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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on August 26, 2019, 10:04:56 AM

Title: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 26, 2019, 10:04:56 AM
Copied from another post, trying to resurrect to get some advice on it.  Cov with death and coliseum work really well with this, but stop bel's banquet and bab seige army/bab merchants, so wondering if those cards are worth it, even though they are super good.  Looking for more ways to get TFA out faster (only other thing I can think of is I Am Creator, but don't like it only works 1st turn basically and isn't Daniel).  Any other good Daniel cards that are worth a slot?  Any advice is welcome

* also don't actually have awake LS yet, if you have one to trade, check out my trade threadhttp://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-market/sepjazzwarrior-trading-post-have-poc2-3w-and-fa/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-market/sepjazzwarrior-trading-post-have-poc2-3w-and-fa/) *

Cards with a * next to it are non-Daniel, everything else is.  25 0ut of 50 cards in deck are non-Daniel, 13 of them are doms and LS's, 12 are not

Doms:
SoG*
TSC*
Angel*
3W*
CM*
FA (womens)*
Mayhem*

LS:
Cov Breakers
Exiles*
Wanderer*
Covet*
Hunter*
Prosperity *
Remnant*

neutral/forts:
Darius decree
Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin
Eternal Judgement
Fiery Furnace
Storehouse*
Endless treasure*
Majestic heavens*
5th seal/justice seekers*
Ends*

Heroes:
Daniel (LR)
Shadrach
Meshach
Abednego
The Foretelling Angel
Michael
Gabriel
Daniel's Guardian
Servant's by the River

GE:
the coming prince
WWW*
Angelic guidance *
Faith *
Love righteousness*
Consider the lillies*

EC:
King Belshazzar
Nebuchadnezzar
Lions
The Winged Lion (tin version)
Babylonian soldiers
Conjurers
Astrologers
deceiver*

EE:
Head of Gold
Nebby's Dream
Bel's banquet
wages of sin*

reserve:
Undefiled
Stone cut without hands
I Am Creator*
Flying scroll*
Cov with death *
Seized by Babylon *
Scattered*
bab seige army *
Bab merchants*
Women with child*
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: The Guardian on August 26, 2019, 11:15:18 AM
I would highly recommend the Hunter/Exiles/I am Creator package for getting TFA out quickly. You could even include Awake LS since you won't be using a ton of draw abilities (turn 1 Awake can tutor Hunter to get to Exiles, or generate a LS to rescue if you draw it later and you're already set up).
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 26, 2019, 11:53:29 AM
That sounds great and would be a good LS package...if I had them.  don't have awake or exiles, but totally agree that would be the way to go if I had them

on a side note, does awake work with imitate LS?
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on August 26, 2019, 05:18:49 PM
You could even include Awake LS since you won't be using a ton of draw abilities (turn 1 Awake can tutor Hunter to get to Exiles, or generate a LS to rescue if you draw it later and you're already set up).

That...or Awake can just go straight to Exiles. 8)

on a side note, does awake work with imitate LS?

Yes
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on August 26, 2019, 06:06:34 PM
You could even include Awake LS since you won't be using a ton of draw abilities (turn 1 Awake can tutor Hunter to get to Exiles, or generate a LS to rescue if you draw it later and you're already set up).

That...or Awake can just go straight to Exiles. 8)

 :rollin:

Justin must be play testing a new Lost Soul that let's you draw 1 every time a Lost Soul is put in play.  ::) ;)
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on August 26, 2019, 06:08:14 PM
No, he’s just trying to get people to trigger his Babylonian Merchants as many times as possible before they remember it’s sitting in his territory.  :o
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on August 27, 2019, 07:32:24 AM
My problem with the Daniel deck is that it depends on The Foretelling Angel so heavily for its “speed”.. otherwise we’re incorporating defensive or neutral non Daniel methods of accessing offense it seems like.. which brings us back to the whole reason we’re playing all Daniel which is solely to high roll with TFA which is arguably a problem card if so much is hinging on it

What is some way there could be less dependence on the foretelling angel? There are so many ways to take it especially if you put your best foot forward (typically)

Anyone else feel this way when playing a Daniel deck? Seems like it can high roll but is way less consistent than some other more well rounded offenses like clay and flood survivors throne judges etc

On the other hand the Daniel bands and offense can be very strong and difficult to block without the cbn against band enh.. so maybe it is balanced in that sense to its power? Good discussion.

Relatively speaking assuming there is no rotation it could have more consistency in my opinion
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on August 27, 2019, 10:27:00 AM
Once set up, the Daniel contingent is very hard to fully shut down.

I agree that the biggest challenge of the deck is getting set up quickly.  Even if you get out TFA, the odds still seem too great that the top card of deck is non-Daniel, which makes it less consistent than Music Leader, Noah, etc who get exactly what they want when triggered.  If that problem can be solved, then the Daniel theme would be amazing.

A secondary challenge is that if opponent is able to get rid of TFA, it is much harder to get angels back than humans. Obviously, WWW can get him back if you have it in your hand, but I don’t see any other ways in this construct. However, it is notable that TFA doesn’t need to get through your entire deck. Once you get enough Daniel Heroes, the rest should take care of itself.

At a first glance, Meshach banded to Daniel banded to Servants by the River is enough to stop many blocks. Shadrach makes it better if you have him to put up front for the cbi banding.

So...if SOMEONE was to work on a card creation for winning an event at Nats, I would say look at the possibility of making a Daniel artifact (or Covenant would be better) that provides a little back up to top card not being Daniel (maybe similar to The Sea of Glass option) that either provides some Daniel character territory protection or gets a Daniel card from discard (probably with a reasonable cost).  Such a card might be able to incorporate two of these things, but probably not all three.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: MMHobbitWW on August 27, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
I'd be tempted to splash in Love at First Sight and Words of Encouragement. Sometimes they would slow down the machine but it's not bad to have speed options after you are set up or draw into TFA.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Red Wing on August 27, 2019, 11:35:01 AM
Endless Treasures would also help with consistency and pulling out CwD.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: The Guardian on August 27, 2019, 01:45:26 PM
The topdeck part of Manna is optional... ::)

Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on August 27, 2019, 02:19:01 PM
The topdeck part of Manna is optional... ::)

Spoiler (hover to show)


Cool, could be a good Reserve option to grab instead of I am Creator with Exiles if you already have Heroes in territory.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Sean on August 27, 2019, 02:54:50 PM
I think Elijah (PoC) and Moses (CoW) are better options than Gabriel and Michael (unless I'm missing something) because you never use Gabe or Mike once you have the Daniel humans out.  None of the Daniel humans are hurt by Moses.  Both Elijah and Moses can play WWW and Elijah can use your star Enhancements too.  Transfiguration is an easy add for Faith or Faith of Moses' Parents.  I'm not sure how Transfiguration works with Coliseum though so maybe that's bad.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: The Guardian on August 27, 2019, 04:18:15 PM
I think Elijah (PoC) and Moses (CoW) are better options than Gabriel and Michael (unless I'm missing something) because you never use Gabe or Mike once you have the Daniel humans out.  None of the Daniel humans are hurt by Moses.  Both Elijah and Moses can play WWW and Elijah can use your star Enhancements too.  Transfiguration is an easy add for Faith or Faith of Moses' Parents.  I'm not sure how Transfiguration works with Coliseum though so maybe that's bad.

Moses (CoW) would prevent WWW.

Moses and Elijah are also not Daniel cards so they would inherently slow the deck down. I've seen an early Gabriel basically win games just by hitting a couple of key EE (i.e. Scattered) from the opponents deck not to mention the fact that you can use him to discard stuff from your own deck in order to shuffle it when your top card isn't a Daniel card. I do think it might be worth using at least one powerful GE that Michael can use (perhaps Death of Firstborn, Striking Herod or Protection of Angels).
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 28, 2019, 10:30:33 AM
Are there any non daniel cards that could be taken out? Is colisuem worth the slot?
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: The Guardian on August 28, 2019, 10:39:07 AM
I think Coliseum could be cut. Darius' Decree is not the staple it used to be, but it is a Daniel card and it does disrupt the opponent in a CwD-like fashion. Since GWT is only needed to get out TFA and Charms is activated on a magician, your Art slot can then be dedicated to CwD & Decree.

Cutting Coliseum would also allow you to throw Uzzah in Reserve which can get value from GWT after you've gotten TFA out.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 28, 2019, 09:24:13 PM
Coincidentally i took out DD for coliseum...what would i take out for uzzah? Bab merchants? What would i cut if i could put in I Am Creator? Im having a hard time cutting cards from there
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on August 29, 2019, 08:52:56 AM
I have found Stone Cut without Hands to be an underwhelming Daniel card. Especially since the Daniel band is the got-to, but even in general, you don’t want the opponent to be able to play an evil enhancement that is going to work. Maybe if Stone interrupted the battle it would be worthwhile, but I don’t think it is.

I am also curious how DOU has been working for you? You have a few ECs who can play it, and one of which who can get it from Reserve. You can also get it with Storehouse, but not sure at what point it is the card you would be going to, especially since you have to show it to opponent and then they know what you want to do during your block. Lastly, and more importantly, Lost Souls are a big reason that TFA gets stalled, so I am not sure I would be very motivated to shuffle them back into my deck.

Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 29, 2019, 09:39:05 AM
Stone cut without hand (and unbowed) are there for Abed-nego to top deck, they never get played, just like cast into lions den.  I could probably just have one of those in reserve and cut the others, giving me a spot in deck and reserve.

DoU gets used sometimes, mostly it just gets angel played on conjurors, I could see taking it out as well, but the defense lacks so much power and DoU can get me a turn or 2 of stall sometimes, its hard to cut.   
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: TheJaylor on August 29, 2019, 10:23:12 AM
I included Moses' Parents in a Daniel deck I built while ago. I didn't test it much at all, but it did seem like a worthwhile non-Daniel card since all the humans are Cloud and you can pull them out with Faith.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 29, 2019, 10:29:56 AM
I was thinking about putting him in reserve, but one of the Daniel guys already prevents the first non-Daniel enhancement they play, so I thought that was similar enough to moses parents ability to not warrant them
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on August 31, 2019, 08:07:00 AM
Updates, decided to go all in on coliseum as it stop all the CBN shuffle all heroes in battle cards like scattered and reap the whirlwind that absolutely kill this offense, so far it has worked in testing but still not set on it

Would it be worth it to add covet and wanderer to try and get opponents exile LS? Taking out imitate and lawless.  I lose LS get but gain a few more ways to get I Am Creator early
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on August 31, 2019, 11:24:52 AM
Updates, decided to go all in on coliseum as it stop all the CBN shuffle all heroes in battle cards like scattered and reap the whirlwind that absolutely kill this offense, so far it has worked in testing but still not set on it

Would it be worth it to add covet and wanderer to try and get opponents exile LS? Taking out imitate and lawless.  I lose LS get but gain a few more ways to get I Am Creator early

Coliseum and moses parents in here are very wise! Jayden makes a great point about them and faith! Very good!
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Asahel24601 on August 31, 2019, 11:51:51 AM
Updates, decided to go all in on coliseum as it stop all the CBN shuffle all heroes in battle cards like scattered and reap the whirlwind that absolutely kill this offense, so far it has worked in testing but still not set on it

Would it be worth it to add covet and wanderer to try and get opponents exile LS? Taking out imitate and lawless.  I lose LS get but gain a few more ways to get I Am Creator early
Covet is generally a powerful card, and can also grab powerful souls later in the game (Like a Remnant or Dull). I'd recommend it, but I'm less sure of Wanderer. It gets you the card for that turn, but it can just come back if you can't rescue it.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on September 05, 2019, 11:42:36 AM
just realized Daniel negates coliseum, so will just have to deal with scattered.  took it out for stone cut without hands as a placeholder for now.  What good options are there for soul gen with this?  What should I cut out for uzzah in reserve? 
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: The Guardian on September 05, 2019, 11:57:49 AM
Don't forget that Gabriel can take out Scattered. Obviously you have to draw Gabriel before they find Scattered, but when it's one specific card for them and one specific card for you, you will usually win that race assuming TFA comes down early.

There's also the possibility that you find TFA naturally and you can use Guidance or Wheel to tutor Gabriel right away.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: MMHobbitWW on September 05, 2019, 08:03:02 PM
just realized Daniel negates coliseum, so will just have to deal with scattered.  took it out for stone cut without hands as a placeholder for now.  What good options are there for soul gen with this?  What should I cut out for uzzah in reserve?

Your offense is Foretelling Angel, not Daniel.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on September 05, 2019, 09:13:00 PM
One primary purpose of TFA is to get Daniel.

:)
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on September 09, 2019, 08:03:55 AM
Do people really use flying scroll? Its in reserve just to het TFA back after ppl use their flying scroll, but is it that common? I see it in a lot of reserves but not as often used
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Red on September 09, 2019, 08:49:28 AM
Do people really use flying scroll? Its in reserve just to het TFA back after ppl use their flying scroll, but is it that common? I see it in a lot of reserves but not as often used
Flying Scroll straight up wins games vs Flood Survivors and some prophets lists.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on September 09, 2019, 09:09:19 AM
Do people really use flying scroll? Its in reserve just to het TFA back after ppl use their flying scroll, but is it that common? I see it in a lot of reserves but not as often used

It's in Reserve because it's so easily gotten from there. Several commonly played cards like Endless Treasures, Storehouse and Exiles LS can all grab it, just to name a few.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Bobbert on September 09, 2019, 09:19:54 AM
Do people really use flying scroll? Its in reserve just to het TFA back after ppl use their flying scroll, but is it that common? I see it in a lot of reserves but not as often used
Flying Scroll straight up wins games vs Flood Survivors and some prophets lists.

Can confirm; in both T1 and T2 at Nats a Flying Scroll before I was ready to counter it was one of the more concerning things for my decks. Stealing Jonah, Noah, DaveShep, Sam, Jeremiah, Moses... lots of high-level decks run at least one really good target for the artifact side - not to mention that the enhancement is pretty solid as well, if you're playing those brigades.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on September 09, 2019, 10:43:43 AM
I’d cut charms for endless treasures
Maybe Mene for death of first born
Cut a reserve ec for moses parents
Bab siege army and merchants main deck for sure, cut some other ecs
Then have wasting disease/golden calf in the reserve

The guy who won type a this year had woman with child in his Daniel build. Freaking awesome include  8)
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on September 09, 2019, 07:39:08 PM
deck gets eaten by judges ctb/Earley cwd lol

Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on September 09, 2019, 08:24:27 PM
deck gets eaten by judges ctb/Earley cwd lol



A lot of decks get eaten by CWD
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: thecoolguy on September 09, 2019, 09:14:17 PM
I mean Red Dragon Thorn isn't wrong
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on September 10, 2019, 06:57:46 AM
The problem ive been running into is that I speed through most of the daniel cards in the deck before i get cwd up, or bab merchans/seige army and moses parents are doing some real work and i dont want them negated, so i dont use cwd.  I really just need to make sure its the first thing i get with storehouses or exiles (unless i need to get I Am Creator, which is usually the case)
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on October 05, 2019, 03:31:11 PM
Is it worth running 5th Seal/Justice Seekers in the deck? It can grab Angelic Guidance to add consistency to getting Foretelling Angel early. In the late game it can either shuffle the deck to change the top card or grab a battle winner (Faith of Daniel?) from Reserve.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on October 05, 2019, 08:04:42 PM
in making Faith Unbowed, for people who are playing the Daniel deck, what ability do you think would give it the highest value? And do you feel it would be better as a Cloud card or Daniel card?

I really like the idea of the placed enhancement extender similar to Faith of David since Elohim got shot down. But CWD still stops that..

With what kind of ability could Faith Unbowed best serve this deck?
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 05, 2019, 08:15:58 PM
It should be daniel, but both would be best.  It could always use more ways to get out TFA or get it back out of discard, also allowing you to shuffle your deck or draw 1 would be nice.  Battle soul drought is also a probelm, since all of the soul drought counters are non daniel.  Battle extension like faith of david wouldnt help much as your entire offense is in battle at once so you dont have much to add to battle if you lose them, i dont even bother with you will remain. Maybe something along the lines of protection or instead ability to get around scattered and cards like it?
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: RedemptionAggie on October 05, 2019, 09:25:12 PM
I'm pretty sure it can't be both Daniel and Cloud - Cloud Enhancements need to come from Hebrews 11 (I think), and cards can only be dual testament if the NT verse quotes the OT verse, which doesn't happen with anything in Daniel 3 - there's a summary, but no direct quote.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on October 05, 2019, 10:18:56 PM
Based on the verses, your comments, and something I think would benefit a Daniel deck, here are some options:

1.
“If used by a Daniel human, ignore an evil brigade or interrupt the battle and protect Daniel Heroes from evil cards.”

2. (Territory Class)
“Place in territory: Your Daniel human Heroes ignore Babylonians. At any time, you may discard Fiery Furnace to add Shadrach, Meshach, or Abednego to battle.”
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 06, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
If i were making a card for daniel, the ability i would like most would be:

Territory class Enhancement 4/4 white
Would be daniel and cloud...somehow
-Place it territroy.  You may shuffle this to take a daniel angel from deck or discard. If any of your daniel heroes are harmed by an opponent, you may discard this instead.

Gives you shuffle, TFA assistance, and a way to get around scattered and cards like it andthem trying to flying scroll/remenant your TFA.  Your own CWD stops it sure, but thats ok as you dont always have it up with this deck and will turn it down for darius decree when you dont have a daniel card topdecked.  It being daniel is more important than cloud to me, as this deck needs more daniel cards, and one that can shuffle itself back into deck would be amazing.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Sean on October 07, 2019, 02:34:38 AM
What if you made Faith Unbowed a Covenant? Its not a perfect fit as a covenant but it most certainly is the upholding of the covenant between God and Israel to only worship Him.  As a covenant, CwD doesn't target it and you could potentially make it a hard counter to active curses (including CwD).  For Example, the special ability could say: 'target' active curses and restart the current phase.  The idea here is that you can use any target type (discard, banish, shuffle, etc...) and by restarting the phase any ongoing special abilities of CBN/P/I curses would go away. 

Doing it as a covenant also leaves open the spot for the enhancement side to be TC.  I'm just not sure there is enough support for it to actually be a covenant.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 09:42:42 AM
Is it worth running 5th Seal/Justice Seekers in the deck? It can grab Angelic Guidance to add consistency to getting Foretelling Angel early. In the late game it can either shuffle the deck to change the top card or grab a battle winner (Faith of Daniel?) from Reserve.

I could really see doing this, also then adding love righteousness, as it could get justice seekers to get angelic guidance to get tfa, as well as getting the daniel humans.  The only way to fit them i would see would be to cut endless treasures and move bab merchants to reserve, not sure if its worth that though.  Any thoughts on what could be cut for these cards?  The deck already has too many non daniel cards for my liking, so any cuts would need to be non daniel cards
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on October 07, 2019, 09:58:50 AM
Any thoughts on what could be cut for these cards?  The deck already has too many non daniel cards for my liking, so any cuts would need to be non daniel cards

TGWT is not a consistent 1st turn Hero search. In fact, there is very little you have that you can get into the discard pile if you play first. If the goal is to get TFA ASAP while keeping as many Daniel cards as possible TGWT doesn't seem like a good fit so it's the first card I'd cut.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 11:44:05 AM
Made a few changes, endless treasure and GWT out for 5th seal and love righteousness, and carcasses out for faith of moses parents in reserve.  Moving the deck farther away from CwD, but it only gets to work half the time anyway so it think its worth it for the added speed, recurrsion, negate, and tfa searching. 

Next question is: namaans servant girl (LS gen) or Woman with child (dom search).  Servant girl can be hard to use, to avoid having to convert myself, but the soul gen can win games sometimes, but so can getting the right dom with WWC, plus she shuffles.  Advice?
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on October 07, 2019, 11:50:23 AM
Thanks for the advice here I really like the ideas for Faith Unbowed!

I was really impressed by Woman with Child being in the Type-A winner deck this year. Great include! Looking forward to seeing that list
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on October 07, 2019, 01:06:43 PM
Was given clearance to share this. Try testing it!

Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 01:42:08 PM
Its good as it but i would simplfy it:

Interrupt an evil or neutral card and protect your daniel heroes from evil cards and idols this turn. 
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on October 07, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Next question is: namaans servant girl (LS gen) or Woman with child (dom search).  Servant girl can be hard to use, to avoid having to convert myself, but the soul gen can win games sometimes, but so can getting the right dom with WWC, plus she shuffles.  Advice?

Soul gen feels like one of the Daniel offense's weaknesses. I'm not sure what the solution is. NSG helps but only once and comes with a downside (as you mentioned). Majestic Heavens could offer a solution multiple times and can stack the deck for CBN TFA action (if you have Daniel cards in Reserve). But it's not easily grabbed from Reserve and clogs the deck by being non-Daniel. Maybe it's better than Hopper though.

Was given clearance to share this. Try testing it!

Spoiler (hover to show)

I'm so glad you shared this, JD! I've loved testing this card!

I've only been able to use it a couple times but it is easily the best GE the Daniel offense has to work with. The things I've found is that when you band the 3 Amigos > Daniel > Riverfolk > Gabe all CBN by TFA and backed up with a potential EJ negate, there is very little an opponent can do to stop you. It doesn't provide a lot of opportunities to use your amazing card. It's a solid choice before the offense is all set up to either play pre-battle and ride the protection to victory or to save as an interrupt+battle winner.

I'm also testing a meek Daniel Lost Soul (actually 6 of them). Thus far it feels like the "added consistency" is offset by the fact that now 6 of the Lost Souls have no special ability.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 02:59:28 PM
I agree with gabe that although i would use it because its still a good daniel card, its not really what the deck needs. 
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: goalieking87 on October 07, 2019, 04:30:19 PM
I agree with gabe that although i would use it because its still a good daniel card, its not really what the deck needs.

Hm, I disagree.  I have been testing versions of Daniel decks since before POC, probably around the time FoM was released and there is definitely a need for Daniel battle winners. Huge plus that it interrupts.

I get that once the Daniel band is out, it’s pretty hard to shut down. But if you have to wait to win LSs until you have it out, you’ve already lost the game against competitive players. Also, what if you know your opponent is holding one of the CBN if banded cards?  Backup is nice.

Also, I can attest to the effectiveness of Love Righteousness and Fifth Seal in the deck. They have been in my Daniel decks since the start and I wouldn’t change it.

Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 04:58:46 PM
I would prefer cards that help me get out the banding chain then one that helps me win the 1 battle i fight before i get the banding chain out.  I used to run more kill cards but took them all out because i never used them, now i just have negates and search cards.  Sure and daniel interrupt and kill would be nice, but its not what the deck needs to be truly top tier, as there are already several daniel kill cards and negates out there
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on October 07, 2019, 05:06:24 PM
I agree with gabe that although i would use it because its still a good daniel card, its not really what the deck needs.

With Fifth Seal and Love Righteousness this is a battle winner and or a pre battle protect that also protects arts and souls..

It seems well balanced. With Majestic Heavens as Gabe pointed out I feel like the Soul Gen should be no issue.. I'd definitely still run Endless Treasures and maybe put Shrine to Artemis in the reserve for another way to shuffle and reuse Majestic Heavens

In a speed version of this deck I'd still run First Fruits..

Has anyone experimented with a highly aggro version of this?

First cards I'd cut for speed..

Darius decree
Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin
Eternal Judgement
Fiery Furnace
Lions
The Winged Lion (tin version)
Babylonian soldiers
King Belshazzar
Head of Gold
Nebby's Dream
Cut Off

I'd run scattered main deck and optimize the rest of this for offensive speed/search/drawing

Having fewer Daniel cards doesn't really matter when you're getting +3 or more off of the non Daniel cards anyway with or without TFA

Would even try The Priests of Christ in here for more Dom access.. Definitely include Lost Anointing in the reserve.

Add fire foxes and Lying prophet. Damsel, Vittles.. These are all cards that draw and can play scattered. the core blocks I have found are Scattered and Martyr. These cards get you to one or the other. If you get 2 blocks in a 5 turn game it can be the difference between winning or losing in classic Redemption.

This is my perception of an aggro Daniel deck which I see Faith Unbowed working wonders in because it gets you through Scattered and DoU
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 05:14:59 PM
I would be curious if you could get it to move fast enought to overcome the fact you wont be able to get much mileage out of TFA.  Not saying it wont work, just not my style for this kind of deck, as its not really using what makes a daniel deck so cool, which is TFA
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on October 07, 2019, 05:58:37 PM
It's not using TFA for card advantage but it is using TFA’s power to make a 4 human + 2 angel band CBN with CBN protection for those humans. I think JD is just questioning whether TFA is your best speed option and if the sacrifices are worth it. That’s a legit question to ask. I’m not sure the answer is obvious.

*EDIT* - I didn't mean to imply that JD's card isn't needed in a Daniel offense. I believe the Daniel offense does need solid battle winners and that's an area it's currently weak. JD's creation fits that role in the best way possible! Interrupt + win condition enhancements are really strong. When I first saw it I was a little concerned. But from the testing I've been able to do with it my impression is that my concerns might be unwarranted. It will be a great addition to Daniel decks for years to come. I find it unlikely that we'd ever make a Daniel GE that surpasses it.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 07, 2019, 06:55:40 PM
But if you dont have enough daniel cards in deck, youll never topcard one, so wither you are using TFA for speed or power, if you dilute the deck too much it wont be too useful for either.  Im not saying JDs built wont work, its just not one i would use
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: kariusvega on October 08, 2019, 08:32:17 PM
But if you dont have enough daniel cards in deck, youll never topcard one, so wither you are using TFA for speed or power, if you dilute the deck too much it wont be too useful for either.  Im not saying JDs built wont work, its just not one i would use

In the most successful Daniel decks I've personally seen played, TFA was more of a bonus feature than the main attraction. Similar to Throne, if you entirely depend on purple kings drawing off of Throne itself you're giving up a lot of speed from Auto/Samuel/Abigail etc.

Having an entirely Daniel deck for TFA exclusively is similar here because TFA should serve as more of a bonus speed rather than being the engine itself when you have so many great speed options besides TFA which fit perfectly into nearly any deck.

This is why I would absolutely include Endless Treasures, because it is already such a value card on its own in any deck. If half of your deck is Daniel cards that's more than enough for TFA to get you +5 or better in a game without being worried about losing it early on to a Remnant, Flying Scroll, etc. Which are auto includes in nearly every top tier meta deck.

.. Come to think of it I'm really having a hard time justifying the TFA engine at all because the whole point of speed is to get to doms.. Doms are exclusively a stop for TFA so extra TFA drawing is pretty much mandatory in this deck.. This deck will never be CoL for that reason.. CoL was able to get straight to Doms, power, and soul gen.. This deck does little of each of those things and doms are a stop for TFA every time..

Relatively speaking the Daniel band is strong, but I'm still finding it to be B level in the meta at best. Not sure it will make it to top cut even with some substantial boosting from the next set. I do love the Unbowed concept though and I am really happy with my card!  ;D

How is this deck you have listed here honestly running? It doesn't seem to be competitive.. Just saying this because against other decks I really haven't found the Daniel deck to be top tier. The best Daniel decks are sort of "The Deck" style where a small Daniel band is just another nice option but those didn't really even include TFA. They relied on other speed options to get to doms for winning the game overall.
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 09, 2019, 09:04:49 AM
So far its worked really well, ive tested it against #mayham, flood and musicians/brown and the only thing thats really stopped it is music leaders and false leaders profiting off my searching.  This deck will easily deck out before those other decks ob a consistant basis.  Getting doms has been more of a struggle though, sometimes losing games to because of not getting SoG soon enough, which is why im trying to fin WWC in there without blowing my raito of non daniel cards.  The decks already close to only half daniel, so im afraid cutting too many daniel cards will blow it up, so IMO its either completey change everything and just have a daniel band with a speed deck behind it or keep it as is.  I dont know which will be better, but i built this because i think TFA is one of the coolest cards in the game and i wanted to use it, so ill use this.  Also i hate splashy speed decks, just not my style

Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on October 09, 2019, 10:23:54 AM
Have you used Nebby + FF to help get out your SoG?
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on October 09, 2019, 10:48:28 AM
Yes, but its not always reliable to get them both out when i need it, or just get FF out at all as i have no searching for it, but it does help
Title: Re: trying to fine tune Daniel
Post by: Gabe on November 09, 2019, 07:54:21 AM
Sepjazz won our Local Tournament last night with his blazing fast Daniel deck! And on his birthday too! Congrats, Zac!