Author Topic: can definitely see why  (Read 9965 times)

Offline Master Q

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2017, 02:58:00 PM »
+6
Sooner or later most people who want to play this game at the highest level will run into this problem. The game's progressed a long way in providing consistent rulings, but there's definitely things that could be simplified. I consider myself proficient and trust myself to make rulings, but I don't really look at the REG so the complex questions I leave to those that do, and if they make mistakes,  then oh well. I would too. :P
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2017, 03:31:16 PM »
+4
These things have mostly been said already but this is my opinion as someone who has played the game on and off for 9 years and introduced the game to several people at different points during that time. The game has continuously and dramatically improved in almost every aspect for the entire time I have played it. The card design especially; I greatly prefer the general power level most cards are at now that they were when I started. The power creep the game has experienced has been for the good of the game overall. .That said I feel like this is a good point to stop the creep and that seems to be the plan since CoW and RoJ have pretty comparable power levels and I expect next years set will follow suit.

As for the original topic of the thread, I have never personally interacted with a player or prospective player who quit or didn't get into the game because of it being too complicated or having too many interactions to learn. One of my more recent additions to the Redemption playerbase is my cousin. He has a pretty short attention span and mostly plays high action, low strategy games. He is precisely the kind of person who would potentially give up learning Redemption because it's too much information to learn but he's been consistently learning and progressing over the past year and is even coming with me to Nats this time.

The only "problem" with Redemption is not that anything is getting worse, just that some things are getting better slower than others. The card pool and the REG are significantly better than they ever have been, but the number of new interactions is increasing faster than the definitions for those interactions. This isn't really an actual problem, merely a symptom of progress.

kariusvega

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2017, 04:32:08 PM »
+1
i agree that more elders to determine these things would be good too. seems that many of the older elders have moved on. i think it puts too much weight on too few shoulders. this is why i have offered my assistance in the past and plan to continue to

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2017, 05:35:11 PM »
0
Going directly against a ruling because you don't like it or don't agree with it falls into the camp of cheating. Taking free mulligans at a tournament and justifying it by saying that there isn't anything written that disallows it falls into the camp of cheating. If someone did those things I'd be inclined to think they are a cheater.

Wow. Was this person disqualified, banned, or anything? I'm just curious what type of punishment is appropriate in these circumstances. I have had people cheat at my tournaments in the past and never really knew what the best course of action should have been.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2017, 05:41:50 PM »
0
I wasn't there but from the accounts I heard from 3 people it doesn't sound to me like the host/judge handled it appropriately.

If it happened at a tournament I'm hosting the player would receive a match loss (and warning) or be completely disqualified from the event depending on how flagrant it appeared to be.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2017, 06:22:13 PM »
0
I wasn't there but from the accounts I heard from 3 people it doesn't sound to me like the host/judge handled it appropriately.

I guess that's why I was asking. I'm not sure I handled my situation the best way either. It's something that we're not really trained on when we chose to become a host. It seems a bit negative to dedicate a thread to discipline procedures, but I know I would have benefited from having something in writing.  :-\

If it happened at a tournament I'm hosting the player would receive a match loss (and warning) or be completely disqualified from the event depending on how flagrant it appeared to be.

Thank you for putting this out there, so hosts can have an idea of what experienced hosts would do.  :)
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2017, 09:17:28 PM »
0
I assume it was written because of the above mentioned incident, but Rob put up a sticky in ruling questions officially stating there aren't mulligans and the punishment for trying to do one is a 0-5 loss so it is documented now.

Offline Red Wing

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2017, 09:20:30 PM »
0
There's also some guidelines on how to handle these kinds of issues in the tournament guide.
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Offline bluefrog1288

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2017, 08:28:27 AM »
+2
Thanks for giving me something to read while my morning java cooled.  :laugh:

I quit back around Priests because I joined the military and didn't have time.  I came back now because I love games, and I found the love of life who also happens to love games.  When I mentioned a Christian card game I used to play to her she was like, "There is a Christian card game like Magic???" [I was speaking of the TCG aspect of the game ;)]  Now she loves it! 

Is there an argument for poor marketing of Redemption?  I believe so.

Anywho,  I consider myself a "Silver Era" Redemption player starting the game at the release of Kings.  (Maybe Warriors era is the golden age, and pre Warriors is something else...etc...) BUT, the newest sets I believe have ushered in a Platinum Age or something.  The strategies, combo, art, quality of the cards are phenomenal  My biggest draw to the game is that one of my hobbies surrounds me with scripture the entire time  I am playing it or around it.  I am very thankful for that particular feature.

It does take a LOT of time to be a top tier player, but isn't that the point?  Rewards and status for the most work and devotion. 
As far as rule complication you can ask Reyzen.  I got SUPER frustrated one day when he was training me in the game, but once I understood the difference between Interrupt, Prevent, Protect, and Negate it was smooth sailing. Still some waves now and then but you get it.

Offline Sean

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2017, 02:35:51 AM »
0
For what its worth, I left Redemption because of my own theological issues with it.  It had nothing to do with complexity or inconsistency.  On the whole I think there are many positive outcomes that result from Redemption.  The main one is fellowship, which is evidenced by the fact that I am posting now even though I stopped playing over 6 years ago.

Redemption as a game actually functions very well because the base system is simple enough to be picked up easily while the many different cards and abilities give it a deep strategy pool from which to draw.  This pulls in new players easily and keeps old players interested.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2017, 02:52:28 AM »
+1
Come back! They made a new falling away  :prayer:

Offline Sean

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2017, 03:08:11 AM »
-1
Come back! They made a new falling away  :prayer:
I didn't leave because of any one card.  I left because no Christian, in their right mind, would try to stop the spread of the Gospel (i.e. save a Lost Soul).  Therefore, half the cards I would never use nor do I think should be used.  Not using evil cards makes the game unbalanced and also introduces the temptation to use good cards in order to make sure I get to 5 before someone else when the reality is I should be encouraging everyone to get to 5 as quickly as possible.  I could make a deck that could do just that, but the result would be unhappy play partners because it would skew the results.  How would you feel if at a tournament I showed up with my "Oprah: Everybody gets a Redeemed Soul" deck and you end up losing because you didn't play me?
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TheHobbit13

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2017, 03:43:09 AM »
0
Haha I wouldn't care, you can use what ever deck you want.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2017, 09:25:34 AM »
0
So you're another, harder RLK, big deal. You could play a deck that attempts to tie both players at five (which is possible) and that would still be an outcome your opponent want to prevent at a tournament.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2017, 09:39:54 AM »
0
How is that possible?
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2017, 09:50:05 AM »
0
How is that possible?

Tap the two liner swap it to your opponents land of bondage son of God it when you're both at four
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2017, 10:29:38 AM »
+2
Quote
I didn't leave because of any one card.  I left because no Christian, in their right mind, would try to stop the spread of the Gospel (i.e. save a Lost Soul).

I can understand and respect that, and I even agree to some extent. However, I also understand that in the end, the good side is the only side that can win in Redemption. Even in a game that ends 1-0, Jesus himself talks about the lengths He will go to in order to save one lost sheep.

If Redemption were to ever introduce a way for evil to win, then I'd probably leave too, but I can assure you that the current playtest team* has no inclination to do anything like that.  8)



*And yes that includes John, who won Nationals with a "defense heavy" deck.  ::)
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kariusvega

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2017, 10:39:08 AM »
+1
I am positive once this game is made for mobile and all of the logic constraints and barriers are taken away hundreds of thousands of people will get it to play it constantly

Offline Zerutul

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2017, 11:09:30 AM »
+1
Here's why the game is confusing. It's not because the game mechanics are hard to pick up on. It's because when you go to actually play the game there are nit picky rules that are not clearly stated which become game changing. I agree, Redemption is fairly confusing for trying to be a simple TCG.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2017, 07:23:27 PM »
+4
I am positive once this game is made for mobile and all of the logic constraints and barriers are taken away hundreds of thousands of people will get it to play it constantly

This is going to sound unnecessarily harsh but it's delusional to think Redemption can be made into a successful mobile game. Both the mobile game market and card game market are ridiculously saturated and even if all the current confusing interactions were streamlined, perfectly defined, and programmed, it's not simple enough to have the widespread appeal required to be a successful online CCG. The only ways for an online CCG to even have a chance at success is to be extremely intuitive to the point that someone can watch a single game and understand whats going on without being taught anything (Hearthstone) or have an enormous user base in place before the online version is created (MtG). Even in the case of MtG, with its gigantic player base, (and the demand and funding that goes along with that player base) it has had many troubles and several failed attempts to recreate the game in a practical way as an online program.

All things are possible with God but it would be a straight up miracle for Redemption to ever have an actual online presence beyond table simulators like Lackey.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2017, 07:46:32 PM »
+3
+1 (for the most part)

Redemption as we know it now was simply not designed to be a mobile game. That being said, a mobile version is certainly possible, but it would need to be a "Redemption-lite" sort of game (perhaps along the lines of Type Half but with a more limited card base). I'm not sure what direction the mobile app is heading, but I look forward to seeing what those guys come up with.
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kariusvega

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2017, 08:13:11 PM »
+1
I am positive once this game is made for mobile and all of the logic constraints and barriers are taken away hundreds of thousands of people will get it to play it constantly

This is going to sound unnecessarily harsh but it's delusional to think Redemption can be made into a successful mobile game.

i disagree at minimum it could serve as a teaching tutorial with i/j starter decks

TheHobbit13

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2017, 08:16:19 PM »
0
Like a Victory at Hebron type thing. That would be really cool

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2017, 07:11:25 PM »
0
Keep dreaming big and don't let the naysayers say nay! If the Lord tarries there is so much room for Redemption to become so much bigger and spread joy to the lives of countless people like it has us.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

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Re: can definitely see why
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2017, 07:25:34 PM »
0
Keep dreaming big and don't let the naysayers say nay! If the Lord tarries there is so much room for Redemption to become so much bigger and spread joy to the lives of countless people like it has us.

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