Author Topic: Zeal for the Lord and 2 Color Evil Characters (Read 13023 times)

DaClock · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2009, 04:35:04 PM »

John, if I play Zeal and choose to kill Self then I can't kill any other evil characters because there is no "second" evil brigade. If I choose any evil character that isn't Self, I won't be able to choose self because it is all the brigades.

TAS is less restrictive because it is 2 brigades, not 7. If I kill brown OR gold I cannot kill TAS because it is both. If I kill TAS I cannot kill brown or gold for my second EC because it is both.

Master KChief · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2009, 05:25:22 PM »

Quote from: DaClock on January 03, 2009, 04:35:04 PM

John, if I play Zeal and choose to kill Self then I can't kill any other evil characters because there is no "second" evil brigade. If I choose any evil character that isn't Self, I won't be able to choose self because it is all the brigades.

right. but say there is a self, orange ec, and crimson ec in play. if i play zeal, i cannot choose to only discard self; i MUST choose to discard the orange and crimson ec because you must fulfill as much of the special ability of zeal as possible. which leads back to what i was saying...if there are at least 2 other ec's in play of different brigades, self can never be the target of zeal.

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2009, 06:38:59 PM »

So if, when you target The Amalekites' Slave, you're targeting both the Gold and Brown brigades, then it stands to reason that once Zeal targets Self, it is targeting the Black, Brown, Pale Green, Gold, Crimson, Gray, and Orange brigades. Since the second discard has to be of a different brigade as the one you already discarded, it seems to me that there are no brigades left for Zeal to discard and thus it can only discard Self and no others (or one other and then not Self). Right?

DaClock · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2009, 06:40:48 PM »

Quote from: Tsavong Lah on January 03, 2009, 06:38:59 PM

So if, when you target The Amalekites' Slave, you're targeting both the Gold and Brown brigades, then it stands to reason that once Zeal targets Self, it is targeting the Black, Brown, Pale Green, Gold, Crimson, Gray, and Orange brigades. Since the second discard has to be of a different brigade as the one you already discarded, it seems to me that there are no brigades left for Zeal to discard and thus it can only discard Self and no others (or one other and then not Self). Right?

That is what I'm thinking. John is saying that because you're supposed to complete as much of the ability as possible, you would be forced to discard a brown and a crimson evil character because if you discard Self you don't complete as much of the ability as possible.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2009, 07:21:02 PM »

I am inclined to agree with the Master. I thought the main premise of the Jephthah ruling was availability of targets. In this case, there are other targets available. I would think that Self could only be targeted in it is the only EC or one of only two, after taking into account various protections.

lightningninja · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:04:35 PM »

This is how I see it, and would rule it.

It doesn't say that a character can't share a brigade. It just says that they have to have a different brigade. So, you can discard uzzah and the amelakite's slaves. Yes they share a brigade, but they are still characters of different brigades. Is Uzzah brown and gold? No. Therefore, they are different and both eligable.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #31 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:17:00 PM »

Nicely put.

Master KChief · « **Reply #32 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:20:05 PM »

Quote from: fireninja on January 04, 2009, 05:04:35 PM

This is how I see it, and would rule it.

It doesn't say that a character can't share a brigade. It just says that they have to have a different brigade. So, you can discard uzzah and the amelakite's slaves. Yes they share a brigade, buy they are still characters of different brigades. Is Uzzah brown and gold? No. Therefore, they are different and both eligable.

im confused...

different =/= cannot share?

actually, im pretty sure it means the exact opposite...

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #33 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:24:08 PM »

Meaning... different = DO share? Zeal just became ten times more powerful!

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #34 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:26:14 PM »

I agree with the Master that "different" is more restrictive, not less. Amalekite's Slave is brown brigade. You cannot put that aside to just look at the gold brigade. If you have discarded a brown brigade character, then you cannot discard another one.

lightningninja · « **Reply #35 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:26:52 PM »

No, they can share, but they still have different brigades.

DaClock · « **Reply #36 on:** January 04, 2009, 05:28:13 PM »

Quote from: fireninja on January 04, 2009, 05:04:35 PM

This is how I see it, and would rule it.

It doesn't say that a character can't share a brigade. It just says that they have to have a different brigade. So, you can discard uzzah and the amelakite's slaves. Yes they share a brigade, but they are still characters of different brigades. Is Uzzah brown and gold? No. Therefore, they are different and both eligable.

Uzzah is not gold, just brown. TAS is gold and brown.

Discard Uzzah, what color did you discard? Brown. That means you cannot discard another brown EC, even if it is part gold.
Discard TAS, what color did you discard? Gold AND Brown. That means you cannot discard another brown EC or another gold EC.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #37 on:** January 04, 2009, 09:07:14 PM »

Quote

Interrupt the battle and discard two Evil Characters of different brigades.

Interpretation 1.

You select King Zed (which is brown) first. You then want to discard Amalekites Slave. Is TAS also brown? Yes. Therefore it is not a legitimate target.

Interpretation 2.

You select King Zed (which is brown) first. You then want to discard Amalekites Slave. Does TAS belong to a brigade that is different than brown. Yes. Therefore it is a legitimate target.

Those are both true. They have different answers because they ask different questions. They are different ways to look at what it means to be "different".

I think this can legitimately be interpreted either way. Obviously it needs to be decided which way it will be. If it said "discard two evil guys of ONLY different brigades" or "discard two evil guys with no brigades in common" then it could only be the first interpretation. Since it does not say that then I think it is possible to ignore the common brigade and only look to see if there is one that is different. So I am leaning towards the second interpretation. I think this also depends on the timing of the targeting.

If you choose TAS first then you cannot target King Zed (since he does not have a brigade that is different than gold or brown). So if targets are chosen simultaneously then I don't think you can pick those two since you'll be comparing both ways. Now the cards sounds like the targets are simultaneous but I thought the rules governing multiple targets indicate that one is chosen at a time (like in banding). So if this is true and TAS is chosen second then I think that leads to the 2nd interpretation.

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #38 on:** January 04, 2009, 09:15:05 PM »

I think that, based on the ruling that you must ignore both brigades of Antiochus to completely ignore him (essentially: dual-color characters are both colors, not whichever one you choose them to be at the moment), the first interpretation of TAS would be the correct one. TAS is both brigades at once, and so when you discard a character from one of those brigades with Zeal, then you can't discard TAS.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #39 on:** January 04, 2009, 09:20:15 PM »

I agree with Tsavong's example, since the point here is that TAS is brown and gold simultaneously. You cannot choose to look at the gold brigade and disregard the brown brigade, IMO.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #40 on:** January 04, 2009, 09:38:26 PM »

That is not correct. To target a character you only have to be able to target one of their brigades, so if you ignore black or gray then you ignore Antiochus. To be immune to a character then you have to be immune to all of their brigades. I don't think that affects the interpretation of this card. It doesn't say that once you discard a brown character then all other brown characters are protected. It says to discard different ones.

Again that depends on, is difference defined as being totally different so you check to sse if they have anything in common (that is, if they have something in common then they can't be different) or is difference defined as having something that is different regardless of what they have in common? Clearly Gold brigade is different than Brown brigade and clearly the characters have something in common AND something that is different.

You seem to be checking to see if they have something in common (so the brown brigade cannot be disregarded). Why is that the correct defintion of being "different"? Why not instead check to see if there is A difference to determine whether or not they are "different"? In that case I am not disregarding TAS's brown brigade, it just doesn't matter since it's gold brigade meets the qualification.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #41 on:** January 04, 2009, 11:09:32 PM »

We obviously are not getting anywhere, since there are two distinctly logical answers. We need an executive decision, although Mods are scarce these days.

As of right now, any tournament that I or DaClock host will not allow Uzzah and TAS to be discarded with Zeal, but at any tournament hosted by Galad or the ninja you will. That is clearly a problem.

STAMP · « **Reply #42 on:** January 04, 2009, 11:16:49 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 04, 2009, 11:09:32 PM

We obviously are not getting anywhere, since there are two distinctly logical answers. We need an executive decision, although Mods are scarce these days.

As of right now, any tournament that I or DaClock host will not allow Uzzah and TAS to be discarded with Zeal, but at any tournament hosted by Galad or the ninja you will. That is clearly a problem.

At least in this case, DaClock and I agree.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #43 on:** January 05, 2009, 01:31:59 AM »

Quote from: Tsavong Lah on January 04, 2009, 09:15:05 PM

I think that, based on the ruling that you must ignore both brigades of Antiochus to completely ignore him (essentially: dual-color characters are both colors, not whichever one you choose them to be at the moment), the first interpretation of TAS would be the correct one. TAS is both brigades at once, and so when you discard a character from one of those brigades with Zeal, then you can't discard TAS.

Where was that ruling made? Based on this thread, http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12455.0, ignoring one brigade ignores the whole character. It seems like there was potential to make a ruling change to line up with the immunity rulings regarding multi-color characters, but neither Bryon or Schaef posted that a rule change happened. Therefore you point is moot.

Kirk

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #44 on:** January 05, 2009, 01:59:46 AM »

Quote

Where was that ruling made? Based on this thread, http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12455.0, ignoring one brigade ignores the whole character. It seems like there was potential to make a ruling change to line up with the immunity rulings regarding multi-color characters, but neither Bryon or Schaef posted that a rule change happened. Therefore you point is moot.

I was referencing that thread when I made my point, but I could have sworn that the ruling went the opposite way. My bad.

EDIT: Reading through that thread again, I must have been thinking of immunity earlier, not ignore.

NWJosh · « **Reply #45 on:** January 05, 2009, 09:07:29 AM »

Either way I need a ruling to this because I use Zeal in T2 and this affects me in alot of ways. So if there could be an official ruling on this I would be SUPER appreciative.

STAMP · « **Reply #46 on:** January 05, 2009, 10:33:42 AM »

Well, if there is nothing on the books by the time the next tournament rolls around you'll know how I'll judge it.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #47 on:** January 05, 2009, 11:03:38 AM »

Wow Gabe. You were right about this causing quite the discussion from our game.

I can see the logic behind both interpretations for targeting for discard and depending on if I'm using Zeal or having Zeal used against me depends on what interpretation I like the best.

Going with the spirit of Redemption, Good will always prevail, hence a small justification for keeping Zeals targeting capabilities liberal. As there is no current ruling on this situation you can bash my statement all you want, but we won't get anywhere. I wouldn't mind it being ruled either way, just as long as it stays consistent and doesn't set off a chain reaction of unanticipated future rulings/change of rulings down the road.

Godspeed,
Mike

@ Gabe - kinda reminds me of I Am Salvation vs. the Hopper, Hormah, Female and Site Doubler.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #48 on:** January 05, 2009, 11:39:33 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 04, 2009, 11:09:32 PM

We obviously are not getting anywhere, since there are two distinctly logical answers. We need an executive decision, although Mods are scarce these days.

As of right now, any tournament that I or DaClock host will not allow Uzzah and TAS to be discarded with Zeal, but at any tournament hosted by Galad or the ninja you will. That is clearly a problem.

I also could see both ways, but until someone official makes a ruling, I will join Galad, Ninja, and Godspeed, and allow Zeal to discard Uzzah and TAS at my tournaments. TAS is a different brigade than Uzzah (as well as the same brigade), and therefore I will allow it to be targeted.

lightningninja · « **Reply #49 on:** January 05, 2009, 03:57:17 PM »

Quote from: DaClock on January 04, 2009, 05:28:13 PM

Quote from: fireninja on January 04, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
This is how I see it, and would rule it.

It doesn't say that a character can't share a brigade. It just says that they have to have a different brigade. So, you can discard uzzah and the amelakite's slaves. Yes they share a brigade, but they are still characters of different brigades. Is Uzzah brown and gold? No. Therefore, they are different and both eligable.
Discard Uzzah, what color did you discard? Brown. That means you cannot discard another brown EC, even if it is part gold.

Please show me where it says that a character cannot have the same brigade. Zeal only says that they have to be different. It doesn't say that they can't have a shared brigade. The brown on TAS doesn't matter at that point. All that matters is that you are discarding one character who has brown, and another character who has gold. They are different, therefore both eligable.

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Author Topic: Zeal for the Lord and 2 Color Evil Characters (Read 13023 times)