Author Topic: How to win in one turn – Without making a single successful rescue attempt!*  (Read 7959 times)

Offline Kor

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The latest in 1TK Redemption Combos – How to win in one turn – Without making a single successful rescue attempt!*

So is it possible to win in one turn in redemption?  To go from 0-7 in ONE turn (T2)?  Without making a single successful rescue attempt???

Yes, it is!  And the core of the combo is actually pretty simple.  Son of God and The Second Coming give you 2.  And for the other 5?  You just take Disciples of the Lamb and combine it with 4 of an old forgotten card from Kings – Book of Jashar. 

The only really hard part is fulfilling the requirements of Disciples of the Lamb and collecting all of the pieces.  The pieces you need are:

12 disciples
1 Disciples of the Lamb
4 Book of Jashar
1 Son of God
1 The Second Coming
1 Provisions (to choose usable blocker)
1 Coming of the Spirit (to let Thomas use clay brigade)

That is 21 required pieces, which pretty much means you will have to draw most or all of your deck to get them all.  Oh, and you probably don’t want to be disrupted while doing so.  This is initial list I came up with to try and make this work.

Decklist:

Offense:

Heroes (13)

James Leader in Jerusalem
John, the Revelator
Philip
Matthew (Levi)
Mattias
James, Son of Alphaeus
Peter (I)
Simon the Zealot (apostles)
James
Thaddeus
Bartholomew
Andrew
Thomas (apostles)


Good Enhancements (19)

Helmet of Salvation
Loaves and Fishes
Lay Down Your Life
Life Through Christ
Raising Lazarus
Book of Jashar x4
Disciples of the Lamb
Provisions X2
Miraculous Catch x4
Coming of the Spirit
Abraham’s Descendant x2

Good Forts/Doms (6)

Storehouse x2
Son of God
The Second Coming
Grapes of Wrath
Guardian of Your Souls

Neutral (10)

Three Woes
Seven Years of Plenty x2
Hopper
Patmos
Heavenly Censer
The Great White Throne
Four Drachma Coin x3

Evil Characters (17)

Pharaoh’s Baker x4
Pharaoh’s Cupbearer x2
Egyptian Magicians x2
Egyptian Wise Men x2
The Amalekite’s Slave x2
The Dreaming Pharaoh x2
The Deceived Pharaoh x2
Emperor Claudius

Evil Enhancements (15)

Egyptian Horses x4
Swift Horses x4
Wonders Forgotten x4
Failed Objective
No Straw!
Besieging the City

Evil Forts/Doms (6)

Pharaoh’s Throne Room
Mayhem
Christian Martyr
Burial
Falling Away
Destruction of Nehushtan

Lost Souls (14)



In testing the deck ended up drawing through very fast, probably within about the first 7-10 turns.  I found blocking for that long easy to do – I always got my dominants fast, and even just the evil enhancements worked really well.  Also, my opponent would have to make at least 5 successful attempts before I drew my deck out, so at even the 10 turn mark that wasn’t a ton of stops needed (dominants can stop 4 on their own!).

IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not attack until you have everything.  It becomes way easier for your opponent to disrupt you.

Then once everything was ready I would Provisions Thomas, place Coming of the Spirit and Helmet of Salvation on him, and choose Emperor Claudius to block (*Disclaimer: This is now a lot less reliable with the CtB changes.  Still possible if your opponent plays down a 7/8 or larger character.). Since Emperor Claudius is protected from dominants and Thomas, the opponent could not even AoTL or Grapes the evil character to break the combo.  Then all that is left is to play Son of God, The Second Coming, Disciples of the Lamb, and then copy DotL with Book of Jashar, copy the copy…until you win!  (Although admittedly most of the time you will have played SoG and TSC on a previous turn for hand space concerns, essentially going from 2>7 instead of from 0)

On a side note, it is also possible to win using a similar idea in Type 1, it just changes a little.  In T1 you still go SoG>TSC>DotL>BoJ, but after that you either need to win the battle or play something like Eternal Covenant.

If you have any questions about the combo or specific card choices feel free to ask, and I will try to answer, and there would definitely be a lot more refinement to be done if I were to try to make this into a serious deck.  However with the CtB changes making it less reliable, and I personally not terribly enjoying the combo playstyle beyond wanting to see if I could make it work, that refinement probably will not ever happen.


« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 11:47:34 AM by Kor »
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Offline TheJaylor

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This is pretty sweet. I'd be interested in trying it out and refining it. Did you have a Reserve at all when testing it?

Offline Kor

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This is pretty sweet. I'd be interested in trying it out and refining it. Did you have a Reserve at all when testing it?

Not much of one...didn't have extras of my reserve access cards when making this.  But an additional Peter was in there for sure.
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Offline Reth

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Nice idea. Always wondered how Disciples of the Lamb will ever get to work out!  :)

Dumb question: What are those CtB changes?

Offline Josh

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I'm not sure this works.  Book of Jashar copies the previous good enhancement played.  When you play the second BoJ, it copies the first BoJ...  Which then attempts to copy the first BoJ again, since that first BoJ is now "the previous good enhancement played".

I.e., once you've played 1 BoJ, Disciples of the Lamb will never qualify as "the previous good enhancement played" again.
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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I'm not sure this works.  Book of Jashar copies the previous good enhancement played.  When you play the second BoJ, it copies the first BoJ...  Which then attempts to copy the first BoJ again, since that first BoJ is now "the previous good enhancement played".

I.e., once you've played 1 BoJ, Disciples of the Lamb will never qualify as "the previous good enhancement played" again.
  I guess the word copy has to be defined.  If copy means until discarded or as soon as it copies and the ability is used it goes away.

Nice idea. Always wondered how Disciples of the Lamb will ever get to work out!  :)

Dumb question: What are those CtB changes?
  You can no longer choose your own evil character with a choose the blocker ability, it has to be your opponent's.

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Also as far as this combo, I don't know how effective orange is in T2, but you can always add Doubt to the combo and make them defend with it.  The only difference is they can AotL or Grapes to break the chain or play a multicolor enhancement when initiate is passed.
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Offline Kor

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As it turns out, copy IS defined...

Quote
Copy

Last Updated: 1/3/2018 (v5.0.0)

Released: 7/26/2011

How to Play

● A copy effect causes one card to copy the special ability and/or attributes of another card.

● A copy effect that copies a special ability adds the special ability of the target to the copying card.

● A copy effect that copies a card copies all attributes and the special ability of the target, unless it specifies attributes or abilities to copy, in which case it only copies those attributes and abilities. The attributes of the target replace the attributes of the copying card.

● The copied special ability activates as the last part of completing the copy effect.

● Unless otherwise specified, copy effects last until the card with the copy effect leaves the Field of Battle.

● A copy effect targets the card or special ability that is copied.

● Unless otherwise specified, targets must be in play.

● All copy effects are ongoing.

Now I’m no expert.  But it makes sense to me.
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Offline Gabe

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Copy is pretty well defined.  ;)

Since BoJ #1 essentially becomes DotL for game play purposes BoJ #2 is copying DotL #2 (aka BoJ #1) etc. Seems to me like this works.

Well done!
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Offline thecoolguy

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I have to say it is a very interesting combo  ;) ;)
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Offline The Guardian

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One note -- Book of Jashar is actually from Kings, not Apostles.

If memory serves, I was the one who came up with the idea for the dominant recursion of DotL. The goal was to have a couple cards in Revelation of John that were "closers" in the sense that they could help a long game finish before time ran out. This was also the principle behind Twelve Gates.

I distinctly remember looking for potential recursion combos to make sure DotL could not easily be played more than once. Obviously it's difficult enough to pull off once, but we didn't want it to be too simple to pull off a second time once the pieces were in place (12 Disciples). Obviously myself and the other playtesters overlooked Book of Jashar.  ::)

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Offline Kor

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One note -- Book of Jashar is actually from Kings, not Apostles.

:doh:  Fixed, thanks!
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Offline Crashfach2002

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One note -- Book of Jashar is actually from Kings, not Apostles.

If memory serves, I was the one who came up with the idea for the dominant recursion of DotL. The goal was to have a couple cards in Revelation of John that were "closers" in the sense that they could help a long game finish before time ran out. This was also the principle behind Twelve Gates.

I distinctly remember looking for potential recursion combos to make sure DotL could not easily be played more than once. Obviously it's difficult enough to pull off once, but we didn't want it to be too simple to pull off a second time once the pieces were in place (12 Disciples). Obviously myself and the other playtesters overlooked Book of Jashar.  ::)

I understand the reasoning behind not wanting the game to be able to end like this often, but with the amount of time and set-up this potentially takes (not to include any disruption), I love the fact something like this even exists!

Offline The Guardian

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I agree--it would be one thing if such a combo could be pulled off on turn 1, but the feasibility of this combo is certainly in the 7-10 turn range as Kor mentions. T2 games can easily end in 7 turns even without a combo deck.

One thing I appreciate about this combo is that once the pieces are in place, it ends fairly quickly so there's not as much of a NPE factor (i.e. sitting around for 45 minutes while the opponent plays solitaire...).
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Offline The Guardian

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Now the question is...will we see any combo decks at this year's T2 Only???  :maul:
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Offline EmJayBee83

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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.


*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.

Offline The Guardian

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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.


*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.

It has to win a tournament first...  ;)
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Offline Josh

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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.


*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.

It has to win a tournament first...  ;)

If DotL is errata'd because one player manages to win a tournament with a combo deck built around it, that will truly be a Redemption travesty.

Redemption already has a much more limited design space than its competitors, for different reasons.  I don't know why anyone would be in a rush to essentially ban a combo deck, when "combo deck" as an archetype is already dead.

I for one love that this deck exists, and that it might potentially be piloted in tournaments.  This is good for the game. 

And there are a lot of ways to disrupt this, especially when your own EC will be in battle due to the change in CtB rules.  Keeping 12 specific heroes in play is not easy, even if you are not attacking; James leader in Jerusalem is very negatable, and appears to me to be the primary protection for the Disciples in territory.  I don't see 12 Gates, etc.    And even though Thomas makes GEs CBN, if you use one of the many useful "Discard last EE/enhancement" placed EEs, you can still discard a BoJ, which will ruin the BoJ chain since the "last GE" is a BoJ in a discard pile, where the copy ability has ended due to leaving the Field of Battle.  Mayhem, VP, Grapes, AotL can all disrupt this, unless you are playing with an EC that can't be discarded with your own Dom.
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Offline The Guardian

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Calm down... there was a reason for the  ;)
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Offline EmJayBee83

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-1
And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.


*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.

It has to win a tournament first...  ;)
So we are changing the criteria going forward? Combo decks have never had to win anything to get nerfed in the past. The mere fact that they existed brought down the errata hammer.

If DotL is errata'd because one player manages to win a tournament with a combo deck built around it, that will truly be a Redemption travesty.
Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 02:40:32 PM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline The Guardian

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So we are changing the criteria going forward? Combo decks have never had to win anything to get nerfed in the past. The mere fact that they existed brought down the errata hammer.

The criteria has been, and will continue to be, nerfing combos when they bring an extreme imbalance to the meta (i.e. players either have to use the combo or tech specifically against it otherwise they have no chance) and/or create situations of extreme NPE.

In any case, do you have examples of your claim? All of the major combo decks I've known that led to rule changes/erratas had proven successful in tournaments.
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Offline Crashfach2002

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What year was the hand limit implemented?

Offline The Guardian

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Quote
Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.

Maximum hand size was put in place to make "solitaire" combo decks in general less feasible, some of which had certainly proven successful, such as the Sin in the Camp deck that Clift created and Gabe used to win Nationals. It was not put in place to nerf one specific combo.

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Offline Crashfach2002

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Quote
Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.

Maximum hand size was put in place to make "solitaire" combo decks in general less feasible, some of which had certainly proven successful, such as the Sin in the Camp deck that Clift created and Gabe used to win Nationals. It was not put in place to nerf one specific combo.

Don't forget the nasty Warrior's Spear / Highway deck!

Offline The Guardian

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Don't forget the nasty Warrior's Spear / Highway deck!


I wasn't very active during that time so I never had to face that deck, but I when I did learn about it later, I didn't really see the appeal...there were much easier ways to lock out your opponent (and still are to be honest... ::))
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Offline Sean

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Where is the max hand size noted?  I couldn't find it in the REG. 
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