Author Topic: the magi: magicians? (Read 7517 times)

Master KChief · « **on:** August 20, 2009, 02:49:24 AM »

are the magi magicians? i've heard arguments from both sides, and im unsure.

Ironica · « **Reply #1 on:** August 20, 2009, 10:14:42 AM »

For the game, yes

The Magi
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search deck for a N.T. Artifact and add it to hand. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Magician • Verse: Matthew 2:1 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 5)

New Raven BR · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2009, 10:17:03 AM »

ya think Jesus' birth converted the magi to live a life of Godliness?

Ironica · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2009, 10:20:36 AM »

Quote from: New Raven BR on August 20, 2009, 10:17:03 AM

ya think Jesus' birth converted the magi to live a life of Godliness?

Who knows.

I personally don't see them as magicians but the REG says they are so for the game, they are.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:33:58 PM »

They were definitely astrologers. I don't know enough about them where I would be certain about them being Magicians or not, but it's certainly worthy of discussion.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:42:35 PM »

If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?

The Warrior · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:44:00 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on August 20, 2009, 06:42:35 PM

If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?

first thing i thought

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:51:11 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on August 20, 2009, 06:42:35 PM

If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?

Umm, no. Not all Astrologers are Magicians. Not all Magicians are Astrologers.

adamfincher · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:59:10 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 20, 2009, 06:51:11 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on August 20, 2009, 06:42:35 PM
If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?

Umm, no. Not all Astrologers are Magicians. Not all Magicians are Astrologers.

. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares

The Warrior · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:02:50 PM »

Quote from: adamfincher on August 20, 2009, 06:59:10 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on August 20, 2009, 06:51:11 PM
Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on August 20, 2009, 06:42:35 PM
If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?

Umm, no. Not all Astrologers are Magicians. Not all Magicians are Astrologers.
. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares

i dont get how that relates

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:11:39 PM »

While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty.

The Warrior · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:17:12 PM »

Hey

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 20, 2009, 07:11:39 PM

While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty.

on a side note, would "Hero-Vs-Hero" be blocking? (for King Dave vs Magi)

Tshcow

The Warrior

sk · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:23:21 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 20, 2009, 07:11:39 PM

While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty.

I tried that in Booster Draft at Nationals (especially since them not being royalty means they can't use either enhancement in the tin). Bryon told me they were only kings in traditional carols.

He offered to get a second opinion, but their lack of identifier make a successful appeal unlikely.

FresnoRedemption · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:32:41 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 20, 2009, 07:11:39 PM

While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty.

Other than the fact that the magi brought expensive gifts, there is no Scriptural support that the magi were royalty. After all, they may have simply been bringing the gifts on behalf of a king from the East. The magi were definitely astrologers (after all, they followed a star all the way to where Jesus was born). I don't believe they should be considered royalty for the game, and I don't see any Scriptural support for them being magicians, either.

FresnoRedemption · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:54:20 PM »

Quote from: Da Muzik Maker on August 20, 2009, 07:53:01 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on August 20, 2009, 06:42:35 PM
If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?

and why do all astrologers have to be bad? how do you think they found jesus if they werent astrologers? just cause ther was a big star? well most likely every one saw it, but did every one follow it?

Because astrology is classified with witchcraft, and other demonic activites, and is strictly forbidden in Scripture.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:04:40 PM »

Ok, then, maybe we should go back to the root word of Magi then and see why that word is used in scripture if they were not Magicians? I would imagine that Magi would be those that use magic, but I could be wrong...

FresnoRedemption · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:07:16 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on August 20, 2009, 08:04:40 PM

Ok, then, maybe we should go back to the root word of Magi then and see why that word is used in scripture if they were not Magicians? I would imagine that Magi would be those that use magic, but I could be wrong...

Well, as someone said the word "magi" was short for "magistrate." I'm not exactly sure what a "magistrate" did, however. But my translation of the Bible simply calls them "wise men". Maybe "magi" is one possible translation of the word used for them? I just meant that there's no real Scriptural support that they practiced magic, since astrology itself does not automatically entail the use of magic. It's simply interpreting the "stars", such as a horoscope.

Edit: Did a little bit of checking and one website I came across said that "magi" comes from the Latinized form of the Greek word "magoi", transliterated from Persian, for a select sect of priests. It also went on to mention that we get the word "magic" from the same root word.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:10:19 PM »

Quote from: The Warrior on August 20, 2009, 07:17:12 PM

on a side note, would "Hero-Vs-Hero" be blocking? (for King Dave vs Magi)

No. The rulebook definition of block says that "only evil characters may block."

lightningninja · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:39:11 PM »

*prays that the magi are kings*

Master KChief · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:53:34 PM »

Wise men
The term “wise men” appears 44 times in the Bible, and the meaning varies somewhat.

The first mention of “wise men” is in the account of Jacob's son, Joseph, in Genesis 41:8 where it says that the pharaoh "called for all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men" [Hebrew: chakam] to interpret his dream. Chakam means intelligent, skillful, artful or cunning man. This same word is used throughout the rest of the Old Testament, except in the Book of Daniel.

In Daniel, the word used in the original language is chakamim or chakkiym from a root corresponding to chakam. The first of these “wise men” is mentioned in Daniel 2:12. At this time, “wise men” apparently consisted of three different types: (1) astrologers, (2) Chaldeans, and (3) soothsayers.

In the New Testament, three different words are translated as “wise men.”

1.The Magi who worshipped Jesus. The first word translated “wise men” is the Greek word magos. This is the same as magus, an old Persian word equivalent to the chakam of the Old Testament (above). Magi is the plural of magus.

lightningninja · « **Reply #20 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:55:44 PM »

Where did you find that?

New Raven BR · « **Reply #21 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:57:22 PM »

so K cheif.
the magi were converted to christianity when they witnessed Jesus laying in the manger?

lightningninja · « **Reply #22 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:59:18 PM »

"Christians" weren't around.

Did they believe in Christ at that time... maybe. They might have already done that. I believe it said that they had been waiting for a king.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2009, 09:03:52 PM »

Quote from: New Raven BR on August 20, 2009, 08:57:22 PM

so K cheif.
the magi were converted to christianity when they witnessed Jesus laying in the manger?

"Christianity" didn't exist then. In fact it didn't exist until a long time AFTER the messiah's death.

Also, on the point of the Magi being magicians...

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."

"An observer of times" is a direct comment on Astrology (see: Horoscopes). Since this is lumped together with all the other "magics" I believe it's a reasonable assumption to say that Astrologers could be considered Magicians.

Master KChief · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2009, 09:07:24 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on August 20, 2009, 08:55:44 PM

Where did you find that?

i got it from christiananswers.net.

theres not a whole lot of information regarding the magi: no one knows exactly how many there were, if they were kings, or anything. but since the same hebrew word was used for them as in the old testament, i say we stick to precedence and lump them in together with magicians.

News:

Author Topic: the magi: magicians? (Read 7517 times)

Ironica

Ironica

FresnoRedemption

FresnoRedemption

FresnoRedemption