Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Strategies and Combos => Topic started by: Kor on January 25, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
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The latest in 1TK Redemption Combos – How to win in one turn – Without making a single successful rescue attempt!*
So is it possible to win in one turn in redemption? To go from 0-7 in ONE turn (T2)? Without making a single successful rescue attempt???
Yes, it is! And the core of the combo is actually pretty simple. Son of God and The Second Coming give you 2. And for the other 5? You just take Disciples of the Lamb and combine it with 4 of an old forgotten card from Kings – Book of Jashar.
The only really hard part is fulfilling the requirements of Disciples of the Lamb and collecting all of the pieces. The pieces you need are:
12 disciples
1 Disciples of the Lamb
4 Book of Jashar
1 Son of God
1 The Second Coming
1 Provisions (to choose usable blocker)
1 Coming of the Spirit (to let Thomas use clay brigade)
That is 21 required pieces, which pretty much means you will have to draw most or all of your deck to get them all. Oh, and you probably don’t want to be disrupted while doing so. This is initial list I came up with to try and make this work.
Decklist:
Offense:
Heroes (13)
James Leader in Jerusalem
John, the Revelator
Philip
Matthew (Levi)
Mattias
James, Son of Alphaeus
Peter (I)
Simon the Zealot (apostles)
James
Thaddeus
Bartholomew
Andrew
Thomas (apostles)
Good Enhancements (19)
Helmet of Salvation
Loaves and Fishes
Lay Down Your Life
Life Through Christ
Raising Lazarus
Book of Jashar x4
Disciples of the Lamb
Provisions X2
Miraculous Catch x4
Coming of the Spirit
Abraham’s Descendant x2
Good Forts/Doms (6)
Storehouse x2
Son of God
The Second Coming
Grapes of Wrath
Guardian of Your Souls
Neutral (10)
Three Woes
Seven Years of Plenty x2
Hopper
Patmos
Heavenly Censer
The Great White Throne
Four Drachma Coin x3
Evil Characters (17)
Pharaoh’s Baker x4
Pharaoh’s Cupbearer x2
Egyptian Magicians x2
Egyptian Wise Men x2
The Amalekite’s Slave x2
The Dreaming Pharaoh x2
The Deceived Pharaoh x2
Emperor Claudius
Evil Enhancements (15)
Egyptian Horses x4
Swift Horses x4
Wonders Forgotten x4
Failed Objective
No Straw!
Besieging the City
Evil Forts/Doms (6)
Pharaoh’s Throne Room
Mayhem
Christian Martyr
Burial
Falling Away
Destruction of Nehushtan
Lost Souls (14)
In testing the deck ended up drawing through very fast, probably within about the first 7-10 turns. I found blocking for that long easy to do – I always got my dominants fast, and even just the evil enhancements worked really well. Also, my opponent would have to make at least 5 successful attempts before I drew my deck out, so at even the 10 turn mark that wasn’t a ton of stops needed (dominants can stop 4 on their own!).
IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not attack until you have everything. It becomes way easier for your opponent to disrupt you.
Then once everything was ready I would Provisions Thomas, place Coming of the Spirit and Helmet of Salvation on him, and choose Emperor Claudius to block (*Disclaimer: This is now a lot less reliable with the CtB changes. Still possible if your opponent plays down a 7/8 or larger character.). Since Emperor Claudius is protected from dominants and Thomas, the opponent could not even AoTL or Grapes the evil character to break the combo. Then all that is left is to play Son of God, The Second Coming, Disciples of the Lamb, and then copy DotL with Book of Jashar, copy the copy…until you win! (Although admittedly most of the time you will have played SoG and TSC on a previous turn for hand space concerns, essentially going from 2>7 instead of from 0)
On a side note, it is also possible to win using a similar idea in Type 1, it just changes a little. In T1 you still go SoG>TSC>DotL>BoJ, but after that you either need to win the battle or play something like Eternal Covenant.
If you have any questions about the combo or specific card choices feel free to ask, and I will try to answer, and there would definitely be a lot more refinement to be done if I were to try to make this into a serious deck. However with the CtB changes making it less reliable, and I personally not terribly enjoying the combo playstyle beyond wanting to see if I could make it work, that refinement probably will not ever happen.
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This is pretty sweet. I'd be interested in trying it out and refining it. Did you have a Reserve at all when testing it?
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This is pretty sweet. I'd be interested in trying it out and refining it. Did you have a Reserve at all when testing it?
Not much of one...didn't have extras of my reserve access cards when making this. But an additional Peter was in there for sure.
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Nice idea. Always wondered how Disciples of the Lamb will ever get to work out! :)
Dumb question: What are those CtB changes?
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I'm not sure this works. Book of Jashar copies the previous good enhancement played. When you play the second BoJ, it copies the first BoJ... Which then attempts to copy the first BoJ again, since that first BoJ is now "the previous good enhancement played".
I.e., once you've played 1 BoJ, Disciples of the Lamb will never qualify as "the previous good enhancement played" again.
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I'm not sure this works. Book of Jashar copies the previous good enhancement played. When you play the second BoJ, it copies the first BoJ... Which then attempts to copy the first BoJ again, since that first BoJ is now "the previous good enhancement played".
I.e., once you've played 1 BoJ, Disciples of the Lamb will never qualify as "the previous good enhancement played" again.
I guess the word copy has to be defined. If copy means until discarded or as soon as it copies and the ability is used it goes away.
Nice idea. Always wondered how Disciples of the Lamb will ever get to work out! :)
Dumb question: What are those CtB changes?
You can no longer choose your own evil character with a choose the blocker ability, it has to be your opponent's.
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Also as far as this combo, I don't know how effective orange is in T2, but you can always add Doubt to the combo and make them defend with it. The only difference is they can AotL or Grapes to break the chain or play a multicolor enhancement when initiate is passed.
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As it turns out, copy IS defined...
Copy
Last Updated: 1/3/2018 (v5.0.0)
Released: 7/26/2011
How to Play
● A copy effect causes one card to copy the special ability and/or attributes of another card.
● A copy effect that copies a special ability adds the special ability of the target to the copying card.
● A copy effect that copies a card copies all attributes and the special ability of the target, unless it specifies attributes or abilities to copy, in which case it only copies those attributes and abilities. The attributes of the target replace the attributes of the copying card.
● The copied special ability activates as the last part of completing the copy effect.
● Unless otherwise specified, copy effects last until the card with the copy effect leaves the Field of Battle.
● A copy effect targets the card or special ability that is copied.
● Unless otherwise specified, targets must be in play.
● All copy effects are ongoing.
Now I’m no expert. But it makes sense to me.
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Copy is pretty well defined. ;)
Since BoJ #1 essentially becomes DotL for game play purposes BoJ #2 is copying DotL #2 (aka BoJ #1) etc. Seems to me like this works.
Well done!
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I have to say it is a very interesting combo ;) ;)
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One note -- Book of Jashar is actually from Kings, not Apostles.
If memory serves, I was the one who came up with the idea for the dominant recursion of DotL. The goal was to have a couple cards in Revelation of John that were "closers" in the sense that they could help a long game finish before time ran out. This was also the principle behind Twelve Gates.
I distinctly remember looking for potential recursion combos to make sure DotL could not easily be played more than once. Obviously it's difficult enough to pull off once, but we didn't want it to be too simple to pull off a second time once the pieces were in place (12 Disciples). Obviously myself and the other playtesters overlooked Book of Jashar. ::)
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One note -- Book of Jashar is actually from Kings, not Apostles.
:doh: Fixed, thanks!
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One note -- Book of Jashar is actually from Kings, not Apostles.
If memory serves, I was the one who came up with the idea for the dominant recursion of DotL. The goal was to have a couple cards in Revelation of John that were "closers" in the sense that they could help a long game finish before time ran out. This was also the principle behind Twelve Gates.
I distinctly remember looking for potential recursion combos to make sure DotL could not easily be played more than once. Obviously it's difficult enough to pull off once, but we didn't want it to be too simple to pull off a second time once the pieces were in place (12 Disciples). Obviously myself and the other playtesters overlooked Book of Jashar. ::)
I understand the reasoning behind not wanting the game to be able to end like this often, but with the amount of time and set-up this potentially takes (not to include any disruption), I love the fact something like this even exists!
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I agree--it would be one thing if such a combo could be pulled off on turn 1, but the feasibility of this combo is certainly in the 7-10 turn range as Kor mentions. T2 games can easily end in 7 turns even without a combo deck.
One thing I appreciate about this combo is that once the pieces are in place, it ends fairly quickly so there's not as much of a NPE factor (i.e. sitting around for 45 minutes while the opponent plays solitaire...).
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Now the question is...will we see any combo decks at this year's T2 Only??? :maul:
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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.
*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.
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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.
*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.
It has to win a tournament first... ;)
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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.
*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.
It has to win a tournament first... ;)
If DotL is errata'd because one player manages to win a tournament with a combo deck built around it, that will truly be a Redemption travesty.
Redemption already has a much more limited design space than its competitors, for different reasons. I don't know why anyone would be in a rush to essentially ban a combo deck, when "combo deck" as an archetype is already dead.
I for one love that this deck exists, and that it might potentially be piloted in tournaments. This is good for the game.
And there are a lot of ways to disrupt this, especially when your own EC will be in battle due to the change in CtB rules. Keeping 12 specific heroes in play is not easy, even if you are not attacking; James leader in Jerusalem is very negatable, and appears to me to be the primary protection for the Disciples in territory. I don't see 12 Gates, etc. And even though Thomas makes GEs CBN, if you use one of the many useful "Discard last EE/enhancement" placed EEs, you can still discard a BoJ, which will ruin the BoJ chain since the "last GE" is a BoJ in a discard pile, where the copy ability has ended due to leaving the Field of Battle. Mayhem, VP, Grapes, AotL can all disrupt this, unless you are playing with an EC that can't be discarded with your own Dom.
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Calm down... there was a reason for the ;)
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And now following in the tradition of stomping on any combo deck, no matter how impractical,* DotL will have to be errated to nerf this.
*See maximum hand size limit and any number of decks built around ANB.
It has to win a tournament first... ;)
So we are changing the criteria going forward? Combo decks have never had to win anything to get nerfed in the past. The mere fact that they existed brought down the errata hammer.
If DotL is errata'd because one player manages to win a tournament with a combo deck built around it, that will truly be a Redemption travesty.
Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.
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So we are changing the criteria going forward? Combo decks have never had to win anything to get nerfed in the past. The mere fact that they existed brought down the errata hammer.
The criteria has been, and will continue to be, nerfing combos when they bring an extreme imbalance to the meta (i.e. players either have to use the combo or tech specifically against it otherwise they have no chance) and/or create situations of extreme NPE.
In any case, do you have examples of your claim? All of the major combo decks I've known that led to rule changes/erratas had proven successful in tournaments.
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What year was the hand limit implemented?
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Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.
Maximum hand size was put in place to make "solitaire" combo decks in general less feasible, some of which had certainly proven successful, such as the Sin in the Camp deck that Clift created and Gabe used to win Nationals. It was not put in place to nerf one specific combo.
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Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.
Maximum hand size was put in place to make "solitaire" combo decks in general less feasible, some of which had certainly proven successful, such as the Sin in the Camp deck that Clift created and Gabe used to win Nationals. It was not put in place to nerf one specific combo.
Don't forget the nasty Warrior's Spear / Highway deck!
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Don't forget the nasty Warrior's Spear / Highway deck!
I wasn't very active during that time so I never had to face that deck, but I when I did learn about it later, I didn't really see the appeal...there were much easier ways to lock out your opponent (and still are to be honest... ::))
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Where is the max hand size noted? I couldn't find it in the REG.
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What year was the hand limit implemented?
I don't recall offhand, I'd have to go back and do some research of old posts.
Where is the max hand size noted? I couldn't find it in the REG.
In the REG glossary under "Hand"
Hand
A player’s hand is where a player holds all the cards that are not in their deck, Reserve,
discard pile or banish pile but have not been played. Players put cards from their hand on the
table to play them. By the end of each of their Discard Phases, a player must reduce their
hand size to a maximum of 8 cards, unless modified by a Change Hand Size effect.
At no time may the cards in a player’s hand exceed 16. This rule takes precedence over any
instruction on cards. If a card is played that instructs a player to draw cards or otherwise put
cards in their hand, they must stop at 16 regardless of the number of cards to be drawn or
returned; additional cards over 16 are protected from being put in their hand by any means.
All abilities that target hand have an implied reveal effect, where if the holder of the targeted
hand cannot complete an action required by another ability or game rule, they must reveal
that hand. For example, if a card requires a player to underdeck two good cards from hand,
they must reveal their hand if they can underdeck zero or only one. If they can underdeck
both and satisfy the requirement, there is no reveal.
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Haha, this deck is hilarious! I really hope to see some people playing this in the future!
Now the question is...will we see any combo decks at this year's T2 Only??? :maul:
I may or may not have a fun one I've been cooking up for a year... I just hope I can make it to t2 only!
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Isn't there a generic hero that can become a Disciple?
EDIT: Nevermind, I was thinking of Faithful/Watchful Leaders.
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Why no Burial Shroud in Deck or maybe Reserve to buy some time or serving as target for 3 Woes?
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Why no Burial Shroud in Deck or maybe Reserve to buy some time or serving as target for 3 Woes?
It isn't a bad idea, but there are a few reasons. Three Woes/Censer/Image/captured ark all tend to negate it and make it not a solid block. Also, most of the time I like having either Four Drachma Coin or The Great White Throne active in the artifact slot to get through my deck faster.
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On a similar note to Burial Shroud, would Mourn and Weap be worth running in a similar vein? It's more vulnerable to the Gam's speech class of card, but it'll work as a stall in the same vein as Shroud and not take up an artifact slot.
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On a similar note to Burial Shroud, would Mourn and Weap be worth running in a similar vein? It's more vulnerable to the Gam's speech class of card, but it'll work as a stall in the same vein as Shroud and not take up an artifact slot.
Yeah Mourn and Weep I would definitely like to see find a place in the deck. This list was made prior to the release of PoC.
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What year was the hand limit implemented?
Announced Aug 2009, to take effect January 2010.
Maximum hand size was put in place to nerf a combo deck that had never won anything. Errata'ing combos out of existence is not a Redemption travesty it is a Redemption tradition.
Maximum hand size was put in place to make "solitaire" combo decks in general less feasible, some of which had certainly proven successful, such as the Sin in the Camp deck that Clift created and Gabe used to win Nationals. It was not put in place to nerf one specific combo.
Sin in the Camp was errata'ed to be one per territory late 2009/early 2010. Not sure why that would have been necessary if the hand limit was the corrective.
Here is someone from back then who explains the purpose...
I like all of the ideas presented by Rob a lot except the hand limit. I agree with RDT that 16 might be a bit on the low side. However, perhaps a good compromise would be to leave it at 16, but the one time you can go over is during your draw phase. I believe for consistency's sake, we don't say that a player with 14 cards in hand (from drawing on his previous block) can only draw two during his next draw phase. This eliminates the huge drawing combos, but doesn't complicate the draw phase.
The hand size limit was put in place specifically to nerf all draw-based combo decks, regardless of whether they had ever one anything.
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Even with the T2-only looming, you didn't wait to bust this open. That's class! 8)
I think the Storehouses will hurt you more than help. If a loaded one is Shipwrecked you're kind of out of luck, right?
What if the opponent gets an early Priest of Zeus? Or Babylonian Merchants? I'm not seeing anything around those.
Eternal Covenant is probably better than Raising Lazarus.
No Herod's Temple?
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Even with the T2-only looming, you didn't wait to bust this open. That's class! 8)
I think the Storehouses will hurt you more than help. If a loaded one is Shipwrecked you're kind of out of luck, right?
What if the opponent gets an early Priest of Zeus? Or Babylonian Merchants? I'm not seeing anything around those.
Eternal Covenant is probably better than Raising Lazarus.
No Herod's Temple?
Storehouse is mainly there to be searched out by Seven years of Plenty (removes card from deck) and then allow The Dreaming Pharaoh to draw. I would never put combo pieces in, only defensive enhancements I would have to discard anyways.
Priest of Zeus/Merchants definitely are extremely problematic cards. Best solution I can think of is to either put AoTL back in or use Ark of Salvation (also can be searched out by SYoP).
I agree raising lazarus is probably one of the worst cards in the deck, eternal covenant would probably be better. Either way, probably best left in reserve and replaced with Covenant of Prayer in the main deck.
Herod's Temple might be worth trying out.
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Forgot to mention: Cool idea and nice combo! :) :thumbup: I like combos BTW.
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In response to Bab Merchants capturing your combo pieces - A New Covenant can be spammed to bring back captured NT heroes. It was crazy popular back in 2010 when Disciples decks were everywhere.
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Have you considered using Gates of Samaria to decrease Thomas to 1/1?
Have you considered using Canaanites so that you can give opponent a big numbers character to choose blocker?
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Have you considered using Gates of Samaria to decrease Thomas to 1/1?
Have you considered using Canaanites so that you can give opponent a big numbers character to choose blocker?
Seems like those ideas could work, just need to put the extra effort in to make them happen.
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So one of the players in our playgroup has used this deck in a couple tournaments now (including at the T2 Only). He's pulled it off once or twice, and been within a turn or two in a couple other games (either the opponent got to 7 or the game timed out).
I think the main issue at this point is that others in the group know it's coming and can play accordingly. The more the opponent knows about how it works, the higher potential for disruption. 8)
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So one of the players in our playgroup has used this deck in a couple tournaments now (including at the T2 Only). He's pulled it off once or twice, and been within a turn or two in a couple other games (either the opponent got to 7 or the game timed out).
I think the main issue at this point is that others in the group know it's coming and can play accordingly. The more the opponent knows about how it works, the higher potential for disruption. 8)
I'm glad some people are getting enjoyment out of it. There are definitely more reliable ways to win a game of redemption though :)
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Unfortunately in one of his games his really good opponent made a really good play by discarding Disciples of the Lamb off the top of his deck and he didn't have a way to get it back. ::)
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Unfortunately in one of his games his really good opponent made a really good play by randomly discarding Disciples of the Lamb off the top of his deck and he didn't have a way to get it back. ::)
FTFY.
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Unfortunately in one of his games his really good opponent made a really good play by discarding Disciples of the Lamb off the top of his deck and he didn't have a way to get it back. ::)
Was he not playing Abraham’s Descendant? The ability to recur pieces that were lost was one of my reasons for including that card in my list.
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I think this can be done while still having a deck and an ability to draw. 4 disciples in reserve plus Disciples of the Lamb then your offense is all of the disciples, including x2 of some, Chariot of Fire and The Nee Covenant (original), and you can still attack and make normal rescues. Constantly heal and keep out your heroes, Valley/Eternal Covenant also help, The New Covenant in case they remove anyone you need but also you do 2x Disciples for the most part and the ones you have 1x you double up on in the reserve. Wait for Disciples of the Lamb in the reserve and just run a couple Book of Jashar, not 4. Between Thad, My Lord and My God, random purple, reach/AoC, you should be just fine rescuing with constant hero recursion then pop out Disciples on them late. I don’t recall but if Disciples of the Lamb is not “if used by a disciple” then I would have an ET out and late game just Claudia ET, or just ET and play DotL. You can add provisions and Abe’s Descendant and 4x Jashar, or you can just play purple that keeps heroes out and when you’re at 4-5 mid game you pop off DotL. I don’t see a deck losing much that’s fast, keeps hitting with Thad and battle winners then gets to play SoG 3 times.
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(https://i.imgur.com/YwFF4qR.png)
DotL does specify being used by a Disciple, so you can't use it off ET. That said, you're probably right that going all in isn't worth it.
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Guys you could also run great faith the purple card that exchanges for any enh in the deck use Mathew to band to Thomas and decrease them both by 6/6 so you could have the combo faster!!
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Having the enhancement isn’t the issue, it’s kind of the whole having 12 Disciples out to be the main inhibitor.
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Points to song of Moses from RoJ
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Points to song of Moses from RoJ
You might have some difficulty matching brigade/getting initiative to play it and it isn't TC.
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Your not wrong but.. it might help🤷♂️
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side-battle shenanigans!
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You can use ehud + acts is Solomon + song of Moses to pull 10 disciples then die. As long as they have a character that's big enough for initiative, that is. Or add another provisions or two and use some other small gold hero.
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So this quickly went from draw everything and get your disciples out to add every color in Redemption and get out Song of Moses, copy it, have 10 disciples out, search for the other two, side battle and or choose the blocker, play DotL and 4 BoJ because you held all 5 cards in your hand this entire time, and hope they don’t use CM soon as they see you play the first one...I don’t see what could go wrong!
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So this quickly went from draw everything and get your disciples out to add every color in Redemption and get out Song of Moses, copy it, have 10 disciples out, search for the other two, side battle and or choose the blocker, play DotL and 4 BoJ because you held all 5 cards in your hand this entire time, and hope they don’t use CM soon as they see you play the first one...I don’t see what could go wrong!
:rollin:
Werkt fine vs my gold fish.
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It escalated quickly for sure
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The first rule of being a combo player: Always assume the opponent has no way to interact when you are assembling the combo or going off
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So this quickly went from draw everything and get your disciples out to add every color in Redemption and get out Song of Moses, copy it, have 10 disciples out, search for the other two, side battle and or choose the blocker, play DotL and 4 BoJ because you held all 5 cards in your hand this entire time, and hope they don’t use CM soon as they see you play the first one...I don’t see what could go wrong!
CM is why the deck runs Helmet of Brass for the protection
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So this quickly went from draw everything and get your disciples out to add every color in Redemption and get out Song of Moses, copy it, have 10 disciples out, search for the other two, side battle and or choose the blocker, play DotL and 4 BoJ because you held all 5 cards in your hand this entire time, and hope they don’t use CM soon as they see you play the first one...I don’t see what could go wrong!
CM is why the deck runs Helmet of Brass for the protection
cough (http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Rubble_and_Dust.png)
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Does Lacking Prophesy stop Rubble and Dust?
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I mean, it would (assuming they have more than four cards in hand), but it kinda also puts a damper on "play seven SoGs in one turn." Or even "play five SoGs in one turn."
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Very True
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So this quickly went from draw everything and get your disciples out to add every color in Redemption and get out Song of Moses, copy it, have 10 disciples out, search for the other two, side battle and or choose the blocker, play DotL and 4 BoJ because you held all 5 cards in your hand this entire time, and hope they don’t use CM soon as they see you play the first one...I don’t see what could go wrong!
CM is why the deck runs Helmet of Brass for the protection
cough (http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Rubble_and_Dust.png)
Rubble and Dust is actually the reason for including Lay Down Your Life :)
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So this quickly went from draw everything and get your disciples out to add every color in Redemption and get out Song of Moses, copy it, have 10 disciples out, search for the other two, side battle and or choose the blocker, play DotL and 4 BoJ because you held all 5 cards in your hand this entire time, and hope they don’t use CM soon as they see you play the first one...I don’t see what could go wrong!
CM is why the deck runs Helmet of Brass for the protection
cough (http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Rubble_and_Dust.png)
Finally somebody who gets it 😀😁😂
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I love how my stance has been to simplify this combo and make it more consistent and using less cards and my response was another piece to the combo before being able to play it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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I love how my stance has been to simplify this combo and make it more consistent and using less cards and my response was another piece to the combo before being able to play it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I've been debating in my mind if this is an "all or nothing" combo or if it can be incorporated into a normal Disciples T2 offense. The challenge with having it be an endgame combo in a regular offense is that if you lose even 1 Disciple that you somehow cannot get back, then you're stuck. If the opponent manages to discard some Disciples and then flips up HSR or has some discard pile banishment tricks, then you're just back to a normal Disciple deck with a couple dead cards (not the worst position to be in, but not ideal).
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That's why I think this should be a normal disciples offense with 2x of the main disciples, 1x of the rest and the ones you have 1 of you double up on in reserve. You don't need to win in one turn but playing Disciples after a couple AoC's, Thad rescues, disciples band with My Lord My God and the regular dominants you really just need 1-2 Disciples of the Lamb to hit mid-end game. Type 2 games are also timing out a lot still, no different with this set because of the upkeep phase now being that much longer with star abilities. This deck might not ever even get the chance to get out 12 disciples so I really do think a fast purple offense that has 1-2 Jashar's would be the most consistent deck. It's kind of like Eternal Inheritance decks, great concept, and even though it is a lot easier to set up, those decks still did not do great tournament wise due to the number of cards needed for a set up but when EI was played end game, that was the end of the game.