
I should have finished my set rotation article. It works.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 14, 2014, 06:17:56 PM
Set rotation works for games that have a large enough pool of cards that are able to sustain themselves if another select block of cards were rotated out. Since Redemption sets were never designed with that in mind coupled with the fact expansions are released few and far between (with the latest sets containing fewer cards in comparison to previous earlier sets), it would be a huge undertaking and take a massive overhaul from a design standpoint to implement set rotation. What, we'd be looking at block rotation every 4-5 years with the rate of expansions/cards we get at this point?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Warrior_Monk on March 14, 2014, 06:56:00 PM
Who said we needed a consistent rotation? It isn't about game balancing, it's about getting rid of cards that have messy wording and giving more possibilities for future sets.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 14, 2014, 07:25:45 PM
If people are behind the idea of purging from the game just the 'messy' worded cards with no correlation to actual gameplay balancing, then we should probably avoid using the phrase 'set rotation' as that is exactly what the idea champions: removing a block of cards in exchange for a future block. Consistently.

And here I thought recent reprints already addressed the issue of sloppily worded cards.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 14, 2014, 07:40:20 PM
We could do a Reboot block which has only cards from IJ up and have traditional Redemption which all cards can be used in just a thought.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Sadness on March 14, 2014, 07:54:58 PM
Is the new set going to be released in tins or packs(like priests) or box packs(like Texp)?

Also is the new brigade cover both sides? The only difference to tell it apart is the cross or dragon on the card.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 14, 2014, 08:00:53 PM
Is the new set going to be released in tins or packs(like priests) or box packs(like Texp)?

Also is the new brigade cover both sides? The only difference to tell it apart is the cross or dragon on the card.

Well there is no definite brigade and if there was, it would most likely be a good brigade.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: _JM_ on March 14, 2014, 10:23:42 PM
Is the new set going to be released in tins or packs(like priests) or box packs(like Texp)?

Read the kickstarter thread right below this one for the full discussion, but at this point it seems like we're getting either a Priests style or TexP style expansion.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 15, 2014, 02:03:39 AM
I should have finished my set rotation article. It works.
The LCG distribution model works even better.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: ChristianSoldier on March 15, 2014, 12:17:39 PM
I disagree. LCGs never outsell MTG and MtG uses set rotation so I say go set rotation route I would play.

That's not a fair comparison, MtG has been an established game for quite a long time, while most LCGs are relatively new and still fairly small. To try and compare Set Rotation to LCG format by comparing how MtG sales compare to any LCG is completely ridiculous.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Isildur on March 15, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
I disagree. LCGs never outsell MTG and MtG uses set rotation so I say go set rotation route I would play.
?? Where did that come from? Magic outsells every game on the planet because it has a gigantic player base spanning over the past 20 years lol... ::)
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheMarti on March 15, 2014, 12:24:11 PM
I should have finished my set rotation article. It works.
The LCG distribution model works even better.


I disagree. LCGs never outsell MTG and MtG uses set rotation so I say go set rotation route I would play.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

First off, please be more polite. Yes, that piece of information was stated without a lot of knowledge of the industry, but it's no reason to act rude.

Second, if you don't know what you're talking about (which, with some people's age and lack of experience, you may not), think before you post, please. Don't just talk to talk. 
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 15, 2014, 02:29:36 PM
I removed my post. I apologize for not responding more kindly to preposterous statements. If it helps, I actually did laugh out loud when I read the comment I was responding to.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: The Guardian on March 15, 2014, 03:01:06 PM
I removed my post. I apologize for not responding more kindly to preposterous statements. If it helps, I actually did laugh out loud when I read the comment I was responding to.

Those who have met you know that your cheery laugh comes across so much better in person than online  ;)
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Korunks on March 15, 2014, 03:11:53 PM
I fail to understand how an LCG model would be superior unless we had a new start point.  Pardon my ignorance but in an LCG all printed cards are viable for tournament play?  If that is the case then it appears the problem isn't with either distribution model IMO, it's with the fact that some of the older cards in redemption are either outdated in their wording or they are too strong.

  If a new format were to be unveiled (With the idea in mind of maintaining an unrestricted format that is like the current play style) given our current setup wouldn't a ban list be more effective?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Alex_Olijar on March 15, 2014, 04:29:49 PM
I fail to understand how an LCG model would be superior unless we had a new start point.  Pardon my ignorance but in an LCG all printed cards are viable for tournament play?  If that is the case then it appears the problem isn't with either distribution model IMO, it's with the fact that some of the older cards in redemption are either outdated in their wording or they are too strong.

  If a new format were to be unveiled (With the idea in mind of maintaining an unrestricted format that is like the current play style) given our current setup wouldn't a ban list be more effective?

I'll finish my article about this I guess haha. But the answer is no.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 15, 2014, 04:40:34 PM
If that is the case then it appears the problem isn't with either distribution model IMO, it's with the fact that some of the older cards in redemption are either outdated in their wording or they are too strong.

If a new format were to be unveiled (With the idea in mind of maintaining an unrestricted format that is like the current play style) given our current setup wouldn't a ban list be more effective?

The way the game is currently designed it would be the most logical, a la Yugioh style. And as you mentioned, you can also keep a more 'traditional' format with no ban list that retains every card.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheMarti on March 15, 2014, 05:45:04 PM
All unrelated posts have been removed, including my own. Please stay on topic.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 15, 2014, 05:59:27 PM
I fail to understand how an LCG model would be superior unless we had a new start point.  Pardon my ignorance but in an LCG all printed cards are viable for tournament play?  If that is the case then it appears the problem isn't with either distribution model IMO, it's with the fact that some of the older cards in redemption are either outdated in their wording or they are too strong.
I believe we would need to have a new start point for an LCG model to work. This doesn't necessarily mean a completely new print set, but could be a selective pruning of what is currently available. For players that already own cards, this could take the form of a ban list. There would need to be some means, however, for new players to get a hold of the base set.

Quote
If a new format were to be unveiled (With the idea in mind of maintaining an unrestricted format that is like the current play style) given our current setup wouldn't a ban list be more effective?
I think we need to wait for Olijar to explain more about what he is thinking. From Westy's comments it appears to be some form of rolling ban list coinciding with the introduction of new sets.

We could do a Reboot block which has only cards from IJ up and have traditional Redemption which all cards can be used in just a thought.
Given the 90+ unique cards in I/J plus Rob's 200+ card set, a reboot block of this type would be roughly the size of Unlimited + Prophets + 1/2 of Women. This is plenty of cards for a viable game.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 15, 2014, 06:45:02 PM
I would not be opposed to a reboot. Especially given the new card format in IJ, it could be the aesthetic mark of a new start.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 15, 2014, 06:54:54 PM
I would not be opposed to a reboot. Especially given the new card format in IJ, it could be the aesthetic mark of a new start.

So agree it would be awesome to Reboot. No more Thad !
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Isildur on March 15, 2014, 08:33:13 PM
Given the 90+ unique cards in I/J plus Rob's 200+ card set, a reboot block of this type would be roughly the size of Unlimited + Prophets + 1/2 of Women. This is plenty of cards for a viable game.
As much as I would like a reboot the set currently in the works is not a reboot set...

Maybe we the players could help draft a potential reboot set we could use as alternative? The selling format would obviously have to be different though then the planned TexP style packs for the current set...
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 16, 2014, 10:45:00 PM
Given the 90+ unique cards in I/J plus Rob's 200+ card set, a reboot block of this type would be roughly the size of Unlimited + Prophets + 1/2 of Women. This is plenty of cards for a viable game.
As much as I would like a reboot the set currently in the works is not a reboot set...
That does appear to be the case.

Quote
Maybe we the players could help draft a potential reboot set we could use as alternative?
I think it might be more feasible to try to convince the PTB to consider setting the early church set aside for the time being and work on a reboot set. This would be with the hope that the reboot would attract a new set of players and re-vitalize Redemption overall in ways an expansion could not. To this end, one huge advantage of a reboot set is that it is easier to market a "new-ish" game to a new player base (and on Kickstarter) than it would be to market the 16th?!? expansion to a game.

Quote

The selling format would obviously have to be different though then the planned TexP style packs for the current set...
Although I think I have previously made my feelings clear on how I think Redemption could best be marketed going forward, I don't think that you would necessarily have to change from a TexP style pack if people chose not to. You could simply define the a base set of existing cards that you want to include in a reboot (and give them a cool marketing name like "Redemption Retro"), and splash them into the reboot packs.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: DrowningFish on March 16, 2014, 10:55:04 PM
I find it weird that there's 7 evil brigades but 8 good brigades . Just want it to be even (sorry bout the OCD) but I believe making a new brigade does need to happen soon. Give the game a new "zing" to it
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Alex_Olijar on March 17, 2014, 09:39:06 AM
This is a super lazy and bad complete of my start, but this will get the idea across and saves tons of time. Just ask questions and I can try to more clearly flesh out what I am thinking. Mostly I just didn't include any of the examples of why this idea is awesome in my opinion (like how BTN characters wouldn't exist...).

For those who don’t know, set rotation is removing old cards from tournament legal play to keep the tournament format fresh, healthy, and to encourage purchase of newer cards. It is used in many CCGs. Traditionally it has not been used in Redemption because Rob Anderson, Redemption’s creator, would like any pack purchased to be legal for tournament play so people don’t feel like they are wasting money.

To be fair, what I will propose isn’t technically set rotation because I don’t necessarily want sets to be rotated out consistently (although it might be needed). To understand my point of view, let’s examine some of the problems that Redemption has been experiencing lately from a gameplay perspective.

Currently, the game is in a bit of doldrums. To be honest, it’s fairly bland. It’s incredibly unbalanced, certain cards in the meta limit creativity in deck building, the games last a long time, and there’s a very small percentage of cards that are actually good (a group of cards that hardly ever changes). Many solutions have been suggested to alleviate some of these issues. The most common is a ban list. Many people think that if we just banned a few cards, the game would be much healthier. However, I do not believe that’s the case.

While ban lists are certainly effective in some games, there are several reasons why I believe it would not work for Redemption
-you wouldn’t ever actually ban the most powerful cards (dominants)
-there isn’t a clear way to ban cards since many cards do the same thing (Moses would almost certainly be banned in any list I made, yet Ira never would – they aren’t the same card, but they are close!)
-previous fan made ban list formats have been unenjoyable at best because the games are even slower than they currently are

Regardless of if you agree or not, I’m just going to go right into my proposal. Technically this isn’t really my proposal for the most part, but rather a group thought that developed over the summer, but I’m not at liberty to discuss who it came from. It is important to note that this idea is probably not able to be implemented until another 1-2 set releases.

1.   Create a “new” format. This format would be the rotated format. The format would begin at I/J starter decks. This is the perfect starting point because a new card look was introduced, making  it obvious which cards are legal in this new format. You could also continue to play tournaments in the “unlimited” format with all cards legal for those who would like to do so.
2.   Eliminate multiplayer. I probably enjoy type 1 MP as much as anyone in the world, but it’s broken. It’s just not how the game is designed to be played. Ditto for Teams. As for T2 MP, if the game is played properly, it should never finish in time barring weird draws, so even the better meta still makes for painful games.

What would this accomplish? Well, any abilities not in print as of I/J could just never be printed again. Can not be negated could be effectively eliminated, because very few cards currently have it printed in the ability post I/J. Because the format would currently be fairly small, good card design could create the healthiest format every seen without having to really worry about all kinds of archaic cards like ANB or Moses or BtC ruining a fine card and making it overpowered or modified to such an extent that it’s simply not good anymore. Honestly, the format could become virtually anything. I personally hope it would become a format where games end in a shorter period of time, and card design isn’t flawed at almost every turn due to attempts to properly power new cards. It has so much promise

But I also proposed eliminating multiplayer. Why? Well, with these two actions, the categories would now be as follows:

I/J-on format (T1 and T2), Unlimited format (T1 and T2), Closed Deck (Sealed and Booster)

Look how cleanly that works out for Nationals! Day 1 is closed deck, Day 2 is unlimited, and Day 3 is I/J-on! Wow! Sounds awesome.

It would allow those who oppose the rotation to still be able to play! Unlimited would still be a fine format, albeit with no play testing with newly printed cards. However, it would still have plenty of life to some people, and even to those who disagree like myself, it would allow the format to feel more fresh because it would be markedly differently from I/J-on.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: jbeers285 on March 17, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
I'm 1000% in line with this idea! Heard some guys talking about this at nats last year and agreed with it then and it looks even better right now!
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Minion of Jesus on March 17, 2014, 01:04:26 PM
Interesting. And it actually makes everyone happy, which is quite an accomplishment.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: browarod on March 17, 2014, 01:55:05 PM
Interesting. And it actually makes everyone happy, which is quite an accomplishment.
Not everyone. I'd miss MP terribly, lol. I'm much more of a MP fan than a 2P fan due to the differing strategies. I think having the second, limited, format could be a good idea, though.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 17, 2014, 03:24:33 PM
This is kind of like my idea just a lot better. If Redemption did this I would probably buy 200 packs of the new set. Redemption , IMO needs a reboot.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Ironica on March 17, 2014, 03:33:56 PM
I would enjoy the new format.  It would make the games more interesting since it knocks out NJ, FA, Burial, CM, HT, AOCP, etc.  It would also make my families decks even as we would have only a small pool of the same cards (that makes more sense in my head than it does here :P).  I might just dispense with most of my collection to save some space (and help others like before).

The down side for me is the huge amounts of cards I will have to get to make my T2 decks and my T1 decks.

As for MP, though I do enjoy T2 multi (I don't really play T1 anymore at tournaments), I wouldn't miss it that much.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: ChristianSoldier on March 17, 2014, 03:46:09 PM
I could get behind this. It might even be enough to bring back a few of the players my group has lost. Of course it would make T2 somewhat difficult to play before the next set comes out, but we can wait until it comes out to start.

I will say, Cannot be Negated, while often very powerful, can be used responsibly to keep it under control, however it may not even be necessary without Negate All abilities (like Moses) so it would be really interesting to see what a Redemption Reboot Format would look like.

We also don't have to eliminate multiplayer, just push it to being more casual, like MtG.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 17, 2014, 04:50:48 PM
This is kind of like my idea just a lot better.

The proposal is exactly as you suggested and many of the collected thoughts in this thread. The point of removing playtypes to make room for a new format in tournament play is a given, and the matter of which to remove is more based on subjectivity it appears. I also keep seeing 'set rotation' and 'rotated  format', but I'm unclear what that actually means for a new format as that wasn't expanded on at all. Will there be consistent set rotation? How will it be done? Or is this simply just a Modern reboot starting from I/J?

We also don't have to eliminate multiplayer, just push it to being more casual, like MtG.

Agreed, like Commander. Commander is not a super competitive format, but really popular in casual play.

Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 17, 2014, 06:31:46 PM
To me, it seems like a Reboot from IJ up which makes sense. It will make it easier for RLKs and n00bs to get into the game. No NJ, no Falling Away, no Mayhem, etc. No sloppily worded cards that are hard to understand , all around a Reboot would help Redemption.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Drrek on March 17, 2014, 08:01:25 PM
I love the pretty much every idea from Olijar's post (though that's totally not set rotation, and it bothers me that you only say it technically isn't set rotation.  It just plain isn't set rotation).  The only reason I'd be opposed to a reboot from I/J would be because of the money and effort I've put into my collection and decks from pre-I/J but an official unrestricted type takes away those concerns.  And while that format might have a terrible unbalanced meta, that isn't really that much different from the current meta and I'd still have fun playing in it anyway.  Also I would love if multiplayer were eliminated as official categories.  It frees up time in tournaments for better categories by eliminating what is in my opinion the weakest of all categories.  Multiplayer might be fun in casual play, but I personally don't think it deserves a place in official categories.  So all in all I am a fan of the idea of a reboot using post-I/J as long as we keep a format for pre-I/J.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 18, 2014, 03:02:02 PM
We could also make the reboot format type 3 because  type 3 is best  :angel:
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Chris on March 18, 2014, 03:34:24 PM
MJB, in response to your post here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/off-topic/new-set-speculation/msg523331/#msg523331), the reason I made a distinction between OT and NT prophets is because the game itself does. Simeon and Anna both specifically refer to NT prophets, while Obadiah's Caves refers to OT prophets (I'm sure there are others that make the distinction, but these are the three I knew off the top of my head). Admittedly, NT prophets is extremely underdeveloped, but that distinction still exists. I distinguished between Warriors and Centurions because I'd heard that distinction used before. Looking at the cards again, I agree that there really isn't one. I stick by that point though, especially because the evil brigades follow a similar model.

I also agree that Genesis has a lot of distinct stories, but I also think that the vast majority of them could not support a theme on their own. The Creation account has a lot of potential for cards, but very few characters (Adam, Eve, Seth, and Abel). The interim between Creation and Noah has a lot of characters, but I think that other than a few of them (Methuselah, Enoch, and Jubal are the only three I can think of, though I'm sure there are one or two more), using characters that exist only in a genealogy is unnecessary. Noah is the only story within Genesis that I think could support it's own theme (other than Jacob's sons [who arguably shouldn't even be heroes], and that ship has sailed). While there's a lot of card ideas that could be taken from Genesis, I don't believe that they could really be set up as distinct sub-themes aside from Noah's Ark, and thus, I believe blue brigade could support Genesis, Job, and a Noah's Ark sub-theme, and a NT theme as well, especially when the vast majority of usable blue enhancements right now are Genesis-exclusive.

In regards to Alex's idea, I'm really torn about the idea of a reboot with a legacy format. On the one hand, the idea of starting from scratch is extremely appealing since T1 is basically broken. Learning from nearly 20 years of mistakes and starting fresh isn't a horrible idea. On the other hand, one of the things that makes Redemption fun for me (especially compared to Pokemon, the only other CCG I've gotten into) is the extremely deep card pool. Yes, most of the cards aren't really usable, but occasionally a card that hardly anyone uses suddenly becomes really popular when it's "discovered" (Simeon is the perfect example of that). Not knowing exactly what you'll encounter at high level tournaments is extremely fun and something I find lacking in Pokemon. Yes, there would still be a legacy format, but it would be broken without proper playtesting. I would rather see early sets with weird wording banned, along with a few choice other cards for balance's sake, and the usable cards from those early sets reprinted with proper wording.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheJaylor on March 18, 2014, 04:15:56 PM
Simeon and Anna both specifically refer to NT prophets, while Obadiah's Caves refers to OT prophets (I'm sure there are others that make the distinction, but these are the three I knew off the top of my head).
For those of us keeping score, Caves actually says "green prophets" and doesn't distinguish between O.T. and N.T. I don't think there are any other testament-specific prophet cards aside from Baptism of Jesus.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Chris on March 18, 2014, 04:30:58 PM
Simeon and Anna both specifically refer to NT prophets, while Obadiah's Caves refers to OT prophets (I'm sure there are others that make the distinction, but these are the three I knew off the top of my head).
For those of us keeping score, Caves actually says "green prophets" and doesn't distinguish between O.T. and N.T. I don't think there are any other testament-specific prophet cards aside from Baptism of Jesus.

Everything I know is a lie.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Sadness on March 18, 2014, 08:39:42 PM
Let me see if I've got this correctly. A reboot is in essence a start over. Would there be any objection to using cards from before the reboot. Like,for example,Naomi from the women's set. She had no special abilities just numbers-4/4 I think. Could we still use cards that had no special abilities? Kinda a filler till more sets could be printed.

As for multi-player I'm all for it being removed,I enjoyed one-on-one play better and booster.

A reboot would mean KoT would receive a face lift,plus some new upgrades on old faces. Like 4 brigades on one character,King David anyone?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: jbeers285 on March 18, 2014, 09:21:34 PM
With no CB-(whatever) and no preblok ignore we may be able to do a 4 brigade David without it being totally abusable!
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 18, 2014, 11:15:09 PM
I really like the idea of a reboot. I think it is a necessary thing if we hope to have a vibrant Redemption see its 25th anniversary. I have three items for further discussion...

First,  I see you kept booster and sealed. I assume the booster would be the "unlimited" closed format and sealed would be the reboot one.  Is this correct?

Second, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to dump multi-player. Especially if the primary reason really is solely to make Nats scheduling more convenient. Having a good multi-player capability out of the box is a selling point for the game overall. In games that don't have it (e.g. Legend of the Five Rings) multi-player always ends up being one of the most requested items by the player base.

Third, I hope that any serious consideration of a game reboot would also include taking a fresh look at the distribution model as well. Right now the size of the player base makes Redemption borderline (at best) as a viable collectible game. Couple that with the huge shift in the Christian retail landscape over the past 20 years, and you have a real problem going forward.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Isildur on March 18, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
Third, I hope that any serious consideration of a game reboot would also include taking a fresh look at the distribution model as well. Right now the size of the player base makes Redemption borderline (at best) as a viable collectible game. Couple that with the huge shift in the Christian retail landscape over the past 20 years, and you have a real problem going forward.
I fully agree! The main reason we are getting a expansion in a similar form like TexP is because of cost. Would rebooting the game actually be fiscally smart?

I mean look at what happened when VS rebooted DC and Marvel both died within 1-2 expansions of being rebooted... Decipher games are also a good example of how not to reboot... cough Lord of the Rings TCG, Star Trek Version 2.0 and Star Wars CCG.

On the other hand you can look at Legend of the Five Rings, HeroClix, Game of Thrones or Netrunner. Those four games have never been more popular than they are now!

BTW is anyone even actively working on the new set? At the moment it seems like it's kind of turning into the "Hunters" block for the former Lord of the Rings TCG :'(
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Danny Mercury on March 19, 2014, 12:03:52 PM
I think redemption would be cooler to kids if the ultra-rares looked like this.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.org%2Fd8hl7yswp%2Fmichael.png&hash=9133edf576bc7d78230d2797e87890236db3af72)
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Nameless on March 19, 2014, 12:25:13 PM
I think redemption would be cooler to kids if the ultra-rares looked like this.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.org%2Fd8hl7yswp%2Fmichael.png&hash=9133edf576bc7d78230d2797e87890236db3af72)
It would be cool if the ultra rares were borderless, and actually ultra rare.  :P
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 19, 2014, 07:26:05 PM
I would be happy with shiny ultra rares  8)

Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Warrior_Monk on March 19, 2014, 08:06:52 PM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 19, 2014, 09:13:56 PM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Exactly why the game isn't doing as good as it was 10 years ago.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Danny Mercury on March 19, 2014, 09:23:34 PM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Exactly why the game isn't doing as good as it was 10 years ago.
Haha or maybe because there's more high tech things for nerds than card games nowadays

Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 19, 2014, 10:29:25 PM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Exactly why the game isn't doing as good as it was 10 years ago.
My personal belief is that you have cause and effect reversed here.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 20, 2014, 04:50:08 PM
Anywho..... The real question is will Rob reboot the game? I do not care at this point if the cards are in randomized packs rapped in bacon or if they are in LCG format. I just really want a reboot.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 20, 2014, 07:21:14 PM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Now they are full-body art with neat little ripples in the cards....  ;)
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 20, 2014, 10:27:35 PM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Now they are full-body art with neat little ripples in the cards....  ;)

No your thinking of ........ A wrong thread :P
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Alex_Olijar on March 21, 2014, 08:17:09 AM
I love the pretty much every idea from Olijar's post (though that's totally not set rotation, and it bothers me that you only say it technically isn't set rotation.  It just plain isn't set rotation).  The only reason I'd be opposed to a reboot from I/J would be because of the money and effort I've put into my collection and decks from pre-I/J but an official unrestricted type takes away those concerns.  And while that format might have a terrible unbalanced meta, that isn't really that much different from the current meta and I'd still have fun playing in it anyway.  Also I would love if multiplayer were eliminated as official categories.  It frees up time in tournaments for better categories by eliminating what is in my opinion the weakest of all categories.  Multiplayer might be fun in casual play, but I personally don't think it deserves a place in official categories.  So all in all I am a fan of the idea of a reboot using post-I/J as long as we keep a format for pre-I/J.

It's not "set rotation" because Redemption doesn't have "sets". Otherwise, I think it is.

I really like the idea of a reboot. I think it is a necessary thing if we hope to have a vibrant Redemption see its 25th anniversary. I have three items for further discussion...

First,  I see you kept booster and sealed. I assume the booster would be the "unlimited" closed format and sealed would be the reboot one.  Is this correct?

Second, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to dump multi-player. Especially if the primary reason really is solely to make Nats scheduling more convenient. Having a good multi-player capability out of the box is a selling point for the game overall. In games that don't have it (e.g. Legend of the Five Rings) multi-player always ends up being one of the most requested items by the player base.

Third, I hope that any serious consideration of a game reboot would also include taking a fresh look at the distribution model as well. Right now the size of the player base makes Redemption borderline (at best) as a viable collectible game. Couple that with the huge shift in the Christian retail landscape over the past 20 years, and you have a real problem going forward.

1. Hadn't thought about the formats for sealed and booster, I personally would be fine with eliminating both, I just figured people wouldn't like that. What you say makes sense though.

2. You can still include MP rules in the book but there's no reason to play an inferior version of the game in tournaments.

Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Exactly why the game isn't doing as good as it was 10 years ago.

Nope.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 21, 2014, 08:29:16 AM
Ultra rares were almost 10 years ago.

Now they are full-body art with neat little ripples in the cards....  ;)
After a first glance, I almost reported this to the moderators. Then I re-read each word more carefully.  ;)
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Master KChief on March 21, 2014, 02:10:42 PM
It's not "set rotation" because Redemption doesn't have "sets". Otherwise, I think it is.

I'm pretty sure what everyone means by 'sets' is 'expansions'. What you may be referring to is 'blocks', as in, a multitude of successive expansions (that usually share the same theme), which Redemption doesn't really have. But Drrek is saying how the proposal fails to demonstrate any kind of rotation...set, block, or otherwise. Are there plans to consistently remove expansions or whole blocks from the format to allow new expansions to enter the format? If so, that is rotation. But it seems to me to just be a banning of all cards pre-IJ and reboot from IJ forward.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: _JM_ on March 21, 2014, 02:32:00 PM
It's not "set rotation" because Redemption doesn't have "sets". Otherwise, I think it is.

I'm pretty sure what everyone means by 'sets' is 'expansions'. What you may be referring to is 'blocks', as in, a multitude of successive expansions (that usually share the same theme), which Redemption doesn't really have. But Drrek is saying how the proposal fails to demonstrate any kind of rotation...set, block, or otherwise. Are there plans to consistently remove expansions or whole blocks from the format to allow new expansions to enter the format? If so, that is rotation. But it seems to me to just be a banning of all cards pre-IJ and reboot from IJ forward.

I agree with MKC - can't really call your proposal 'set rotation', Alex.  MtG Standard is set rotation - your idea is more like their Modern/Legacy split.  It is a fantastic idea, though, no matter the name of it.

Looking at Closed Deck structure, I would definitely see Sealed as I/J onward.  Booster, at least through the first expansion or two, would probably have to be Unlimited.  After the release of the third expansion in the (Modern?  Structured?  Need a word other than reboot...) era, booster could shift to just those expansions.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Sadness on March 21, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
If you get the banning of all cards prior to the I/J deck,what do you want done with those cards? Redemption tournaments with old cards for fun,recycling,drink holders?

Personally if we do a reboot I suggest we vote here-on the boards-for that.

Here are a few questions/thoughts for yall.

1) A post for Rob to read as to what cards you'd like to see  in the next few sets.
2) What to do with the old cards?
3) What current sets to carry over with the reboot till more cards come out?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: DJWeb on March 21, 2014, 09:12:31 PM
I think something like a reboot might be good for the game, but being a recent returnee to the game, I would like to see something like this happen real slowly. I feel like I am just now getting caught up after my several year hiatus from the game, so I would be disappointed if I could not use all the cards and decks I have recently gotten.

This would be my ideal "reboot". All of the pre-I/J cards would stop being printed. But these cards and T1/T2 as we know it would be the main categories for several years. A few large new sets would be printed over these new few years (lots of reprints would be fine), and they could only be used, along with I and J, in the new categories of the future. Theoretically, these would transition into the norm and eventually, the old cards and categories would become obsolete (could still be played, but would not be the main ones). This way, older players won't be forced with the change, and new players will "grow up" with the new Redemption. I think that makes sense.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 21, 2014, 09:27:00 PM
If you get the banning of all cards prior to the I/J deck,what do you want done with those cards? Redemption tournaments with old cards for fun,recycling,drink holders?

Personally if we do a reboot I suggest we vote here-on the boards-for that.

Here are a few questions/thoughts for yall.

1) A post for Rob to read as to what cards you'd like to see  in the next few sets.
2) What to do with the old cards?
3) What current sets to carry over with the reboot till more cards come out?

It's already been stated that if a reboot were to happen, there would be an unlimited format where all cards can be used. I do agree with the forum poll though.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Isildur on March 22, 2014, 01:46:03 AM
If I am not mistaken what Alex is proposing is not set rotation but is creating two separate game formats... yes? This has proven to work by a number of older games to work... VS, Magic and Decipher games to name a few... annnd if I'm not mistaken this means you are in support of a reboot of sorts yes?

Just trying to decipher the wall of text :P
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Sadness on March 22, 2014, 07:15:14 AM
Aj, when it was stated that unlimited would be used-I thought they meant unlimited set only. Aka the original set or the cheap blue packs.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheJaylor on March 22, 2014, 11:47:43 AM
If I am not mistaken what Alex is proposing is not set rotation but is creating two separate game formats... yes? This has proven to work by a number of older games to work... VS, Magic and Decipher games to name a few... annnd if I'm not mistaken this means you are in support of a reboot of sorts yes?

Just trying to decipher the wall of text :P
I believe that is all correct from what I understood.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: Sadness on March 23, 2014, 07:04:59 AM
Does anybody know any of the cards that are being considered for the new set? I'd like to see a Matthis in purple since he replaced Judas as the 12th apostle. I wouldn't mind seeing a Josephus  promo card or a McBees promo card. I realize that they're technically  not in the Bible,however they are part of it. Also will there be a Saul and Paul reprint?

I'll come back later and correct my spelling.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: jbeers285 on March 23, 2014, 07:53:10 AM
Does anybody know any of the cards that are being considered for the new set? I'd like to see a Matthis in purple since he replaced Judas as the 12th apostle. I wouldn't mind seeing a Josephus  promo card or a McBees promo card. I realize that they're technically  not in the Bible,however they are part of it. Also will there be a Saul and Paul reprint?

I'll come back later and correct my spelling.

No not McBees, NYTO that new fortress called Mickey-D's. It grants obesity to all children under the age of 10 and is CBN if you put Ronald McDonald in play.

Ba da ba da da, I'm lovin' it.

:) I think you where looking for Maccabees, the Jewish people who lead the rebillion which at one point took control of Judea and held it for about 100 years?
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 23, 2014, 08:53:14 AM
Does anybody know any of the cards that are being considered for the new set? I'd like to see a Matthis in purple since he replaced Judas as the 12th apostle. I wouldn't mind seeing a Josephus  promo card or a McBees promo card. I realize that they're technically  not in the Bible,however they are part of it. Also will there be a Saul and Paul reprint?

I'll come back later and correct my spelling.

1. No only the PTB knows what cards are in the set.
2. The Redemption definition of Disciple is " One of the 12 who walked with Jesus" since Matthias was after Jesus' ascension he will go in whatever color the early church is in.
3. No ST Patrick was bad enough. We don't need more non biblical people in the game.
4. I would like to think so.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: jbeers285 on March 23, 2014, 10:34:04 AM
1. Sadness stated apostle not disciple.
2. Some the elders release hints about cards or possible reprints so there may be some people who know a little more then they are admitting.
3. What makes St. Patrick bad?
4. I really like Saul/Paul but a reprint with a more useable Paul woul be cool. Or perhaps a couple ways to very easily convert Saul to Paul without much cost.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: TheJaylor on March 23, 2014, 08:25:49 PM
1. Some the elders release hints about cards or possible reprints so there may be some people who know a little more then they are admitting.
2. Sadness stated apostle not disciple.
3. What makes St. Patrick bad?
4. I really like Saul/Paul but a reprint with a more useable Paul woul be cool. Or perhaps a couple ways to very easily convert Saul to Paul without much cost.
FTFY :P

As far as number 2 goes, I think he was mostly trying to figure out which brigade he would be a part of, whether it be purple or "Early Church brigade".
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 31, 2014, 08:09:04 AM
Regardless of if you agree or not, I’m just going to go right into my proposal. Technically this isn’t really my proposal for the most part, but rather a group thought that developed over the summer, but I’m not at liberty to discuss who it came from. It is important to note that this idea is probably not able to be implemented until another 1-2 set releases.

1.   Create a “new” format. This format would be the rotated format. The format would begin at I/J starter decks. This is the perfect starting point because a new card look was introduced, making  it obvious which cards are legal in this new format. You could also continue to play tournaments in the “unlimited” format with all cards legal for those who would like to do so.
2.   Eliminate multiplayer. I probably enjoy type 1 MP as much as anyone in the world, but it’s broken. It’s just not how the game is designed to be played. Ditto for Teams. As for T2 MP, if the game is played properly, it should never finish in time barring weird draws, so even the better meta still makes for painful games.
Counter proposal to #1: Create a new format where all out-of-print and post-Priests expansion cards are not allowed. All of the cards from the Limited, Apostles, Prophets, Kings, Angel Wars and Priests expansions and all starter decks would remain legal. With the exception of the of the 2-Liner, I believe this would remove from the card pool all of the OP cards that have been discussed as candidates for the various ban lists. Each card from the post-Priests expansions would be re-examined for suitability and those meeting the appropriate criteria would be re-packaged and re-released.

Counter proposal to #2: If no reboot or "set rotation" or whatever takes place, eliminate T1 as a play category. Focus all development effort on attempting to shore up and improve T2 which is currently the sole constructed category which has a semblance of a reasonable meta.

Both of these are (of course) meant for discussion. Question/comments/concerns/love-its/hate-its/and-so-ons welcome.
Title: Re: New set speculation
Post by: AJ on March 31, 2014, 02:58:02 PM
Part of the reason for the reboot is to get rid of all the terribly worded cards and this would just make these cards see more use. This does nothing but keeps people useing old cards like ANB that gives the elders and judges headaches and forces them to take an aspirin. As to number 2, I would just turn T1 into T3. It's pretty much like T2 but doesn't make people spend the abundance of cash that T2 does. I just think Redemption needs a complete Reboot to get rid of all the bad days of sloppily worded cards and Pokemon professors. This gives them a chance to start pretty much from ground up with power creep. Imagine how happy the elders would be if they only had to keep in mind when making the new set is IJ? They wouldn't have to worry about some random Apostle common making one of the new cards broken. My proposal is,

1. Turn Redemption completely into an LCG.
2. Have a reboot from IJ up and replace T1 with T3 and eliminate multiplayer. This one would make people play defense. So the categories would be T1 and T2 "unlimited,and T3 and T2 reboot.

Because it would be an LCG people wouldn't have to track down a bunch of rares and ultra rares and it would eliminate the closed categories which would free up room for new interesting categories.
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