Author Topic: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks  (Read 2342 times)

Online Bobbert

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2019, 09:13:04 AM »
0
There are a lot of players that can pilot and pioneer strategies competently, but in general, a true meta deck in Redemption is a deck that has an efficient defense, draws, and searches well. The deck archetype should also have proven itself by placing consistently at Nationals.  It's reasonable to think of the "meta"  differently because of the size of this game.

I'm not sure how this makes your point.
We're specifically talking about an offense, so 'efficient defense' is a bit of a tangent. Even so, Flood pairs exceedingly well with a crimson defense, which is one of the most efficient out there.
Flood may not have a lot of straight drawing, true, but it more than compensates. I may be biased, but generally speaking I value a "look at top X and take 1" approximately the same as a "draw two" - sure, it's one fewer card, but it's much more likely to be one that has immediate impact. This is especially true when X=8, but even at 3 it's valuable. Add to this the fact that you're searching out two extra heroes every rescue and the speed aspect is well covered.
Red mentioned how well Flood has done at Nats. I don't think it was really viable until last year (the FoM wives and Rainbow are crucial to the deck's success), but since then it's been a top 3 T12P deck at Nats.

Can you elaborate on how you do consider the meta? Are there any specific decks you're thinking of?
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Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2019, 02:51:17 PM »
-5
consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2019, 03:37:26 PM »
+4
Having worked to some degree with John on whatever he chooses to play at Nationals for a few years now I'm fairly confident to say that John figures out the meta and plays something that does well against it. John doesn't tend to play a meta deck.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2019, 04:30:10 PM »
+3
Meta is just the top-preforming decks you see the most that you need to consider when building your deck, which Flood definitely is, along with things like musicians and throne.  If you are building a deck and don't say to yourself "how will this handle Flood decks? music decks? Throne decks? " then I would say you are making a mistake, because those are "meta" decks and you will see them a lot and need to prepare for them.  I would almost say John's deck wasn't meta going into nationals, as I haven't seen anything quite like it before, but it will most likely be meta now because it won and more people will use it.  Meta isn't determined by 1 deck, but by all the decks being used and the strategies you need to plan for to have an effective deck

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2019, 05:11:33 PM »
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Having worked to some degree with John on whatever he chooses to play at Nationals for a few years now I'm fairly confident to say that John figures out the meta and plays something that does well against it. John doesn't tend to play a meta deck.

Confirm.

2018 was probably a "meta" deck in the sense that the offense was Throne taken to the extreme. But the defense was unique
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2019, 07:55:34 PM »
+2
When I was thinking about how to build my deck for Nats (Mostly which defense to run) the only two things I cared about was A. Can it beat Throne and B. Can it beat Flood. My opinion of the meta going into Nats was that the top decks were Throne, Flood, and Teal (Only if the meta was still greedy instead of anti-greedy), and the possibility of a top tier Green/x build that I didn't know about. My thoughts post-Nats are unchanged except that I now know the identity of the top tier Green/x build. If the meta were to swing more in the direction of anti-greed decks like John's, Teal would be the first to drop out of top tier.

Nowhere in my analysis is Flood anything but top tier. My guess is that decks like John's are favored against Flood but that doesn't mean Flood isn't top tier it just means we have a healthy meta. Regardless of how strong of a turn out Nats has, I don't view calling a deck with three representations in top cut anything but top tier a defendable position.

Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2019, 01:00:25 AM »
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I'll check my compliments at the door next time.
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Offline Asahel24601

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2019, 11:57:35 AM »
0
consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
As someone who has experience with both flood and Throne, I'd honestly rather play against Throne, as it's a much easier deck to beat. Flood has the searching to get Ark and half their offense on turn one at minimum. And sure, Throne draws a lot of cards, but Flood's impossible to get rid of, and has consistent battle extension, a CBN in-territory negate, and a lot more.

I honestly don't know what other evidence you need that it's meta. It's a deck to tech around. It's powerful enough to earn multiple spots in top cut. It's fast, and it's hard to block. What else do you need to know?

Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2019, 12:27:36 AM »
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consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
As someone who has experience with both flood and Throne, I'd honestly rather play against Throne, as it's a much easier deck to beat. Flood has the searching to get Ark and half their offense on turn one at minimum. And sure, Throne draws a lot of cards, but Flood's impossible to get rid of, and has consistent battle extension, a CBN in-territory negate, and a lot more.

I honestly don't know what other evidence you need that it's meta. It's a deck to tech around. It's powerful enough to earn multiple spots in top cut. It's fast, and it's hard to block. What else do you need to know?

The "other" evidence we need is the deck consistently placing 1-2 at nationals. So, probably 3 years .
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2019, 03:11:11 AM »
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consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
As someone who has experience with both flood and Throne, I'd honestly rather play against Throne, as it's a much easier deck to beat. Flood has the searching to get Ark and half their offense on turn one at minimum. And sure, Throne draws a lot of cards, but Flood's impossible to get rid of, and has consistent battle extension, a CBN in-territory negate, and a lot more.

I honestly don't know what other evidence you need that it's meta. It's a deck to tech around. It's powerful enough to earn multiple spots in top cut. It's fast, and it's hard to block. What else do you need to know?

The "other" evidence we need is the deck consistently placing 1-2 at nationals. So, probably 3 years .

Deck results don't matter across multiple years. Every instance of new cards being released is a completely separate meta. It's arguable that even post and pre Nationals with the same card pool count as unique metas.

Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2019, 03:01:44 PM »
-2
consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
As someone who has experience with both flood and Throne, I'd honestly rather play against Throne, as it's a much easier deck to beat. Flood has the searching to get Ark and half their offense on turn one at minimum. And sure, Throne draws a lot of cards, but Flood's impossible to get rid of, and has consistent battle extension, a CBN in-territory negate, and a lot more.

I honestly don't know what other evidence you need that it's meta. It's a deck to tech around. It's powerful enough to earn multiple spots in top cut. It's fast, and it's hard to block. What else do you need to know?

The "other" evidence we need is the deck consistently placing 1-2 at nationals. So, probably 3 years .

Deck results don't matter across multiple years. Every instance of new cards being released is a completely separate meta. It's arguable that even post and pre Nationals with the same card pool count as unique metas.

Deck results don't matter in determining what's meta in a game that never bans cards?  I hope you feel special using the world meta but it's probably the most over-used term on here. Deck results don't matter  ;D
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2019, 04:35:36 PM »
-1
consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
As someone who has experience with both flood and Throne, I'd honestly rather play against Throne, as it's a much easier deck to beat. Flood has the searching to get Ark and half their offense on turn one at minimum. And sure, Throne draws a lot of cards, but Flood's impossible to get rid of, and has consistent battle extension, a CBN in-territory negate, and a lot more.

I honestly don't know what other evidence you need that it's meta. It's a deck to tech around. It's powerful enough to earn multiple spots in top cut. It's fast, and it's hard to block. What else do you need to know?

The "other" evidence we need is the deck consistently placing 1-2 at nationals. So, probably 3 years .

Deck results don't matter across multiple years. Every instance of new cards being released is a completely separate meta. It's arguable that even post and pre Nationals with the same card pool count as unique metas.

Deck results don't matter in determining what's meta in a game that never bans cards?  I hope you feel special using the world meta but it's probably the most over-used term on here. Deck results don't matter  ;D
across multiple years is the key phrase here. Deck results do matter, but not nearly as much as some of the Redemption community believes. Nationals happens once a year in a specific geographic location with a very small subset of players. Drawing concrete conclusions from one tournament just doesn't seem reasonable.

Also, Redemption does ban cards as well as using errata to achieve essentially the same function.
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Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2019, 06:20:20 PM »
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consistently third hahaaa and lets be honest. Top cut was not as stacked as it could have been the turnout was lackluster at best. I'm not arguing that Flood isn't a viable strategy. All I am trying to get at is this, and I am almost embarrassed that the discussion has devolved to this, John Earley will continue to crush flood decks. The best answer to the question, "what is meta in Redemption?",  is usually, whatever John is playing.  Generally, meta decks usually have the qualities I have listed in my previous post. It's borderline arrogant to think that flood can compete with splash offenses that draw and search out what they need at (at the top level).  Just because a lot of people play a strategy does NOT make the deck meta. Until it wins nationals it's a cool, powerful strategy that can crush meta decks imo. Which, when you think about it is something that is right up some top players alleys and is somewhat refreshing. I hate meta decks because they are no fun to play against and they are actually not fun to pilot, only the consistent adrenaline rush from winning is fun. Personally, I get sick of all of the drawing and searching that spread offenses run in type 1 2 player  (some combination of judges/prophets/teal) but until this "strong horse" loses have fun losing with flood  :-*
As someone who has experience with both flood and Throne, I'd honestly rather play against Throne, as it's a much easier deck to beat. Flood has the searching to get Ark and half their offense on turn one at minimum. And sure, Throne draws a lot of cards, but Flood's impossible to get rid of, and has consistent battle extension, a CBN in-territory negate, and a lot more.

I honestly don't know what other evidence you need that it's meta. It's a deck to tech around. It's powerful enough to earn multiple spots in top cut. It's fast, and it's hard to block. What else do you need to know?

The "other" evidence we need is the deck consistently placing 1-2 at nationals. So, probably 3 years .

Deck results don't matter across multiple years. Every instance of new cards being released is a completely separate meta. It's arguable that even post and pre Nationals with the same card pool count as unique metas.

Deck results don't matter in determining what's meta in a game that never bans cards?  I hope you feel special using the world meta but it's probably the most over-used term on here. Deck results don't matter  ;D
across multiple years is the key phrase here. Deck results do matter, but not nearly as much as some of the Redemption community believes. Nationals happens once a year in a specific geographic location with a very small subset of players. Drawing concrete conclusions from one tournament just doesn't seem reasonable.

Also, Redemption does ban cards as well as using errata to achieve essentially the same function.

You're making my argument for me.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2019, 08:56:01 PM »
+1
Either that or you’re agreeing but think you’re arguing.  ;)
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Online jhendrix6426

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2019, 05:03:20 PM »
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It's pretty intense in this thread these days..