Author Topic: Is 50 cards a must in t1 anymore? (Read 6141 times)

jbeers285 · « **on:** January 13, 2015, 10:32:10 AM »

I am curious what the general redemption public thinks about the necessity of a 50 card deck. Is getting to SoG/NJ before your opponent does still the best way to win in type 1? With the shift to balanced decks in the meta (I know there is no clear meta right now) is going to 53 for another hero and 2 more battle winners worth it? Is going to 57 for more overall power and the extra Dominant worth it? Are we cutting draw enhancements for more power? Would a raw 50 card speed deck be able to blast through these balanced decks if we went back to 7-8 card defense? These are all questions I've been pondering as we begin prepping for an exciting redemption season. What do you think?

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** January 13, 2015, 10:50:10 AM »

It's a matter of probability. If you're able to win with 50 cards then every card beyond that is fluff. Can you fit more "power" into a 56 or 57 card deck. Of course! Do you need it? The answer isn't always easy. Some decks will perform better with the extra cards. Defense heavy usually needs the extra cards for example.

LukeChips · « **Reply #2 on:** January 13, 2015, 02:33:34 PM »

We will have to see with these new TEC super-fast (especially Corinthians) decks.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2015, 05:20:06 PM »

Gabe summed it up fairly nicely. I don't think 50 cards is a must, but I do believe it's better than 52, 56, or 57. Mathematically speaking, 50 cards is strictly better. Practically speaking, it's much more complicated.

Being able to modify deck size is something that sets Redemption apart from other games, so it's hard to draw a comparison to other games.

LukeChips · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2015, 05:34:46 PM »

It is so hard to know what cards to shave off your deck to make it 50 cards.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2015, 05:38:19 PM »

Quote from: LukeChips on January 13, 2015, 05:34:46 PM

It is so hard to know what cards to shave off your deck to make it 50 cards.

Play with the deck above that, and after a handful of games you usually can find:
1. Characters you never use except to place in territory.
2. Enhancements you never use because there is always a better option.
3. Artifacts you never activate.
4. Sites that never have an actual effect on the game.

And so on. Those become your cuts. And if you have an issue cutting cards, then strip it to the bare minimum (the actual most powerful cards in deck) then slowly build up to 50. When you have the last 8 or so cards, justify why that one should get in over any others. If you can't, then cut it.

Or, you can just play above 50, if you use all of the cards and don't have a problem with speed.

The Guardian · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2015, 05:43:30 PM »

I've always thought it depended on the deck.

Some decks run better at 50, others are more effective at 56.

My two T1 2P decks are currently 53 and 57.

LukeChips · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2015, 05:58:42 PM »

Woulnd'nt a 57 card deck really need 58 cards for a LS?

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2015, 06:02:24 PM »

Quote from: LukeChips on January 13, 2015, 05:58:42 PM

Woulnd'nt a 57 card deck really need 58 cards for a LS?

No, you just need to have 8 Lost Soul cards. You can have a 56 card deck with 7 souls, and then just add another soul and it is a legal 57 card deck (since that needs an 8 total).

The advantage is that each soul means one more dominant in the deck, so really you have a 56 card deck with 8 dominants and an 'extra' soul that is replaced when drawn (so it doesn't take up card advantage), and your deck is counted as 57 cards.

Legal deck building

LukeChips · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2015, 06:16:29 PM »

So you are replacing a LS for a dom!

Chris · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2015, 06:52:58 PM »

For reference, nobody in the second to last round of top cut last year had a 50 card deck. First place had 56 cards, second place had 52, and third and fourth both had 51. I think we may be getting to a point where search and draw are both incredibly ingrained into the cards that the issue of probability Gabe mentioned no longer matters as much. Additionally, there are so many good options in every theme (and a huge host of excellent neutral cards) that playing at 50 may no longer be the only optimal option, as slightly more cards gives you more answers to any given situation. If Redemption operated on a d1 system, 50 would be the best without question, but because it's a d3 (and most abilities are more than a d1), that may not be the case.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2015, 07:24:29 PM »

Quote from: Westy on January 13, 2015, 05:20:06 PM

Being able to modify deck size is something that sets Redemption apart from other games, so it's hard to draw a comparison to other games.

Both Yugioh and MtG have modifiable deck sizes...

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2015, 07:31:37 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on January 13, 2015, 07:24:29 PM

Quote from: Westy on January 13, 2015, 05:20:06 PM
Being able to modify deck size is something that sets Redemption apart from other games, so it's hard to draw a comparison to other games.

Both Yugioh and MtG have modifiable deck sizes...

This is what I get for being handed decks from those games and having the game explained to me. Whoops.

everytribe · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2015, 07:48:26 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 13, 2015, 10:32:10 AM

I am curious what the general redemption public thinks about the necessity of a 50 card deck. Is getting to SoG/NJ before your opponent does still the best way to win in type 1? With the shift to balanced decks in the meta (I know there is no clear meta right now) is going to 53 for another hero and 2 more battle winners worth it? Is going to 57 for more overall power and the extra Dominant worth it? Are we cutting draw enhancements for more power? Would a raw 50 card speed deck be able to blast through these balanced decks if we went back to 7-8 card defense? These are all questions I've been pondering as we begin prepping for an exciting redemption season. What do you think?

No
Yes
No
No
No
Thats what I Think, thanks for asking.

LukeChips · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2015, 09:36:39 AM »

Pokémon-60 cards
Yugioh-60-70
MTG-??? But I know it's modifiable.

browarod · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2015, 10:27:55 AM »

Unless Yugioh changed, the minimum is 40 not 60. Granted, it's been several years since I even looked at the rules, haha. MtG is 60+.

Previously the golden Redemption deck sizes were 50 and 51. Nowadays I feel like anywhere from 50 to 57 is valid depending on deck strategy and strength of drawing/searching. Some defense-heavy decks do alright at 63 as well, though I think that's on the lower end of the competitive spectrum.

So I don't think 50 is a "must" per se, but it's still valid statistics that the smaller your deck is the more likely you are to get to any given card in it that you're looking for.

LukeChips · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2015, 10:35:26 AM »

My friend plays Yugioh and he said that it's 60-70, but he could be wrong.

Master KChief · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2015, 11:00:54 AM »

Yugioh is 40-60, MtG is at least 60 with no maximum deck size (although you must be able to shuffle the deck with no assistance).

They may as well be fixed though as I have rarely if ever seen any decks higher than the minimum cards in competitive play.

LukeChips · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2015, 11:05:54 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on January 14, 2015, 11:00:54 AM

Yugioh is 40-60

I will have to tell my friend that he is wrong.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2015, 12:24:45 AM »

Quote from: Chris on January 13, 2015, 06:52:58 PM

For reference, nobody in the second to last round of top cut last year had a 50 card deck. First place had 56 cards, second place had 52, and third and fourth both had 51. I think we may be getting to a point where search and draw are both incredibly ingrained into the cards that the issue of probability Gabe mentioned no longer matters as much. Additionally, there are so many good options in every theme (and a huge host of excellent neutral cards) that playing at 50 may no longer be the only optimal option, as slightly more cards gives you more answers to any given situation. If Redemption operated on a d1 system, 50 would be the best without question, but because it's a d3 (and most abilities are more than a d1), that may not be the case.

In fairness, I was only at 51 because I built my deck the morning of, as per usual, and couldn't figure out what card was extra. I should have been at 50.

LukeChips · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2015, 09:20:05 AM »

I will have to cut my deck down to 50.

Chris · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2015, 04:08:56 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 15, 2015, 12:24:45 AM

Quote from: Chris on January 13, 2015, 06:52:58 PM
For reference, nobody in the second to last round of top cut last year had a 50 card deck. First place had 56 cards, second place had 52, and third and fourth both had 51. I think we may be getting to a point where search and draw are both incredibly ingrained into the cards that the issue of probability Gabe mentioned no longer matters as much. Additionally, there are so many good options in every theme (and a huge host of excellent neutral cards) that playing at 50 may no longer be the only optimal option, as slightly more cards gives you more answers to any given situation. If Redemption operated on a d1 system, 50 would be the best without question, but because it's a d3 (and most abilities are more than a d1), that may not be the case.

In fairness, I was only at 51 because I built my deck the morning of, as per usual, and couldn't figure out what card was extra. I should have been at 50.

I think that's irrelevant to the point being made though. You should remember how much I wanted to keep my deck at 50, but when push came to shove I decided to be safe and risk it (my extra card was 7 Years) rather than not have it and miss it.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2015, 04:46:57 PM »

Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2015, 04:08:56 PM

I decided to be safe and risk it

The Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2015, 05:25:47 PM »

It's higher level meta-gaming Westy...you wouldn't understand...

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2015, 05:34:46 PM »

I am Metagaming

News:

Author Topic: Is 50 cards a must in t1 anymore? (Read 6141 times)

LukeChips

Warrior_Monk

LukeChips

LukeChips

LukeChips

Chris

Warrior_Monk

LukeChips

browarod

LukeChips

LukeChips

LukeChips

Chris

Warrior_Monk