Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BanjoMan on April 30, 2017, 05:45:26 PM
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I play Two bears on Hosea against Ahab. Ahab is of course shuffled, but I also have Promo The Serpent, Every Man's Sword CoW , and astrologers all in my territory. Which would be shuffled?
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All of them
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All of them
Depending on the targets chosen Astrologers wouldn't have to be shuffled.
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One of each there are 7 brigades with ems
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Thanks, that's what I thought.
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One of each there are 7 brigades with ems
What if I choose to target Serpent for pale green and sword as crimson? I can't choose astrologers in that scenario.
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There are 7 in play which means 7 or as many up to 7 are shuffled simply for ems
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Two Bears doesn't shuffle per brigade, it shuffles one of each brigade present. Kevin's example is correct.
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Two Bears doesn't shuffle per brigade, it shuffles one of each brigade present. Kevin's example is correct.
Agreed, because of how you select targets in regards to Two Bears
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So what about all targets are selected when it's played? If the number of brigades is 7, how are you not picking one of each?
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It doesn't say "count the brigades in play and choose that many targets".
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Okay sure so what are you selecting for gold, black, and all of the other ones?
Kind of trying to understand by that logic why you couldn't just do ems since it has all of them..
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Okay sure so what are you selecting for gold, black, and all of the other ones?
You just aren't because there aren't enough valid targets.
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Right but if you get to pick whatever you want since the condition doesn't have to be met for 7 why not just do 1 of all? Ems
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Right but if you get to pick whatever you want since the condition doesn't have to be met for 7 why not just do 1 of all? Ems
Because you can only target a single card with it once.
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+1 with Kevin, Daniel, John and Gabe. 8)
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So I can just pick ems for all of them then
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Nope, you select EMS for one of them then the rest based on what you selected for EMS.
Technically you could select one of the others first, but that would be silly cuz EMS is always going to get shuffled unless you have 7 other cards with all the evil brigades.
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Yeah but it says one of each why not just pick 1 with each?
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One card per for each target brigade. That's how Two Bears' ability works.
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Yeah but it says one of each why not just pick 1 with each?
You are picking one of each. Pale green for Serpent, crimson for sword, and then you're out of valid targets since all the brigades of astrologers are taken. Everyone is just repeating each other at this point, there isn't really anything left for us to tell you.
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"One card of each brigade" which ems is one card of each brigade
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"Of," not "for."
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yeah i changed my argument to the other end of the spectrum for the sake of unveiling the logic here lacking a two way function
i'm not confused on what is being said, i get the intention.
if you can select ems as crimson, serpent as pale green, to can't select astrologers in the end you effectively aren't shuffling a card of each brigade in play.
if you are able to do this, then you are able to select one card in play of each brigade.. which is in fact one card ems, which has each in play
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yeah i changed my argument to the other end of the spectrum for the sake of unveiling the logic here lacking a two way function
i'm not confused on what is being said, i get the intention.
if you can select ems as crimson, serpent as pale green, to can't select astrologers in the end you effectively aren't shuffling a card of each brigade in play.
if you are able to do this, then you are able to select one card in play of each brigade.. which is in fact one card ems, which has each in play
Where are you getting the idea you can target one card multiple times?
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In the example, upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected? The answer is no.
Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected.
Love yall
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In the example, upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected? The answer is no.
Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected.
Love yall
Tell me then in the example, which brigade was both not selected and had a valid target remaining?
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I play Two bears on Hosea against Ahab. Ahab is of course shuffled, but I also have Promo The Serpent, Every Man's Sword CoW , and astrologers all in my territory. Which would be shuffled?
No cards are shuffled because King Ahab negates Two Bears... ::)
Two Bears counts cards and shuffles one card of each evil brigade. The controller of Two Bears selects which cards are shuffled. Two Bears can shuffle a maximum of one card of black, brown, orange, pale green, gold, gray, and crimson. Here's the list of cards in that scenario (assuming King Ahab is not negating Two Bears):
Ahab, in battle - Brown
Serpent, territory - Crimson, Pale Green, Orange
Every Man's Sword - Crimson, Pale Green, Orange, Black, Brown, Gold, Gray
Astrologers - Crimson, Pale Green
If these are the only evil cards on the table (somehow EMS is floating without a bearer), then Two Bears can shuffle a maximum of four and a minimum of three. If the opponent controlled all of these cards, you would want to shuffle them all, so you'd select colors that would allow you to target each of them. Ahab as brown, Serpent as orange, Astrologers as crimson, EMS as any remaining brigades. If you didn't want to shuffle Ahab, you'd select EMS as brown.
Since you choose the targets for Two Bears individually, you choose what counts as what. Obviously, you select Ahab to shuffle as a Brown card. You can choose EMS to count as any (except brown in this case), but Two Bears only counts EMS once total. So, assuming you don't want to shuffle all of your cards, you could select EMS to shuffle as crimson or pale green. As soon as you select a multicolor card as a target, it ceases to count as a multicolor card and is counted as the brigade you selected for it. So, it is shuffled (let's count it as crimson), and then you are left with Black, Gold, Gray, Orange, Pale Green as options for shuffling. You then choose The Serpent to shuffle, leaving you with Astrologers in territory. Since Black, Gold, Gray, and Orange are the only evil brigades that have not had a card of theirs shuffled, Astrologers is not shuffled as he is not those colors.
Another scenario: If the opponent only controls Foreign Wives and Silly Women, and you control only Egyptian Rebel and Sapphira, you can select all of them to be shuffled, or, by choosing FW to be gold and SW to be crimson, you shuffle only the opponent's characters.
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Two Bears
If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into owner's deck.
you are assuming that EMS is no longer an option for every other brigade on the table once selected..
you MUST select one of each brigade in play to proceed to shuffle. EMS is still every other brigade even after you select it. it's not a one way road to check this condition. you can't select ems for crimson first off and assume that makes it only a crimson card in play. two bears checks every card in play before proceeding to shuffle even after you make your selection of ems for crimson, it is still a black card, a gold card, and an orange card which must be selected as having a unique brigade in play to meet this condition
the selection must complete before proceeding. so once again,
In the example given, upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected? The answer is no.
Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected.
and to once again to answer the original question with my same answer,
all would have to be shuffled to make this condition "upon completion, was one card of each evil brigade in play selected?" True
This is like a card saying "dc an evil card" and you don't dc one. if there is an evil card in play to dc, you have to dc it
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EMS is still every other brigade even after you select it.
No it isn't. As soon as you realize this, this Q answers itself.
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so how does it become 1 single brigade for the purpose of this condition being met?
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so how does it become 1 single brigade for the purpose of this condition being met?
Two Bears must shuffle all multicolor evil cards like EMS and FW. But as soon as you select it to shuffle, you select a viable color that can be shuffled (orange, pale green, crimson, black, gold, gray, or brown). As soon as you select one of these colors, whatever you selected cannot be targeted again for shuffle.
You band in Heroes one at a time. From how I've always played it, Two Bears shuffles evil cards one at a time. If the only evil cards on the table are your Judas and the opponent's FW, if you select and shuffle FW as crimson, when she's shuffled there are no other evil brigades that Two Bears hasn't shuffled left for it to shuffle. You've met the condition.
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the card clearly says select. shuffle.
Two bears checks to see if you met the condition and finds: False - one of each was not selected. and can not proceed to shuffle any cards until this condition is met
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Apologies, I cannot explain it more clearly. If the only evil cards on the table were all multicolor like Foreign Wives, then yes, Two Bears would shuffle all of them (assuming there were up to 7).
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i mean i understand what everyone is saying here who disagrees with me. i really get it, and i don't take it personally or anything!! so no hard feelings guys!
but the reality is that the card says make a selection, which has to be completely fulfilled before proceeding to shuffle, and unlike what everyone else is saying where ems becomes no longer an optional selection, the fact is that you have to select it as a unique brigade before proceeding to shuffle
If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. (did you select one card of each? they are still on the table to be selected as unique brigades regardless of which you chose them specifically as to begin with or to end with. now is that condition fulfilled?) Shuffle them into owner's deck.
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i mean i understand what everyone is saying here who disagrees with me. i really get it, and i don't take it personally or anything!! so no hard feelings guys!
but the reality is that the card says make a selection, which has to be completely fulfilled before proceeding to shuffle, and unlike what everyone else is saying where ems becomes no longer an optional selection, the fact is that you have to select it as a unique brigade before proceeding to shuffle
If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. (did you select one card of each? they are still on the table to be selected as unique brigades regardless of which you chose them specifically as to begin with or to end with. now is that condition fulfilled?) Shuffle them into owner's deck.
The actual reality is that you're confusing your own arbitrary way of how you think the card works with how the game is actually played.
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JD, I've struggled myself with trying to figure out why I can't select the same card more than once with Two Bears (as you want to do with EMS).
Before I give my explanation of how it seems to work, here is Two Bears' ability:
Two Bears - "If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into owner’s deck."
The phrase "select one card of each evil brigade in play" is where my hangup used to be (and where yours is currently). This phrase doesn't have a Redemption "rule" tied to it, because on its own it is technically meaningless. It is actually part of the Shuffle ability. That's why you make a selection, shuffle, then make a selection, shuffle, and so on.
The best example I can think of to compare to is an ability like Simon the Magician:
Simon the Magician - "Protect Lost Souls in Samaria Sites from rescue. N.T. evil cards cannot be negated unless Peter, John or Philip the Evangelist is in play."
If Peter is in play and a FBTN hero attacks, then Simon blocks, the "unless Peter, John or Philip the Evangelist is in play" portion of Simon's ability isn't negated (therefore letting Simon play CBN EEs, despite Peter being in play). Phrases that use "...unless..." and "...if..." that are tied to other abilities can't be viewed as separate abilities; they need to be viewed as extensions of the abilities they are clarifying.
The RoJ Ark of the Covenant is similar - if a lone Abaddon negates Ark while blocking a Revelation hero, the hero doesn't get CBN enhancements against 1 EC, because the "If two or more ECs" clause is tied to the CBN clause, not a separate ability.
It is the same way with Two Bears. The "Select" clause is tied to the Shuffle ability, and that's why you select/shuffle/select/shuffle/etc.
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Okay so for the purposes of this ruling
Two bears is being official errata'd to say select and shuffle one card of each evil brigade in play one at a time?
It actually is two separate things happening
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Selecting and shuffling one at a time wouldn't solve anything nor is it how the card works. You select all the targets then shuffle all of them at once.
You have a list of every brigade on the table. which in this case is all of them. Then you fill in the list with targets until you run out. This list has to follow two rules. First rule is that each brigade has to have a card selected for it unless there are no targets for that brigade left. The second is that each card can only be used in the list one time.
Pale Green - Sword
Gold - No gold targets because sword is targeted already
Brown - Ahab
Black - No black targets because sword is targeted already
Grey - No grey targets because sword is targeted already
Crimson - The Serpent
Orange - No orange targets left because The Serpent is targeted already
The list has now been filled while following the two rules so the cards are shuffled. Astrologers remains on the table.
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It actually is two separate things happening
It isn't. "Select an evil brigade" is not a Redemption ability. "Select an evil brigade" clause tells you how you shuffle. So you get to shuffle a card with an evil brigade of your choice, and afterwards you get to do it again, assuming a brigade is in play that you haven't shuffled yet.
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It's not two separate abilities--it's one ability that uses two sentences.
"Shuffle them into owner's deck." is not an ability by itself.
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Okay so that is where the difference lies.. It is in fact select/shuffle, not make a selection as the cards reads, followed by shuffling..
Probably needs an errata imo.. There is a period there between those things happening :laugh:
I am using programming logic to try to ultimately get this game into something like Hearthstone one day to greatly streamline the learning process and ease this learning curve we got which I think is a huge barrier.
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Still sticking to if this is the case that Two Bears could singularly shuffle one multi brigade card for all
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Probably needs an errata imo.. There is a period there between those things happening :laugh:
There are cards on which separate sentences indicate separate abilities. There are also cards on which separate sentences are used to describe how abilities work. Two Bears is clearly the later. You cannot generically apply either method to all cards and expect them all to make sense.
Still sticking to if this is the case that Two Bears could singularly shuffle one multi brigade card for all
It's fine that you feel that way as long as you understand your feelings don't change the game rules or the way cards are played. ;)
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Sure but card interpretations and wording is very unique in Redemption and having a learning mindset is one reason I love this game!
I mean I just learned how much more exponentially powerful Noah is just because of his wording somehow allowing for him to shuffle any card in your hand/territory for 2 flood survivors!