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there is a difference between practicing sorcery and casting magic missiles on bugbears...and a piece of cardboard. 'nuff said.

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very good explanation, i just would like to point out a few things. mtg is no more roleplaying than a player in redemption is when he blocks with king of tyrus, prince of this world, red dragon, etc. do we truly believe we are satan or demons when we are using these evil characters to block rescue attempts?

A good point.  What I was trying to say that according to the Rulebook you were playing the part of a planeswalker.  I know many players don't even pay attention to this detail of the game(I know I didn't). However it is in the rulebook so at least on paper MTG has you play as a wizard.  Also to the point that Prof mentioned above there are certain inherent role play attributes of the game.

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i would venture to say playing with creatures in mtg is far more morally sound than playing with evil characters in redemption because mtg has a very strict policy against portraying anything blatantly satanic or even remotely related to the bible. the creatures in mtg are as much monsters as are frankenstein, dracula, werewolf, etc...purely figments of our imaginations. the closest line mtg walks is by having angels and demons in the game, but redemption has more than its fair share as well.

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i know many christians that play mtg, and it has not deterred them in their walk of faith, nor should they be condemned because of it. its a fantasy game with imaginary elements, bottom line.

  

very good explanation, i just would like to point out a few things. mtg is no more roleplaying than a player in redemption is when he blocks with king of tyrus, prince of this world, red dragon, etc. do we truly believe we are satan or demons when we are using these evil characters to block rescue attempts? no. it is a fundamental part of the game. just because we are playing a part of the game does not mean we actually are these characters. on the same line of thought, i would venture to say playing with creatures in mtg is far more morally sound than playing with evil characters in redemption because mtg has a very strict policy against portraying anything blatantly satanic or even remotely related to the bible. the creatures in mtg are as much monsters as are frankenstein, dracula, werewolf, etc...purely figments of our imaginations. the closest line mtg walks is by having angels and demons in the game, but redemption has more than its fair share as well. i know many christians that play mtg, and it has not deterred them in their walk of faith, nor should they be condemned because of it. its a fantasy game with imaginary elements, bottom line.

its amazing how people can attach witchcraft, sorcery, spirits to the game...yet provide no proof whatsoever. i also find it highly ironic redemption blatantly sports 58475893794% more satanic material than mtg...yet mtg is the satanic game.

"You are a planeswalker with an arsenal of sorcery at your command. You have laid eyes upon the Blind Eternities. In the vast Multiverse, only you and your kind know of the countless worlds beyond your own. Your gift drives you to seek out Magical knowledge, to test your limits, to forge your destiny. Your journey begins here." Quoted straight from the MTG website.  Is that proof enough?

For the record, I personally did not say that by playing MTG you are worshiping Satan, but I will say that you are definitely not glorifying God.  Redemption is based off of real spiritual warfare and thus any use of magic is because it's used in real life.  In games like MTG they take sorcery and magic quite lightly and treat it like it's just a game when it's not.  Sorcery is a very real thing and not something to take in passing.  Play if you wish, but it has no place here.  I can already see that just by this discussion, it is a stumbling block to the whole group because opinions are clearly divided.

Who here plays Call of Duty...we can really have a discussion then about pretend morality. 

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The Bible warns of sorcery and witchcraft and I can only suggest that those of you who do divulge in MTG be wary.

Playing a card game, which has witches and sorcery in it, is in no way practicing witchcraft. Yes you REPRESENT a sorcerer who controls creatures to fight other sorcerers, but in real life that is in no way of practicing witchcraft or anything really remotely close.

Did I say you had to be practicing sorcery and witchcraft? No, I was merely warning that MTG deals with sorcery and witchcraft and thus, you should exercise caution.  With roots in sorcery, often times games have you use a spell that is based off of actual spells, and this MAY breed spiritual activity.  You don't have to practice evil acts in order to participate in evil acts.  It is quite common for non-Christians playing MTG to use vulgar language and give in to outbursts of anger.  Would you disagree that some of these acts of anger are not caused by unholy spirits?  You say that representing a sorcerer is not practicing witchcraft, but yet in reality you are basically admitting that sorcery is ok.  It gives me the impression that you are somewhat compromising your beliefs and contradicting yourself.  I'm not here to judge because as I've said, there are many things that I do that do not Glorify God and I have no excuse for any of them.  What you do concerning your faith and beliefs is up to you, but I'm just telling you, don't take these things lightly because it's not a joke.

I guess Harry Potter is ok in your books then?  It sure isn't in mine, but I know SEVERAL Christians who see it as ok.

IMO, portraying magic as a good thing is not something that Christians should endorse, but it's okay to read Harry Potter as long as you fully recognize that magic in real life as we think of it today is founded upon demonic practices.

Perhaps I should make a quick clarification, based on a few points:
"satan's forces" = fallen angels, i.e. demons.
Yeah, I played MTG, and I was pretty good with it.  Any game where you use demons to destroy your opponent's life opens the door to something that is not holy.  Paul says to fill our minds with "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy".  Can a Christian play MTG and still be saved?  Absolutely.  However, there is a spirit behind that game, and it gives a foothold to the enemy that I don't want in my life.
Personally, I don't play most games that involve magic.  This includes DnD, Shadowrun, LotR, and MTG.  This is a choice that everyone must make for themselves.
Remember that the Bible says that satan is a liar and deceiver.  I'm sure most, if not all, of you have heard a variation of the following from your youth pastor:
Satan: Oh, it's only a little touching
it's only a little kissing, there's nothing wrong with that.
And so on and so forth, until the couple in question aren't virgins.
So you can see why the hairs on the back of my neck stand up a bit when you say "You only REPRESENT a sorcerer." or "It's only a card game".  No, I'm not saying you'll lose your virginity if you play MTG.  The opposite will most likely happen, but we won't get into that.  However, I see a need to be more aware than throwing an excuse at it.

Redemption has the forces of evil as well.  But it's an accurate representation of the real spiritual world.  Anytime we go out to witness and win lost souls to Christ, the forces of evil resist us.  In MTG, the point is to reduce someone else's life to zero.  Call it points if you like.  I can think of many euphemisms that make stuff seem ok.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12:There shall not be found among you any... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD.  No, MTG doesn't exactly do this stuff.  But does that make it ok?
Another personal decision of mine is to not kiss until I'm married.  A bit strict?  Yes.  But I do not want to be tempted to go further than I should, and I have set boundaries to make sure that doesn't happen.
We should not get as close to sin as possible, and then break off at the last moment.

One last thing: If they're "just cards", is Tarot ok?

It makes me sad that several Christian on this board, namely Master KChief, are so quick to defend a game that they play and argue with a fellow Christian that they compare Redemption to MTG.

Seriously?

You have the devil, several versions of him in fact, in Redemption. Guess what kiddies? He's evil. YOU represent a sorcerer in MTG, and YOU summon spells and creatures to fight at YOUR side; YOU ARE THE EVIL ONE in MTG. Er... I apologize, you REPRESENT the evil person in MTG. I mean, we can all agree spell caster are demonic, right? So therefore you are representing a demonic figure by playing the game. You can say that "it's all a game" all you want and make other random excuses, but seriously, you're representing a spell caster. That doesn't sound like something God would want his children taking part in.

That doesn't sound like something God would want his children taking part in.

Can we just be clear that it IS something God doesn't want us to do? Instead of it SOUNDS like it?

You can play MTG in a way that is positive as well...outside of killing your opponent. How about playing a white deck that is based around angels and protection/life gain. Having said that, I played MTG in my distant past and have recently put together a few decks to play with established MTG players at our local card store. I find that this common ground gives me a platform from which to speak. Should all do this, of course not, because all were not called to reach out in such hostile territory. I think that the "all things are permissible yet all things are not beneficial" theology can be applied to this thread quite easily. Players are being exposed to Redemption through these efforts since I of course invite MTG players to play my favorite game once we have played their favorite game...

It's funny you should mention that because it gives me the idea that you could play CoD by running around with a riot shield, smoke/stun grenades or flashbangs lol...

 It doesn't matter what color the deck is or who you choose to fight in battle with you, it is still implied that you are represented as a sorcerer and your angels are attacking another sorcerer (Played by a real human being).  There is a difference between associating with those that aren't saved and participating with those that are unsaved.  Look at Jesus, he hung out with Samaritans, tax collectors, the poor, lepers, thieves, etc yet He did not participate in their activities.  Instead, He ate dinner with them, spoke with them, and He loved them, but He didn't do what they did.

Good point...so I should not play a game with them...hmmm...
I am sure that I am not even pretending to be a sorcerer but simply playing cards...
With that same standard, are we not playing "God" when we play Redemption...
I will have to pray further on this one cause doors have been flying open at the card store...
Isn't it what comes out of a man that defiles him rather than what goes in...
Can my heart be right with God in the midst of playing a game like this...
Doesn't God see my heart rather than the outward...
What about Paul's example of using the altar to the unknown God to point to Jesus...
Didn't he participate in the discussions on Mars Hill where philosophy was god...
Are we doing what Pharisees/Sadducees did here by making this call...
Did I mention we have Tuesday night Redemption at that same card store now...

(sorry for thinking out loud like this, it just helps me to get it all out of my head)

Actually I never said MTG is an innocent card game. Why else would I be playing it but to get guys who are immersed in that culture out of it. I guess if you didn't catch my biblical inferences so I can make a more blatant one. I am in MTG but not of MTG...get it? We have to be willing to get dirty and go where people, who are away from God, gather. I actually sold a bulk of my MTG cards and used the money to further the Redemption ministry at the store. I think that your reluctance to tell people how to live their lives is good since they have to work out their own faith in fear and trembling.

Find whatever excuse in your mind that makes it feel alright to you to play MTG, but as I have repeatedly pointed out, not one piece of MTG glorifies God. 

That's a dangerous path to go down.  I can argue that in the simple game of battleship, not one piece glorifies God.  In fact, you are trying to "destroy" your opponent.  Does that make it evil?

I would argue that the part of Redemption that TRULY glorifies God is the fellowship, the joy, the laughter, using God's talents and analytical skills and our minds to the best of our ability, and the peace that comes from doing something we enjoy/are good at as a break from work.  The fact that Redemption teaches that we should seek to "save lost souls" and that the Bible is truly God's Word is a bonus.  I'm not saying that they are less important, I'm saying that they can't be compared.  Redemption has a quality about it that ALL sports, card games, board games, etc. have that glorify God, and Redemption (in this area) is equal to, say, volleyball.  I love volleyball, I have a passion for the game, and I when I play, I'm not thinking about "rescuing lost souls" or that God's Word is true.  I'm just enjoying the talents that God has given me, and through my interactions with my friends/family when I play, I bless them and am blessed in return.  That is God's gift to us.  

Please don't try to take too much of this, but I seriously wonder if the same can exist in a MTG game.  Actually, I believe it can.  Just like anything else, MTG could be used for evil, but ANYTHING can be evil if it becomes a god in your life.  TV is an easy example.  I don't believe a TV is inherently evil, but they can sure come between us and God.  Does that mean we should all throw out our TVs?  No.

I think this thread needs a serious dose of Romans 14.  Ever since I read that chapter and listened to what God laid on my heart, I have been able to be at peace with so many things...  Not that I accept or condone them, but that I can trust that it is up to God to judge other Christians' hearts, not me, and it is not necessary for my faith in Christ that everyone believe the same things I do.

Hey Red, I feel sorry for you that this thread turned into something it shouldn't of. I'm aware that your intentions were for this not to happen. If anything the enemy had placed some offense into the heart of others to draw division & strife amongst the body of believers here.

Here is something I'd like to see some input with. I see Red's first attempt of this thread as a counter culture effect towards the unsaved. An event that was supposed to be a light & a witness to those that don't know God and what "Redemption" really is. Not just the game but what it truely means to be saved.

With my experience I've been regularly playing in a secular hobby shop (yes with MTG players all around) with hopes to witness to them. As well as some type of evangelical effort to draw them into Christianity.

I noticed 1 guy using MTG had some bit of success, but I'm not open to playing MTG. I already overcame that and don't want another hurdle in my Walk with Christ.

But God has put some things in my heart towards the unsaved there. I do care for them and I have a burden to pray for many of them because I don't want to see them perish. Such as God put in my heart that I'm not getting to know them enough, I'm not loving on them enough, I'm not praying for them enough. Love covers a mulititude of sins. Jesus loved sinners but He hated the sin. He is also the answer for sin but 1 thing is for sure He didn't let them influence Him, He influenced them.

How can we influence the unsaved more. What can we do?

Example I've done, I've invited them to play redemption. Some have and some haven't.
I've handed out Redemption tracts.
I've played some non-occultic video games with them (so I could get to know them)
Offered to buy them food & drinks.
Shared the gospel with them.

We need to represent Christ to them and not draw them away from Christianity. We should look into ways how to get into their hearts & families and demonstrate the Love of Christ has not only for us... but for them also.

With that said, what have you've been doing? What could we do?

Spot on, drew.  If someone holding a different opinion than you has caused you this much offense, than I think you need to take a closer look at why that happened.
This thread was started for two reasons:
1.) Evangelism
2.) An excuse to play Redemption

Actually I wasn't offended. I just don't want to see this thread continue as an arguement. We're commanded not to argue.

Also, I've kept my previous post in the same context of the message.

What can we do to reach the unsaved. Even simply playing redemption evangelizing because of the contents of the game. It's happened to my playgroup dozens of times where people have asked us what we're playing and what's it about.