Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master KChief on August 20, 2009, 02:49:24 AM
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are the magi magicians? i've heard arguments from both sides, and im unsure.
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For the game, yes
The Magi
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search deck for a N.T. Artifact and add it to hand. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Magician • Verse: Matthew 2:1 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 5)
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ya think Jesus' birth converted the magi to live a life of Godliness?
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ya think Jesus' birth converted the magi to live a life of Godliness?
Who knows.
I personally don't see them as magicians but the REG says they are so for the game, they are.
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They were definitely astrologers. I don't know enough about them where I would be certain about them being Magicians or not, but it's certainly worthy of discussion.
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If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?
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If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?
+1 first thing i thought
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If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?
Umm, no. Not all Astrologers are Magicians. Not all Magicians are Astrologers.
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If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?
Umm, no. Not all Astrologers are Magicians. Not all Magicians are Astrologers.
+1. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares ;D
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If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?
Umm, no. Not all Astrologers are Magicians. Not all Magicians are Astrologers.
+1. all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares ;D
i dont get how that relates
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While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty. ::)
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Hey
While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty. ::)
on a side note, would "Hero-Vs-Hero" be blocking? (for King Dave vs Magi)
Tshcow
The Warrior
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While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty. ::)
I tried that in Booster Draft at Nationals (especially since them not being royalty means they can't use either enhancement in the tin). Bryon told me they were only kings in traditional carols. :dunno: He offered to get a second opinion, but their lack of identifier make a successful appeal unlikely.
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While we're discussing identifiers for the magi I'd like to note that church tradition says they're kings and even has names for them. Therefore I think they should be considered royalty. ::)
Other than the fact that the magi brought expensive gifts, there is no Scriptural support that the magi were royalty. After all, they may have simply been bringing the gifts on behalf of a king from the East. The magi were definitely astrologers (after all, they followed a star all the way to where Jesus was born). I don't believe they should be considered royalty for the game, and I don't see any Scriptural support for them being magicians, either.
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If the Magi were astrologers and 'Astrologers' evil character is a magician then doesn't it logically follow that the Magi should be classified as Magicians?
and why do all astrologers have to be bad? how do you think they found jesus if they werent astrologers? just cause ther was a big star? well most likely every one saw it, but did every one follow it?
Because astrology is classified with witchcraft, and other demonic activites, and is strictly forbidden in Scripture.
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Ok, then, maybe we should go back to the root word of Magi then and see why that word is used in scripture if they were not Magicians? I would imagine that Magi would be those that use magic, but I could be wrong...
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Ok, then, maybe we should go back to the root word of Magi then and see why that word is used in scripture if they were not Magicians? I would imagine that Magi would be those that use magic, but I could be wrong...
Well, as someone said the word "magi" was short for "magistrate." I'm not exactly sure what a "magistrate" did, however. But my translation of the Bible simply calls them "wise men". Maybe "magi" is one possible translation of the word used for them? I just meant that there's no real Scriptural support that they practiced magic, since astrology itself does not automatically entail the use of magic. It's simply interpreting the "stars", such as a horoscope.
Edit: Did a little bit of checking and one website I came across said that "magi" comes from the Latinized form of the Greek word "magoi", transliterated from Persian, for a select sect of priests. It also went on to mention that we get the word "magic" from the same root word.
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on a side note, would "Hero-Vs-Hero" be blocking? (for King Dave vs Magi)
No. The rulebook definition of block says that "only evil characters may block."
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*prays that the magi are kings*
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Wise men
The term “wise men” appears 44 times in the Bible, and the meaning varies somewhat.
The first mention of “wise men” is in the account of Jacob's son, Joseph, in Genesis 41:8 where it says that the pharaoh "called for all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men" [Hebrew: chakam] to interpret his dream. Chakam means intelligent, skillful, artful or cunning man. This same word is used throughout the rest of the Old Testament, except in the Book of Daniel.
In Daniel, the word used in the original language is chakamim or chakkiym from a root corresponding to chakam. The first of these “wise men” is mentioned in Daniel 2:12. At this time, “wise men” apparently consisted of three different types: (1) astrologers, (2) Chaldeans, and (3) soothsayers.
In the New Testament, three different words are translated as “wise men.”
1.The Magi who worshipped Jesus. The first word translated “wise men” is the Greek word magos. This is the same as magus, an old Persian word equivalent to the chakam of the Old Testament (above). Magi is the plural of magus.
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Where did you find that?
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so K cheif.
the magi were converted to christianity when they witnessed Jesus laying in the manger?
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"Christians" weren't around.
Did they believe in Christ at that time... maybe. They might have already done that. I believe it said that they had been waiting for a king.
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so K cheif.
the magi were converted to christianity when they witnessed Jesus laying in the manger?
"Christianity" didn't exist then. In fact it didn't exist until a long time AFTER the messiah's death.
Also, on the point of the Magi being magicians...
"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."
"An observer of times" is a direct comment on Astrology (see: Horoscopes). Since this is lumped together with all the other "magics" I believe it's a reasonable assumption to say that Astrologers could be considered Magicians.
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Where did you find that?
i got it from christiananswers.net.
theres not a whole lot of information regarding the magi: no one knows exactly how many there were, if they were kings, or anything. but since the same hebrew word was used for them as in the old testament, i say we stick to precedence and lump them in together with magicians.
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+1
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so K cheif.
the magi were converted to christianity when they witnessed Jesus laying in the manger?
"Christianity" didn't exist then. In fact it didn't exist until a long time AFTER the messiah's death.
Well, it depends on your definition of "long time." The Christian church was starting in chapter two of Acts. And Christians were first called Christians in Antioch in Acts 11. So it wasn't all that long a time, but it did occur *after* Jesus' death.
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He means Christianity as a religion.
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Again, I would make the argument that Christianity as a religion jumpstarted with Jesus' death and really started gaining legs during the Passover in Acts 2.
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It didn't start til at least 200 A.D or so, probably later.
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Can I just point out one thing? Just because they followed a star doesn't make them necessarily Astrologers. It makes them Astronomers. Not evil. Also they were good enough to have God call them over with a miracle.
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Can I just point out one thing? Just because they followed a star doesn't make them necessarily Astrologers. It makes them Astronomers. Not evil. Also they were good enough to have God call them over with a miracle.
Most astronomers do not track star patterns to find a king. ;)
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so is ronald mcdonald evil because he always asks if we believe in magic? hmm...
ronald mcdonald: antichrist?
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Ronald does have issues since his best friends are a thief, a purple blob, a canary/emu crossbreed, and a bunch of talking McNuggets.
I would be more worried about the evil magic influence of Barney, Dora the Explorer, and everything Disney. ;)
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It didn't start til at least 200 A.D or so, probably later.
It started right after the destruction of the temple (70ADish) when the Pharisees decided that the Christians could no longer be considered Jewish.
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Ronald does have issues since his best friends are a thief, a purple blob, a canary/emu crossbreed, and a bunch of talking McNuggets.
I would be more worried about the evil magic influence of Barney, Dora the Explorer, and everything Disney. ;)
...you mean your mcnuggets dont talk to you too? :(
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...you mean your mcnuggets dont talk to you too? :(
I don't give them the opportunity. ;)
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...you mean your mcnuggets dont talk to you too? :(
I don't give them the opportunity. ;)
So ruthless... :o
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...you mean your mcnuggets dont talk to you too? :(
Sometimes mine talk back when I'm digesting them... ::)
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Just like food, everything that goes in the body, comes out of it, and some of what comes out stinks pretty badly.
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this reminds me of the new lost planet 2 demo that i played today. the first level has you fighting a gigantic dinosaur that sometimes slurps you up and you're forced to battle your way out...
...through the back end. he eventually poops you out, and you continue fighting him. epic. :)
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The level of Off-topic-ness of this thread might be unprecented... :P
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magicians -> magic -> ronald mcdonald, antichrist -> talking mcnuggets -> becoming monster dino poop.
yup, makes sense. :)
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Just like food, everything that goes in the body, comes out of it, and some of what comes out stinks pretty badly.
Way to bring back one of my favorite quotes (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12349.msg226963#msg226963) again :)
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Way to bring back one of my favorite quotes (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12349.msg226963#msg226963) again :)
That's where I found it. ;D
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Since Daniel was regent over the area the Magi came from, and the head of their order, it makes the most since to me that he would have just told them what to look for and when to look for it. The Magi who found Jesus would have been from the same sect, and quite probably already believers in YHWH.