Author Topic: Two Bears with multibrigade cards  (Read 2055 times)

kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2017, 07:53:26 AM »
-1
In the example, upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected? The answer is no.

Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected.

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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2017, 11:04:50 AM »
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In the example, upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected? The answer is no.

Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected.

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Tell me then in the example, which brigade was both not selected and had a valid target remaining?

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2017, 11:35:25 AM »
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I play Two bears on Hosea against Ahab. Ahab is of course shuffled, but I also have Promo The Serpent, Every Man's Sword CoW , and astrologers all in my territory. Which would be shuffled?

No cards are shuffled because King Ahab negates Two Bears... ::)

Two Bears counts cards and shuffles one card of each evil brigade. The controller of Two Bears selects which cards are shuffled. Two Bears can shuffle a maximum of one card of black, brown, orange, pale green, gold, gray, and crimson. Here's the list of cards in that scenario (assuming King Ahab is not negating Two Bears):

Ahab, in battle - Brown
Serpent, territory - Crimson, Pale Green, Orange
Every Man's Sword - Crimson, Pale Green, Orange, Black, Brown, Gold, Gray
Astrologers - Crimson, Pale Green

If these are the only evil cards on the table (somehow EMS is floating without a bearer), then Two Bears can shuffle a maximum of four and a minimum of three. If the opponent controlled all of these cards, you would want to shuffle them all, so you'd select colors that would allow you to target each of them. Ahab as brown, Serpent as orange, Astrologers as crimson, EMS as any remaining brigades. If you didn't want to shuffle Ahab, you'd select EMS as brown.

Since you choose the targets for Two Bears individually, you choose what counts as what. Obviously, you select Ahab to shuffle as a Brown card. You can choose EMS to count as any (except brown in this case), but Two Bears only counts EMS once total. So, assuming you don't want to shuffle all of your cards, you could select EMS to shuffle as crimson or pale green. As soon as you select a multicolor card as a target, it ceases to count as a multicolor card and is counted as the brigade you selected for it. So, it is shuffled (let's count it as crimson), and then you are left with Black, Gold, Gray, Orange, Pale Green as options for shuffling. You then choose The Serpent to shuffle, leaving you with Astrologers in territory. Since Black, Gold, Gray, and Orange are the only evil brigades that have not had a card of theirs shuffled, Astrologers is not shuffled as he is not those colors.


Another scenario: If the opponent only controls Foreign Wives and Silly Women, and you control only Egyptian Rebel and Sapphira, you can select all of them to be shuffled, or, by choosing FW to be gold and SW to be crimson, you shuffle only the opponent's characters.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 11:38:10 AM by Master Q »
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2017, 11:38:56 AM »
-2
Two Bears

If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into owner's deck.

you are assuming that EMS is no longer an option for every other brigade on the table once selected..

you MUST select one of each brigade in play to proceed to shuffle. EMS is still every other brigade even after you select it. it's not a one way road to check this condition. you can't select ems for crimson first off and assume that makes it only a crimson card in play. two bears checks every card in play before proceeding to shuffle even after you make your selection of ems for crimson, it is still a black card, a gold card, and an orange card which must be selected as having a unique brigade in play to meet this condition

the selection must complete before proceeding. so once again,

In the example given, upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected? The answer is no.

Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected.

and to once again to answer the original question with my same answer,
all would have to be shuffled to make this condition "upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected?" True

This is like a card saying "dc an evil card" and you don't dc one. if there is an evil card in play to dc, you have to dc it
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 11:55:00 AM by kariusvega »

Offline Master Q

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2017, 11:46:51 AM »
+1
EMS is still every other brigade even after you select it.

No it isn't. As soon as you realize this, this Q answers itself.
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2017, 11:48:10 AM »
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so how does it become 1 single brigade for the purpose of this condition being met?

Offline Master Q

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2017, 11:54:55 AM »
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so how does it become 1 single brigade for the purpose of this condition being met?

Two Bears must shuffle all multicolor evil cards like EMS and FW. But as soon as you select it to shuffle, you select a viable color that can be shuffled (orange, pale green, crimson, black, gold, gray, or brown). As soon as you select one of these colors, whatever you selected cannot be targeted again for shuffle.

You band in Heroes one at a time. From how I've always played it, Two Bears shuffles evil cards one at a time. If the only evil cards on the table are your Judas and the opponent's FW, if you select and shuffle FW as crimson, when she's shuffled there are no other evil brigades that Two Bears hasn't shuffled left for it to shuffle. You've met the condition.
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2017, 11:56:40 AM »
-2
the card clearly says select. shuffle.

Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected. and can not proceed to shuffle any cards until this condition is met

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2017, 12:04:05 PM »
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Apologies, I cannot explain it more clearly. If the only evil cards on the table were all multicolor like Foreign Wives, then yes, Two Bears would shuffle all of them (assuming there were up to 7).
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2017, 12:07:11 PM »
-1
i mean i understand what everyone is saying here who disagrees with me. i really get it, and i don't take it personally or anything!! so no hard feelings guys!

but the reality is that the card says make a selection, which has to be completely fulfilled before proceeding to shuffle, and unlike what everyone else is saying where ems becomes no longer an optional selection, the fact is that you have to select it as a unique brigade before proceeding to shuffle

If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. (did you select one card of each? they are still on the table to be selected as unique brigades regardless of which you chose them specifically as to begin with or to end with. now is that condition fulfilled?) Shuffle them into owner's deck.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2017, 12:19:34 PM »
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i mean i understand what everyone is saying here who disagrees with me. i really get it, and i don't take it personally or anything!! so no hard feelings guys!

but the reality is that the card says make a selection, which has to be completely fulfilled before proceeding to shuffle, and unlike what everyone else is saying where ems becomes no longer an optional selection, the fact is that you have to select it as a unique brigade before proceeding to shuffle

If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. (did you select one card of each? they are still on the table to be selected as unique brigades regardless of which you chose them specifically as to begin with or to end with. now is that condition fulfilled?) Shuffle them into owner's deck.

The actual reality is that you're confusing your own arbitrary way of how you think the card works with how the game is actually played.

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2017, 12:19:58 PM »
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JD, I've struggled myself with trying to figure out why I can't select the same card more than once with Two Bears (as you want to do with EMS).

Before I give my explanation of how it seems to work, here is Two Bears' ability:

Two Bears - "If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play.  Shuffle them into owner’s deck."

The phrase "select one card of each evil brigade in play" is where my hangup used to be (and where yours is currently).  This phrase doesn't have a Redemption "rule" tied to it, because on its own it is technically meaningless.  It is actually part of the Shuffle ability.  That's why you make a selection, shuffle, then make a selection, shuffle, and so on.

The best example I can think of to compare to is an ability like Simon the Magician:

Simon the Magician - "Protect Lost Souls in Samaria Sites from rescue. N.T. evil cards cannot be negated unless Peter, John or Philip the Evangelist is in play."

If Peter is in play and a FBTN hero attacks, then Simon blocks, the "unless Peter, John or Philip the Evangelist is in play" portion of Simon's ability isn't negated (therefore letting Simon play CBN EEs, despite Peter being in play).  Phrases that use "...unless..." and "...if..." that are tied to other abilities can't be viewed as separate abilities; they need to be viewed as extensions of the abilities they are clarifying. 

The RoJ Ark of the Covenant is similar - if a lone Abaddon negates Ark while blocking a Revelation hero, the hero doesn't get CBN enhancements against 1 EC, because the "If two or more ECs" clause is tied to the CBN clause, not a separate ability.

It is the same way with Two Bears.  The "Select" clause is tied to the Shuffle ability, and that's why you select/shuffle/select/shuffle/etc.
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2017, 12:23:07 PM »
-1
Okay so for the purposes of this ruling

Two bears is being official errata'd to say select and shuffle one card of each evil brigade in play one at a time?

It actually is two separate things happening
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 12:25:28 PM by kariusvega »

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2017, 12:29:28 PM »
-1
Selecting and shuffling one at a time wouldn't solve anything nor is it how the card works. You select all the targets then shuffle all of them at once.

You have a list of every brigade on the table. which in this case is all of them. Then you fill in the list with targets until you run out. This list has to follow two rules. First rule is that each brigade has to have a card selected for it unless there are no targets for that brigade left. The second is that each card can only be used in the list one time.

Pale Green - Sword

Gold - No gold targets because sword is targeted already

Brown - Ahab

Black - No black targets because sword is targeted already

Grey - No grey targets because sword is targeted already

Crimson - The Serpent

Orange - No orange targets left because The Serpent is targeted already

The list has now been filled while following the two rules so the cards are shuffled. Astrologers remains on the table.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 12:42:17 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Josh

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2017, 12:29:52 PM »
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It actually is two separate things happening

It isn't.  "Select an evil brigade" is not a Redemption ability.  "Select an evil brigade" clause tells you how you shuffle.  So you get to shuffle a card with an evil brigade of your choice, and afterwards you get to do it again, assuming a brigade is in play that you haven't shuffled yet.
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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2017, 12:32:20 PM »
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It's not two separate abilities--it's one ability that uses two sentences.

"Shuffle them into owner's deck." is not an ability by itself.
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2017, 12:47:07 PM »
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Okay so that is where the difference lies.. It is in fact select/shuffle, not make a selection as the cards reads, followed by shuffling..

Probably needs an errata imo.. There is a period there between those things happening  :laugh:

I am using programming logic to try to ultimately get this game into something like Hearthstone one day to greatly streamline the learning process and ease this learning curve we got which I think is a huge barrier.

kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2017, 12:52:42 PM »
-1
Still sticking to if this is the case that Two Bears could singularly shuffle one multi brigade card for all

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2017, 01:01:24 PM »
+3
Probably needs an errata imo.. There is a period there between those things happening  :laugh:

There are cards on which separate sentences indicate separate abilities. There are also cards on which separate sentences are used to describe how abilities work. Two Bears is clearly the later. You cannot generically apply either method to all cards and expect them all to make sense.

Still sticking to if this is the case that Two Bears could singularly shuffle one multi brigade card for all

It's fine that you feel that way as long as you understand your feelings don't change the game rules or the way cards are played. ;)
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kariusvega

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Re: Two Bears with multibrigade cards
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2017, 01:03:26 PM »
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Sure but card interpretations and wording is very unique in Redemption and having a learning mindset is one reason I love this game!

I mean I just learned how much more exponentially powerful Noah is just because of his wording somehow allowing for him to shuffle any card in your hand/territory for 2 flood survivors!

 


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