Author Topic: Brigade Icons? (Read 13698 times)

Redoubter · « **Reply #25 on:** June 13, 2015, 11:23:03 PM »

Quote from: Jesusman on June 13, 2015, 10:24:54 PM

It's called humor ... maybe with a little sarcasm mixed in ... hence why I added the little silly face emote next to it, so people wouldn't take that specific comment seriously.

On a side note,

It is my experience that what makes sense is usually the last thing considered or done.

You can't say it was a joke but a serious comment in the same breath...and then, you post once again that you seem to think that what makes sense isn't considered. So I'm puzzled as to why I would take it any other way, and that's what I pointed out in my previous post. Just because someone disagrees with an approach taken in this game, we see accusations like this get thrown around where they don't belong (like here).

Quote from: Sadness on June 13, 2015, 10:53:38 PM

The thing about cheating...is you better have definite proof that your opponent is cheating. And it's probably best to let a mod or tournament host handle that after he or she has been informed. The other reason for marking card sleeves might be a eye problem. ..poor eyesight, old age, bifocals, color blindness or a new player not knowing any better(generally a young kid).

I don't see there being a matter of cheating intentionally here, so long as just the fronts are marked (and just with marker or something). Since my old way of doing this is dead (with the larger cards in the new print), let me share a product I started using instead, to go with what you said earlier, that may help some players:

Get some Ultra Pro Sleeve Covers, which can be slipped over a standard sized sleeve (do it in the opposite direction of the initial card insertion, and you have the bonus of protecting the card from any grime or dirt

). That way, you can mark up the sleeve (if you use cheap ones) or the protector itself (if you want to preserve more expensive sleeves like those with art on the backs). I've used them myself and they are very easy to slip on-and-off of the sleeved cards, so you don't have to worry about them getting stuck or anything. Just note that they are very slippery when you first start using them, so it may take a game or two for them to stop sliding around

Daniel · « **Reply #26 on:** June 13, 2015, 11:46:18 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 13, 2015, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: Jesusman on June 13, 2015, 10:24:54 PM
It's called humor ... maybe with a little sarcasm mixed in ... hence why I added the little silly face emote next to it, so people wouldn't take that specific comment seriously.

On a side note,

It is my experience that what makes sense is usually the last thing considered or done.

You can't say it was a joke but a serious comment in the same breath...and then, you post once again that you seem to think that what makes sense isn't considered. So I'm puzzled as to why I would take it any other way, and that's what I pointed out in my previous post. Just because someone disagrees with an approach taken in this game, we see accusations like this get thrown around where they don't belong (like here).

Jesusman made no accusations...

Jesusman · « **Reply #27 on:** June 14, 2015, 12:13:13 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 13, 2015, 11:23:03 PM

You can't say it was a joke but a serious comment in the same breath...and then, you post once again that you seem to think that what makes sense isn't considered. So I'm puzzled as to why I would take it any other way, and that's what I pointed out in my previous post. Just because someone disagrees with an approach taken in this game, we see accusations like this get thrown around where they don't belong (like here).

Out of respect for your title of "Global Moderator", Redoubter, I am not going to post what I was originally intending to post. What I will say is that I am offended at how something originally said in a light hearted manner, and later clarified in a serious rebuttal, could be blown out of proportion and twisted around to mean what was not said, and this by an authority figure like yourself.

Jesusman

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #28 on:** June 14, 2015, 07:33:52 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 13, 2015, 11:23:03 PM

Just because someone disagrees with an approach taken in this game, we see accusations like this get thrown around where they don't belong (like here).

Unfortunately the only one making "accusations" in this thread has been you, both to Jesusman and Daniel. I tried to warn you about this is my PM, but you have chosen to ignore me thus far.

In regard to Daniel, he has been presenting his template and redesign plans for years, so his "rolling eyes" at a post about the time and work involved in a redesign was actually appropriately funny, even though it did not contribute to the conversation.

In regard to Jesusman, responding to a question about "Why don't we...," with an answer of "Because it makes sense," is kind of a national joke that I have heard used in just about every profession. Even if the original quote was coined by "rebels," nowadays it is just commonplace humor.

I tried to make a generic post just a few posts above this, but you chose to ignore that as well. As I have mentioned many times before, I respect all that you do here on this forum, and we need you and your expertise. However, in the immediate sense, you need to stop reading into people's comments looking for hints of anti-establishment. Message Boards are not just about facts and figures and rulings. Having a little fun is what makes this a community. In my school community, if someone tells a bad joke, I simply don't laugh. I don't scold them for creating an unhumorous environment.

We all need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and remember that even though we don't always agree (or laugh at the same types of humor), we still have One major thing in common. Let's cherish the fact that the friends we make in His name are friends that we'll have for eternity. Even though I am in no hurry to attend Nationals, I look forward to the first official Heavenly Redemption Tournament where I'll get to see all of you, all that are not on these boards, and all that have made their way to Heaven already.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 14, 2015, 08:29:50 AM »

YMT, this community is better because you are a part of it.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #30 on:** June 14, 2015, 03:49:31 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 14, 2015, 08:29:50 AM

YMT, this community is better because you are a part of it.

C'mon, dude, you're going to make me cry....

... which is so uncool for a guy my age... and weight...

Gabe · « **Reply #31 on:** June 14, 2015, 07:33:19 PM »

Thanks to those that attempted to keep this discussion peaceful.

Because it's not apparent here, I'd like to ensure everyone that there has been an exchange of private messages to help resolve what I believe to be a misunderstanding of words and intentions between participants in this discussion.

Carry on.

Redoubter · « **Reply #32 on:** June 15, 2015, 07:59:47 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 14, 2015, 07:33:19 PM

Because it's not apparent here, I'd like to ensure everyone that there has been an exchange of private messages to help resolve what I believe to be a misunderstanding of words and intentions between participants in this discussion.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't post here, too. Only reason it was delayed was due to an illness that knocked me out yesterday, didn't want to post on cold meds.

I misread Jesusman's post due to my personal presumptions and triggers that others know on this board. There are people who have occasionally made comments that the leadership make nonsensical decisions, but he was not doing that, and that was my mistake, along with how I approached it even if he had been saying that (which he wasn't). I don't really have an excuse for it.

So while I've already apologized to him via PM, I need to put out here that what I assumed was wrong and what I said was wrong. I had said in a PM that Gabe could slice-and-dice my posts if he saw fit, but I won't edit them myself.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #33 on:** June 15, 2015, 08:33:22 AM »

If we go back to every post that Redoubter has ever made, and keep count of every time that he has been right and every time that he has not been right, by my calculations there is still a less than zero percent¹ chance that he will not be right.

Trust me... I'm a Math Teacher.

¹Special thanks go to MKC for coining this phrase.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #34 on:** June 15, 2015, 10:05:52 AM »

Now that I think about it, I wonder if it would be possible to put a brigade letter in the middle of the cross/bible/pyramid icon. It would have to be the appropriate contrast to the icon, but I think there might be a pretty decent way to accomplish it. The Dragon/skull icons may be a bit more difficult, and we would also have to account for Gold/Green, Gold/Gray, and Black/Brown (probably with a 2-letter abbreviation such as Br/Bl/Gr/Go)

So maybe it would have to be something like this:

Blue = B
Clay = C
Gold = Go
Green = Gr
Purple = P
Red = R
Silver = S
Teal = T
White = W

Black = Bl
Brown = Br
Crimson = C
Gold = Go
Gray = Gr
Orange = O
Pale Green = P

If anyone (Daniel...

) could come up with a way to incorporate those in the icons (or a better idea, I'm just trying to think of ways to incorporate the ideas without a complete layout overhaul) I can assure my support for sets going forward. Again, I can't make any promises, but as I've said, I really like the idea and would support its implementation.

browarod · « **Reply #35 on:** June 15, 2015, 11:19:08 AM »

Created a couple test images just to showcase what both a Letter as well as a Full Word could look like in the icon box for a mono-brigade and a dual-brigade card. The font color/size/etc could easily be changed and a shadow added if needed to make it stand out more (though I think the white against the brown of the cross icon is readable without being glaring).

Writing out the full words would get cluttered for multi-brigade cards (like Scattered) and for longer brigade names (like Pale Green).

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #36 on:** June 15, 2015, 11:25:44 AM »

So then, all pale green cards are rated PG.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #37 on:** June 15, 2015, 11:26:44 AM »

Quote from: browarod on June 15, 2015, 11:19:08 AM

Writing out the full words would get cluttered for multi-brigade cards (like Scattered) and for longer brigade names (like Pale Green).

I agree. Even just doing "Silver/Purple" would be tight. I think the letter abbreviations are better, but we would need to include a key inside booster wrapping (like the Taunt identifier explanation was) or with insert cards (everyone's all-time favorite

).

Quote from: Minion of Jesus on June 15, 2015, 11:25:44 AM

So then, all pale green cards are rated PG.

Que is clearly not appropriate for younger viewers.

Gabe · « **Reply #38 on:** June 15, 2015, 11:35:51 AM »

I appreciate the sentiment of this idea, and I'm all for making the game accessible to more players. How big of a hinderance is color blindness to playing Redemption? I'm no expert on the subject. The people I know can see some colors, but have problems with specific ones. For example, green and brown may look the same.

Changing the card design, even just to incorporate a color icon or word, doesn't seem like a great solution. We already have 20 years worth of cards printed that don't have these indicators. Even if we start doing it next year (it's too late to do it for this year's release), in 20 more years we will only have the indicator on approximately 50% of the cards in print (likely less since sets have gotten smaller in recent years). That really doesn't solve the problem for those that are color blind.

Allowing a player to mark the card face or sleeve front to indicate color seems like the best solution for a player to know their own deck. When it comes to deck building, there are tools available to help a player distinguish which brigade is on their card. But none of this helps them distinguish the brigade on an opponent's card. Apart from asking the opponent (and really, who isn't going to be honest about this?) I'm not sure there's a good answer.

If Redemption were ever to do a reboot I totally support using brigade specific icons, or including the color name in the identifier. I just don't think it will have the desired impact if we do it this far into the life of the game.

Daniel · « **Reply #39 on:** June 15, 2015, 11:47:13 AM »

Now that I see the implementation of the brigade abbreviation, it looks pretty invasive and distracting (and confusing to players who wouldn't know what the letters stand for). How about this:

The name of the brigade is written on the card border, and when held in the hand and tipped downwards reads easily, as well as being non-invasive.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #40 on:** June 15, 2015, 11:49:59 AM »

Like that idea, Daniel. What I like more, however, is that art. So cool...

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #41 on:** June 15, 2015, 12:07:35 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 15, 2015, 11:35:51 AM

Changing the card design, even just to incorporate a color icon or word, doesn't seem like a great solution. We already have 20 years worth of cards printed that don't have these indicators.

What if sheets of brigade stickers were were created that could could be applied (as Daniel shows in Red card) by players? Cactus produces the stickers, sells them for a nominal fee, and requires that tournament legal decks have these designators attached (either on the card or the sleeve).

Soundman2 · « **Reply #42 on:** June 16, 2015, 12:46:42 AM »

Quote from: Daniel on June 15, 2015, 11:47:13 AM

Now that I see the implementation of the brigade abbreviation, it looks pretty invasive and distracting (and confusing to players who wouldn't know what the letters stand for). How about this:

The name of the brigade is written on the card border, and when held in the hand and tipped downwards reads easily, as well as being non-invasive.

This is a better idea than I had.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** June 18, 2015, 12:02:04 PM »

Quote from: Daniel on June 15, 2015, 11:47:13 AM

Now that I see the implementation of the brigade abbreviation, it looks pretty invasive and distracting (and confusing to players who wouldn't know what the letters stand for). How about this:

The name of the brigade is written on the card border, and when held in the hand and tipped downwards reads easily, as well as being non-invasive.

This would potentially clash with warrior/weapon/tclass icons.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #44 on:** June 18, 2015, 03:26:55 PM »

Wow . . . I didn't expect to get so much feedback. Thank you so much for all the ideas input!

Praeceps · « **Reply #45 on:** June 19, 2015, 07:27:16 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 15, 2015, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Gabe on June 15, 2015, 11:35:51 AM
Changing the card design, even just to incorporate a color icon or word, doesn't seem like a great solution. We already have 20 years worth of cards printed that don't have these indicators.
What if sheets of brigade stickers were were created that could could be applied (as Daniel shows in Red card) by players? Cactus produces the stickers, sells them for a nominal fee, and requires that tournament legal decks have these designators attached (either on the card or the sleeve).

Or you could just require all tournament decks to have some indicator on each card/sleeve. I'm not sure enough players would be willing to have to buy sheets of these indicators to cover the cost of printing them, but if you could choose how you marked them, as long as they were marked in a visible and understandable way, then I'd see no problems with this idea.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #46 on:** June 19, 2015, 10:15:15 PM »

I feel that honestly, it's too late into the game to make any changes to correct this. You can't reprint 2,000+ cards, you can't force your opponent to mark their cards, the most you could really do is just do something to identify your own cards.

Soundman2 · « **Reply #47 on:** June 20, 2015, 12:08:16 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 19, 2015, 10:15:15 PM

I feel that honestly, it's too late into the game to make any changes to correct this. You can't reprint 2,000+ cards, you can't force your opponent to mark their cards, the most you could really do is just do something to identify your own cards.

You don't have to reprint all 2,000+. Just the ones that are used the most often

Drrek · « **Reply #48 on:** June 20, 2015, 03:44:01 AM »

Quote from: Soundman2 on June 20, 2015, 12:08:16 AM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 19, 2015, 10:15:15 PM
I feel that honestly, it's too late into the game to make any changes to correct this. You can't reprint 2,000+ cards, you can't force your opponent to mark their cards, the most you could really do is just do something to identify your own cards.

You don't have to reprint all 2,000+. Just the ones that are used the most often

That's still pretty unfeasible at this point.

Redoubter · « **Reply #49 on:** June 20, 2015, 11:01:54 AM »

Quote from: Drrek on June 20, 2015, 03:44:01 AM

Quote from: Soundman2 on June 20, 2015, 12:08:16 AM
Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 19, 2015, 10:15:15 PM
I feel that honestly, it's too late into the game to make any changes to correct this. You can't reprint 2,000+ cards, you can't force your opponent to mark their cards, the most you could really do is just do something to identify your own cards.

You don't have to reprint all 2,000+. Just the ones that are used the most often

That's still pretty unfeasible at this point.

Agreed. That would make us have to make a distinction of what older cards are "usable" and what cards are not. It would require us to make the largest single set ever made, which also means no new cards. It would have us reprint existing versions of cards instead of giving them updates and a facelift. It would also make existing copies unusable (or the project is meaningless if old copies still get used), which we don't want regardless. Reprinting the existing cards is not an option.

As far as marking sleeves, I don't believe that Cactus should be mandating such a thing, as that more or less ruins sleeves in the long run, particularly when you switch decks. People who play with someone who needs the visual reminders could certainly adjust how they present their cards to be inclusive, but I'm not sure that Cactus has a way to force it feasibly across the board.

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Author Topic: Brigade Icons? (Read 13698 times)

Daniel

browarod

Daniel

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo