Author Topic: trying to fine tune Daniel  (Read 1797 times)

Offline Gabe

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2019, 02:15:21 PM »
+1
Next question is: namaans servant girl (LS gen) or Woman with child (dom search).  Servant girl can be hard to use, to avoid having to convert myself, but the soul gen can win games sometimes, but so can getting the right dom with WWC, plus she shuffles.  Advice?

Soul gen feels like one of the Daniel offense's weaknesses. I'm not sure what the solution is. NSG helps but only once and comes with a downside (as you mentioned). Majestic Heavens could offer a solution multiple times and can stack the deck for CBN TFA action (if you have Daniel cards in Reserve). But it's not easily grabbed from Reserve and clogs the deck by being non-Daniel. Maybe it's better than Hopper though.

Was given clearance to share this. Try testing it!

Spoiler (hover to show)

I'm so glad you shared this, JD! I've loved testing this card!

I've only been able to use it a couple times but it is easily the best GE the Daniel offense has to work with. The things I've found is that when you band the 3 Amigos > Daniel > Riverfolk > Gabe all CBN by TFA and backed up with a potential EJ negate, there is very little an opponent can do to stop you. It doesn't provide a lot of opportunities to use your amazing card. It's a solid choice before the offense is all set up to either play pre-battle and ride the protection to victory or to save as an interrupt+battle winner.

I'm also testing a meek Daniel Lost Soul (actually 6 of them). Thus far it feels like the "added consistency" is offset by the fact that now 6 of the Lost Souls have no special ability.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2019, 02:59:28 PM »
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I agree with gabe that although i would use it because its still a good daniel card, its not really what the deck needs. 

Offline goalieking87

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2019, 04:30:19 PM »
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I agree with gabe that although i would use it because its still a good daniel card, its not really what the deck needs.

Hm, I disagree.  I have been testing versions of Daniel decks since before POC, probably around the time FoM was released and there is definitely a need for Daniel battle winners. Huge plus that it interrupts.

I get that once the Daniel band is out, it’s pretty hard to shut down. But if you have to wait to win LSs until you have it out, you’ve already lost the game against competitive players. Also, what if you know your opponent is holding one of the CBN if banded cards?  Backup is nice.

Also, I can attest to the effectiveness of Love Righteousness and Fifth Seal in the deck. They have been in my Daniel decks since the start and I wouldn’t change it.


Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2019, 04:58:46 PM »
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I would prefer cards that help me get out the banding chain then one that helps me win the 1 battle i fight before i get the banding chain out.  I used to run more kill cards but took them all out because i never used them, now i just have negates and search cards.  Sure and daniel interrupt and kill would be nice, but its not what the deck needs to be truly top tier, as there are already several daniel kill cards and negates out there

Offline kariusvega

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2019, 05:06:24 PM »
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I agree with gabe that although i would use it because its still a good daniel card, its not really what the deck needs.

With Fifth Seal and Love Righteousness this is a battle winner and or a pre battle protect that also protects arts and souls..

It seems well balanced. With Majestic Heavens as Gabe pointed out I feel like the Soul Gen should be no issue.. I'd definitely still run Endless Treasures and maybe put Shrine to Artemis in the reserve for another way to shuffle and reuse Majestic Heavens

In a speed version of this deck I'd still run First Fruits..

Has anyone experimented with a highly aggro version of this?

First cards I'd cut for speed..

Darius decree
Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin
Eternal Judgement
Fiery Furnace
Lions
The Winged Lion (tin version)
Babylonian soldiers
King Belshazzar
Head of Gold
Nebby's Dream
Cut Off

I'd run scattered main deck and optimize the rest of this for offensive speed/search/drawing

Having fewer Daniel cards doesn't really matter when you're getting +3 or more off of the non Daniel cards anyway with or without TFA

Would even try The Priests of Christ in here for more Dom access.. Definitely include Lost Anointing in the reserve.

Add fire foxes and Lying prophet. Damsel, Vittles.. These are all cards that draw and can play scattered. the core blocks I have found are Scattered and Martyr. These cards get you to one or the other. If you get 2 blocks in a 5 turn game it can be the difference between winning or losing in classic Redemption.

This is my perception of an aggro Daniel deck which I see Faith Unbowed working wonders in because it gets you through Scattered and DoU

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2019, 05:14:59 PM »
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I would be curious if you could get it to move fast enought to overcome the fact you wont be able to get much mileage out of TFA.  Not saying it wont work, just not my style for this kind of deck, as its not really using what makes a daniel deck so cool, which is TFA

Offline Gabe

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2019, 05:58:37 PM »
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It's not using TFA for card advantage but it is using TFA’s power to make a 4 human + 2 angel band CBN with CBN protection for those humans. I think JD is just questioning whether TFA is your best speed option and if the sacrifices are worth it. That’s a legit question to ask. I’m not sure the answer is obvious.

*EDIT* - I didn't mean to imply that JD's card isn't needed in a Daniel offense. I believe the Daniel offense does need solid battle winners and that's an area it's currently weak. JD's creation fits that role in the best way possible! Interrupt + win condition enhancements are really strong. When I first saw it I was a little concerned. But from the testing I've been able to do with it my impression is that my concerns might be unwarranted. It will be a great addition to Daniel decks for years to come. I find it unlikely that we'd ever make a Daniel GE that surpasses it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 06:19:37 PM by Gabe »
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2019, 06:55:40 PM »
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But if you dont have enough daniel cards in deck, youll never topcard one, so wither you are using TFA for speed or power, if you dilute the deck too much it wont be too useful for either.  Im not saying JDs built wont work, its just not one i would use

Offline kariusvega

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2019, 08:32:17 PM »
+1
But if you dont have enough daniel cards in deck, youll never topcard one, so wither you are using TFA for speed or power, if you dilute the deck too much it wont be too useful for either.  Im not saying JDs built wont work, its just not one i would use

In the most successful Daniel decks I've personally seen played, TFA was more of a bonus feature than the main attraction. Similar to Throne, if you entirely depend on purple kings drawing off of Throne itself you're giving up a lot of speed from Auto/Samuel/Abigail etc.

Having an entirely Daniel deck for TFA exclusively is similar here because TFA should serve as more of a bonus speed rather than being the engine itself when you have so many great speed options besides TFA which fit perfectly into nearly any deck.

This is why I would absolutely include Endless Treasures, because it is already such a value card on its own in any deck. If half of your deck is Daniel cards that's more than enough for TFA to get you +5 or better in a game without being worried about losing it early on to a Remnant, Flying Scroll, etc. Which are auto includes in nearly every top tier meta deck.

.. Come to think of it I'm really having a hard time justifying the TFA engine at all because the whole point of speed is to get to doms.. Doms are exclusively a stop for TFA so extra TFA drawing is pretty much mandatory in this deck.. This deck will never be CoL for that reason.. CoL was able to get straight to Doms, power, and soul gen.. This deck does little of each of those things and doms are a stop for TFA every time..

Relatively speaking the Daniel band is strong, but I'm still finding it to be B level in the meta at best. Not sure it will make it to top cut even with some substantial boosting from the next set. I do love the Unbowed concept though and I am really happy with my card!  ;D

How is this deck you have listed here honestly running? It doesn't seem to be competitive.. Just saying this because against other decks I really haven't found the Daniel deck to be top tier. The best Daniel decks are sort of "The Deck" style where a small Daniel band is just another nice option but those didn't really even include TFA. They relied on other speed options to get to doms for winning the game overall.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:15:33 PM by kariusvega »

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2019, 09:04:49 AM »
+1
So far its worked really well, ive tested it against #mayham, flood and musicians/brown and the only thing thats really stopped it is music leaders and false leaders profiting off my searching.  This deck will easily deck out before those other decks ob a consistant basis.  Getting doms has been more of a struggle though, sometimes losing games to because of not getting SoG soon enough, which is why im trying to fin WWC in there without blowing my raito of non daniel cards.  The decks already close to only half daniel, so im afraid cutting too many daniel cards will blow it up, so IMO its either completey change everything and just have a daniel band with a speed deck behind it or keep it as is.  I dont know which will be better, but i built this because i think TFA is one of the coolest cards in the game and i wanted to use it, so ill use this.  Also i hate splashy speed decks, just not my style


Offline Gabe

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2019, 10:23:54 AM »
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Have you used Nebby + FF to help get out your SoG?
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2019, 10:48:28 AM »
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Yes, but its not always reliable to get them both out when i need it, or just get FF out at all as i have no searching for it, but it does help

Offline Gabe

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Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2019, 07:54:21 AM »
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Sepjazz won our Local Tournament last night with his blazing fast Daniel deck! And on his birthday too! Congrats, Zac!
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