Author Topic: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)? - Deck added  (Read 1368 times)

Offline Reth

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50 or 56 cards (or even more)? - Deck added
« on: January 14, 2019, 04:06:25 PM »
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Hi guys,

what's your opinion for T1? Is there still the rule of thumb to go for 50 cards if possible? With all the new abilities and mechanics, with tons of cards going through decks and reserves picking out what you want while producing souls on your own or for your opponent this seems to might have changed?

At least from pure Maths when having 56 cards your souls/non-souls ratio is better and you can put in more helpful cards from the more and more increasing card pool.

So what do you think? Or do you think this is situational according to the deck idea?

Looking forward to your thoughts!

PS: Deck has been added at appropriate position here.

Bye
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 04:42:33 PM by Reth »

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2019, 04:10:08 PM »
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I used to be all about the 56 card deck, but now I only run 50.  I ran 56 to help hide lost souls and fit in more cards, but with all the soul gen these days its not worth it and running 50 gets you to your doms faster. 

Offline Gabe

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2019, 04:17:53 PM »
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The ideal deck size is going to depend on the deck, but most of the time a 50 card deck is going to be the right choice simply based on probability.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2019, 04:26:03 PM »
+2
I think most decks are best at either 50 or 51 (while some disagree with this, I believe the 1 card difference between 50 and 51 is statistically insignificant).

That being said, I think there are some legitimate deck strategies that can work as a bigger deck, but I would likely run 57 over 56 so I can have the extra dominant.   8)
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2019, 04:53:03 PM »
+1
Just play the max. Triple sleeved. Play A new beginning multiple times.  :maul:

Or what Guardian said. That probably works too.

Offline goalieking87

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 05:47:11 PM »
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I think most decks are best at either 50 or 51 (while some disagree with this, I believe the 1 card difference between 50 and 51 is statistically insignificant).

That being said, I think there are some legitimate deck strategies that can work as a bigger deck, but I would likely run 57 over 56 so I can have the extra dominant.   8)

Interesting comment  RE the 51 cards.

I would assume this is due to the 8 draw at the beginning, 7 lost souls, and 3 cards at the beginning of each turn?

51 - 8 - 7 = 36 / 3 = 12 turns to deck out
50 - 8 - 7 = 35 / 3 = 11.67 which means you would still deck out on turn 12 and just draw one less card.

The counter-argument being that the math above is thrown off when you add other draw/search abilities and having an extra card could still essentially make you have one more turn to deck out.

Of course the significance of decking out would be getting to the cards you need to win as soon as possible.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 05:54:12 PM »
+2
My opinion on 51/52 vs 50 is that the main thing you lose by going up the extra cards is consistency. Even if the math shows it's insignificant, there will still be some games where the card you needed was on the top of your deck instead of in your hand and if you didn't run that extra card you would have it. The strongest argument I know of for putting in the extra cards is that the game is so fast and decking out so common that the extra card(s) are basically free since otherwise you'd just be drawing nothing. My counter to that argument is basically that if you have a deck that consistently draws all 50 cards early in the game and has trouble winning after doing so, you need to reevaluate your deck. Consistency is the most valuable trait of every deck in every card game I know of.

Offline Reth

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 06:00:41 PM »
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Biggest problem for me is always cutting. Going down from 63 to 56 was not easy but manageable. But going from 56 down to 50 is almost nearly impossible for me it seems. In my current build I now have a setting of 52 cards in main deck and 10 in reserve and cannot decide what else to cut (or maybe replace and cut others).
They all feel equally important for playing and possible situations. How to get the final few % done?

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 06:05:51 PM »
+2
Biggest problem for me is always cutting. Going down from 63 to 56 was not easy but manageable. But going from 56 down to 50 is almost nearly impossible for me it seems. In my current build I now have a setting of 52 cards in main deck and 10 in reserve and cannot decide what else to cut (or maybe replace and cut others).
They all feel equally important for playing and possible situations. How to get the final few % done?

Honestly if you're at 52, that's probably a good place to start playing a bunch of games, and as you do observe cards that don't function as well as you thought they would, or that you find yourself not using. Those are the ones I would cut
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 06:33:31 PM »
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Interesting comment  RE the 51 cards.

I would assume this is due to the 8 draw at the beginning, 7 lost souls, and 3 cards at the beginning of each turn?


Actually, my reasoning is more related to Kevinthedude's comment above. I believe he is correct that consistency is the key, but IMO the odds are simply negligible when it comes to a 1 card difference.

For example, let's say I have 3 specific cards in my deck that I'm hoping to draw at least one of in my opening hand of 8.
If I have a 51 card deck (44 non-LS, 7 LS), then my odds of having at least 1 of those 3 cards is 46.1%. If I have a 50 card deck (43 non-LS, 7 LS) then my odds only improve to 47% (incidentally if I run 52, the odds decrease to 45.2%). So in 1000 games, the 50 card deck will have one of those key cards 470 times and the 51 card deck will have one of them 461 times.*

I understand the "top card" argument, but the odds of that happening with a 50 card deck are just ever so slightly less than it happening with a 51 card deck. Furthermore, I believe the instances of that happening are balanced with the instances where the 51st card means you draw a Lost Soul one turn later, and once in awhile that means LS droughting your opponent for a turn.

So really it just comes down to what you believe is significant...if you think 1 game out of 100 (or 9 games out of 1000) is significant (given a .9% difference between 50 and 51) then you should stick with 50. However, what you need to weigh that against is the difference the 51st card makes. If using that card increases your win total by just 10 games out of 1000 then it is worth using because even though you lost 9 games by having that extra card, you won 10 games.

*I grant that this is just one very simplistic way to measure deck consistency, but because of the randomness factor, it's the approach I like to take. For example, I believe that if I draw at least one EC in my opening hand, my odds of winning improve greatly (this belief is based on experience, not actual data or stats).
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 06:35:34 PM »
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Biggest problem for me is always cutting. Going down from 63 to 56 was not easy but manageable. But going from 56 down to 50 is almost nearly impossible for me it seems. In my current build I now have a setting of 52 cards in main deck and 10 in reserve and cannot decide what else to cut (or maybe replace and cut others).
They all feel equally important for playing and possible situations. How to get the final few % done?

Honestly if you're at 52, that's probably a good place to start playing a bunch of games, and as you do observe cards that don't function as well as you thought they would, or that you find yourself not using. Those are the ones I would cut

+1

Offline The Guardian

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 06:36:02 PM »
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Biggest problem for me is always cutting. Going down from 63 to 56 was not easy but manageable. But going from 56 down to 50 is almost nearly impossible for me it seems. In my current build I now have a setting of 52 cards in main deck and 10 in reserve and cannot decide what else to cut (or maybe replace and cut others).
They all feel equally important for playing and possible situations. How to get the final few % done?

Honestly if you're at 52, that's probably a good place to start playing a bunch of games, and as you do observe cards that don't function as well as you thought they would, or that you find yourself not using. Those are the ones I would cut

RDT is absolutely correct. Even just playing 3 or 4 games (preferably against difference decks) can usually give you a good idea of which cards you never really use. Obviously the  more games you play the better, but there have been times where it only took me a few games to realize that a certain card was simply not worth using.
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Offline Reth

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 06:46:50 PM »
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With this deck I had the most games played when it started with 63 cards and it seemed to work well. Of course there have been some cards I never used - mostly due to the related situations did not occur.
Afterwards I cut it down to 56 (The Guardian also helped me here - thanks again). With this version I had some test games but only one real game against goalieking87. He helped me improve this deck further (also thanks to you). Now I am at the next stage.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 08:24:39 PM »
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I will say that one thing that helped me finally start to cut decks down to size was by evaluating cards based on if they help me win the game or just helped me "win more". Basically if the card is overkill or just helps your already winning board state its not really helping. Finding out what those cards may be and trying to tune for optimal cards and consistency in a deck takes time and testing but usually involves evaluating how much cards actually further me winning a game compared to alternatives including not having certain cards being in the deck at all.

Offline Master Q

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 08:37:21 PM »
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Biggest problem for me is always cutting. Going down from 63 to 56 was not easy but manageable. But going from 56 down to 50 is almost nearly impossible for me it seems. In my current build I now have a setting of 52 cards in main deck and 10 in reserve and cannot decide what else to cut (or maybe replace and cut others).
They all feel equally important for playing and possible situations. How to get the final few % done?

I was at 70 cards when I started playing for about the first year or so. After I started winning tournaments, I went to 63, then again to 56 (for a long time). It was a lot harder to cut to 50 before the dom cap, but now most of my decks end up at 50 or 51.

Post your deck and I'm sure people will offer suggestions on what to cut for 50, or, if you prefer, what to add for 57 (as 57 is superior to 56 for the extra dom).
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 10:10:31 PM »
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I played 63 card decks for years, and between Nats 2017 and the release of FoM I ran a 57 card Tabernacle deck so that running Glory didn't hurt too much. I'm terrible at cutting. The Reserve actually helped me with that, I think; I tended to put my more "tech-y" cards there, which helped make it obvious when they weren't being used.

That said, nowadays I shoot for 50. The game is so fast that you consistently need your setup cards on turn one, so making the ideal opener as likely as possible is important.
Grain of salt with that: I'm currently running 52; I need to play people other than my brother to know which two cards I need to trim.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 10:23:23 PM »
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Personally, I always run 50, unless the deck I'm playing is just ridiculously fast. at that point, 54 is about the max i'll go, but it usually lands at 52. I think the only deck I ever ran with 57 was my watchful servant/greek deck.
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Offline Red

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 12:05:56 AM »
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I ran 54 cards at Nationals 2012. I took 10th.

I ran 52 cards at Nationals 2015. I don't want to talk about that day.

I ran 51 cards at Nationals 2016. I took 15th, but was playing for top cut and won Iron Man.

I ran 50 cards at Nationals 2017. I took 7th with a six game undefeated streak.

I ran 50 cards this past Nationals. I took third and won Iron Man again.

Consistency matters. The decks that I ran at the past two nationals were close to knife-edge consistent and both were a tight fifty cards. I didn't rehash everything I have ever done to blow my own horn, I did it to illustrate that the consistency given by a tight list is worth all of the struggle to get there. In 2012, my deck just didn't work some games. I was scared of various things that were flying around and didn't play a tight list. I paid for it (I also wasn't playing at the best level yet on top of a bad list.) 2015's decklist was unsynergistic and didn't play well, nor was my list tight. I paid for it. Since then, I've learned a tremendous amount about deck building and tweaking. Learn from your peers and cut down your decklist for maximum success.
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Offline Reth

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)? - Deck added
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 04:41:11 PM »
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Thanx again altogether. So here we go (since it's no secret at least anymore resp. never has really been  :)).
The deck does not have name (thought about Animalistic Music or Prophetic Music) - currently 52 cards.


Doms
Son of God (J)
Angel of the Lord (J)
The Second Coming
Guardian of Your Souls (RoJ)
Christian Martyr (J)
Falling Away (CoW)
Destruction of Nehushtan (will be replaced by 3 Woes as soon as I will my hands get on one)

Support
Hidden Treasures
You Will Remain
The Tabernacle (Promo)
Kinsmen's Agreement

Heroes
The Angel Under the Oak
David the Psalmist
Music Leader
Samuel (RoA)
Chenaniah
Miriam
Hannah
Jephthah's Daughter

GEs
The Lord Goes Before You
Sing with Stringed Instruments
Love Righteousness
Spiritual Warfare
Virgin Birth (PoC)
Nunc Dimittis
Faith of Moses Parents
Faith of Daniel
Samuel's Edict

ECs
Nebuchadnezzar (TxP)
The Serpent (Promo)
Fire Foxes
Fiery Serpents (FoM)
Wild Dogs (RoJ)
Bear (CoW)
The Deceiver (RoJ)
Behemoth (RoJ)
Leviathan (FoM)
Babylon The Harlot (RoJ)

EEs
Belshazzar's Banquet
Dream
Anthropophobia
Deceitful Sin
Achan's Sin (I)
Scattered
Serpent's Curse

Souls
Lost Soul (Forsaken)
Lost Soul (Imitate)
Lost Soul Jeremiah 7:18 (Female Only) (H)
Lost Soul (Hunter)
Lost Soul (Wicked)
Lost Soul Romans 3:23 (Revealer)
Lost Soul Acts 11:18 (NT Only)


Reserve:
Jephthah (J)
Uzzah
Fire from Heaven (RoJ)
Temple Dedication
Foreign Wives
Hate Wickedness
Asaph
Cymbals of the Levites
Word of Christ
I am Love


Basic ideas are to get as much preblock damage as possible while profiting from vast recursion and exchange possibilities and going through deck (or reserve) fetching relevant/situational stuff and underdeck souls if possible. This backed up by some strong animals with negates, some stall blocks and some draw possibilities.
 
So far I already cut: Mayhem, Hypocrisy, Betrayal (PoC), Holy Grail, HSR (want to slow down opponent), Daughter's Grief, Gleaning the Fields (J) - to get FireFoxes or Kinsmen's back and several others.
There are still a lot of GEs but quite some of them are just for fetching necessary stuff or if no longer necessary to get exchanged with reserve stuff.

At least souls can surely be optimised as well as Reserve. Thoughts, comments, ideas, hints, tips, costructive criticism highly welcome!

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)? - Deck added
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 05:50:12 PM »
+1
Just from a quick glance at the list it seems like you may struggle with having heroes consistently in the opening. (Especially specific ones). Personally I would probably switch out a GE for a Hero. Cards like I am creator/Book of the covenant with an IaC in reserve could boost your consistency a lot.

The main thing ill suggest when trying to cut cards from your current list is to evaluate cards based on whether they actually help you win the game vice just win more. Basically cards that dont seriously help your consistency or battle winning capabilities to get to 3 souls plus SoG+SC are often win more cards and may not need to be in a deck. Even something like the # of characters/battle winners/consitency cards may need to be trimmed because they just arent as needed as getting to key cards may be better. Theres always personal preferences though so if you really want a card thats ok. For competitiveness though you have to scrutinize the little differences and just because a card is good doesnt necessarily mean your deck is better if it keeps you from accessing your best cards.

Offline Josh

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)? - Deck added
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2019, 11:11:32 AM »
+2
Just from a quick glance at the list it seems like you may struggle with having heroes consistently in the opening. (Especially specific ones). Personally I would probably switch out a GE for a Hero. Cards like I am creator/Book of the covenant with an IaC in reserve could boost your consistency a lot.

The main thing ill suggest when trying to cut cards from your current list is to evaluate cards based on whether they actually help you win the game vice just win more. Basically cards that dont seriously help your consistency or battle winning capabilities to get to 3 souls plus SoG+SC are often win more cards and may not need to be in a deck. Even something like the # of characters/battle winners/consitency cards may need to be trimmed because they just arent as needed as getting to key cards may be better. Theres always personal preferences though so if you really want a card thats ok. For competitiveness though you have to scrutinize the little differences and just because a card is good doesnt necessarily mean your deck is better if it keeps you from accessing your best cards.

To continue the conversation, I see 14 GEs between your deck and your Reserve.  You already have SoG/TSC/AotL to get you 3 of the 5 you need, and you'll lose 2-3 rescues to opponen't Doms like CM and Falling Away.  So you maybe need to win at most 5 souls with your GEs.  You've got more firepower than you need, especially with Music Leader recursion.

If Hidden Treasures is primarily in the deck to play Spiritual Warfare preblock, I'd probably drop both of those to get you to 50. 

Faith of Daniel could go as well, since your deck isn't set up to make it as powerful as it could be.
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Offline Reth

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Re: 50 or 56 cards (or even more)? - Deck added
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2019, 01:58:49 PM »
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Thanks for your responses. I meanwhile switched Asaph from reserve with Nunc from deck.

To continue the conversation, I see 14 GEs between your deck and your Reserve.  You already have SoG/TSC/AotL to get you 3 of the 5 you need, and you'll lose 2-3 rescues to opponen't Doms like CM and Falling Away.  So you maybe need to win at most 5 souls with your GEs.  You've got more firepower than you need, especially with Music Leader recursion.

If Hidden Treasures is primarily in the deck to play Spiritual Warfare preblock, I'd probably drop both of those to get you to 50. 

Faith of Daniel could go as well, since your deck isn't set up to make it as powerful as it could be.

To be honest I expect ML to be negated/DC'ed/hindered most of the times.

Hidden is in not only for Warfare but also for other preblock action like Temple Dedication, The Lord Goes Before You, Faith of Daniel (even more when AutO is out) - preblock action was one of the main ideas when I constructed this deck.

Faith of Daniel almost always helps due to the animal defense and becomes more valueable as soon as AutO stays on table or opponent has an angel in play.

Why do you think those are less valuable then the other GEs?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:02:09 PM by Reth »