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Redemption® Resources and Thinktank / Re: Redemption Game Health Discussion and Solutions
« Last post by Sean on September 30, 2022, 10:31:01 PM »
Being able to reuse Dominants is always bad.
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Card Information / Help with a couple of promo ordering questions
« Last post by Crashfach2002 on September 30, 2022, 05:07:09 PM »
OK, question for you guys. I finally have time to go back through the promo release schedule. I believe I have most everything in the correct order and year now, but there are a handful of cards that Rob, Gabe and I didn't know the exact release order for. So please help if you know when you got these cards. Basically they were all sent to print together, so in what order did you get them?

We know Rapha (Seasonal), Laban (State) & Goliath (Regional) all came out in 2018. The question is did people get Rapha before, after or between their State & Regional tournaments?

We know the Bethlehem was the winter promo for the 2018-2019 season. Did anyone get it in December of 2018 or was it delayed until early 2019?

We know Prophets of Gibeath (Seasonal), Haman (State) & Emperor Nero (Regional) all came out in 2019. The question is did people get Rapha before, after or between their State & Regional tournaments?

We know Daniel's Prayer (Seasonal), Nehemiah (State) & Prince of Tyrus (Regional) all came out in 2020. The question is did people get Rapha before, after or between their State & Regional tournaments?

I appreciate any input you have!
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Good thoughts Master Q. Curious, as mentioned in an earlier post here: yesterday I was saying in one conversation that Numerous, Matthew, and Denarius should be banned and Star of Bethlehem should be errata'd to one use per game. I later adjusted to just feeling Numerous needs to be banned. I definitely do not think Denarius needs to be banned at this juncture any longer.

However, you are reminding me why I originally thought Matthew should be banned. Just the principle of the card is overpowered.

Truth be told if Numerous is banned Matthew becomes the primary speed engine. I am in agreement with you: both Numerous as the Stars and Matthew should be banned as soon as possible.

I also think Star of Bethlehem needs to be dealt with in that vein. In a world with Matthew and Numerous being gone I see many people trying to abuse Star of Bethlehem to draw 12 since along with The First Combo it becomes the premier speed engine in a world without Numerous and Matthew. The First Combo is fragile and comes at a cost sacrificing ability souls. Star of Bethlehem is very easy to recur through The Coming Prince and allows for a potential draw 10-12 with ease. Limiting Star of Bethlehem to one use per game will mean it is getting a draw 6 at best and some other star interactions which seems quite fair.

So I propose that Numerous and Matthew be banned and Star of Bethlehem be limited to one use per game.
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So I read most of this and I believe I agree with Jay. While a rule change that limits the cards you play in a turn would probably be healthy, and I personally would like this idea (this would go a long way to balance multiple cards in the game), it would also be yet another rule to remember, and I don't think we need more of those this late in the game.

As far as the problematic cards go, I can think of 2 - Numerous and Matthew. In lieu of rule changes, these I would ban asap for game health reasons.

I know I was always one of the biggest proponents for bans before they were a thing (https://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/the-problem-of-the-liner-(or-the-relevance-of-banning-cards)/) but I also don't want to go crazy with them. But I can see where it is needed. Numerous, which wasn't an issue on release, has become unmanageable as more sets have expanded its potential. Matthew I think should never have been printed with its ability: how that got out of playtesting completely astounds me. Any card that lets you plus as much as these are problems.

Pretty much every other card game has great limits on draw cards, and most other games have costs. Redemption does not. I should not have to worry about my opponent going +10 before I get a turn. Honestly, I shouldn't have to worry about them doing that with a single card at any point during the game. Any other game would not hesitate to cut cards like these out.
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     Over the years I also have seen a lot come and go. Rotation has been a good thing for Redemption. I wasn't originally onboard with it, but after several discussions as to what it actually entailed rather than the rampant assumptions of what it was going to be, I saw the wisdom in it. And remember, Rotation had been talked about for a good LOOOONNGGGG time prior to it happening.
     Fast forward to now. Several recent rule changes have been made for the health of Redemption, as well banning several more problematic cards. It is time to let these changes settle in and see what longer term effect they have. I agree with CtheTree, that Numerous as the Stars should be on the chopping block and I agree with RED that drastic rule changes should be a last resort. Banning, Errata and Silver Bullets should be looked at first, with extensive playtesting doing its' best to even head off using those.
     Over the years and various playgroups, I have taught Redemption to new, young players and new (TCG experienced players) and haven't run into the issues of it being too complex (for being a complex game). Basics, Basics, Basics is where I start and make the distinction between casual play and the whole 'nother animal of competitive play. I don't teach based on what I think they should know or learn, or what they should like or dislike between formats casual and competitive. I just show them and share with them the differences and let it grow from there.
      It is time to let what we have done (rule changes/banned cards and brand new set released) be put through the wringer of deck design and high-level competitive play to see if we are closer to where we want to be.

Godspeed,
Mike
     
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I think it’s clear we have seen a lot of good points from the pre discussion and the next step is preliminary unofficial testing of it.  Minds may change either way when we encounter it.

We may find it more tedious and unfun than expected or easier and more intuitive than expected. Good content and videos for the community will help others have a more informed opinion too.

 I’d love to spend some time testing it with someone in my rare free time lol.
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Very well said Red. I could not agree more. Thank you for sharing your thoughts from a background of balanced experience with teaching new players regularly and being a competitive player for years.
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Redemption® Resources and Thinktank / Re: Redemption Game Health Discussion and Solutions
« Last post by Red on September 30, 2022, 06:38:06 AM »
Since I've been mostly absent for these conversations, I'll put most of my thoughts on the forums, but what I will say here discord is 1) all of the opinions surrounding other games have not been contextualized to examine where Redemption is as far as development in contrast to other games which have full-time developers. 2) I have always been fundamentally opposed to drastic rule changes and will continue to be. Card pool problems must be solved through errata-bans-silver bullets.

More thoughts!

I am a long-time player, you guys are all my friends and I ask you to [1] listen to what I have to say, and [2] don't think it is exclusively coming from nostalgia and resistance to change. I frequently teach newer players and have been for the vast majority of my 17 years playing Redemption. I also have played at a high-level for ten years.

Within 2 years, it is almost as if the rules have been largely rewritten in this quest for balance and simplicity. I'm about to get whiplash if ability definitions keep changing. Nonetheless, I am ardently opposed to arbitrary solutions to problems and the main problem lies firmly in the card pool, namely the design of counter cards. The TC cards perpetuate an oppressive game state that is caused by characters having abilities that they have no business ever being designed with. Numerous as the Stars is an issue because it grabs 4-5 characters that can create an oppressive game state and set up a rescue as well. The Schaefer Solution does limit the oppressive game state, but it does so by increasing complexity through having players to keep track of gamestate in a non-intuitive way. In my humble opinion, one of the things I enjoy most about Redemption is the freedom to not have to track things through outside means. It's easy for me to just take 1 deck and go and play with my friends or playgroup members, the Schaefer Solution requires some means of round tracking and that's an increase to complexity.

I also think we are jumping both feet forward in a world where none of us have playtested (In the tournament preparation sense) the majority of GOC Phase 2 and seen what the implications of 3 new and fully loaded defenses are. I think we desperately need to evaluate the current metagame with more tournament experience than just thinking the deck that Earley posted in Zerubbabel's Temple is the end-all-be-all. There has been a strong herd-mentality when it comes to the sizes of defenses and the viability of certain decks/themes. Let's explore what has been released for a month longer before we start decreeing that the sky is fallen and everything is broken.

Lastly, I think a number of people disagree as to what a balanced CCG looks like. I think a fruitful continuation of this thread would be a discussion where we each post our own opinion on a "balanced" CCG and see where that takes us.
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Redemption® Resources and Thinktank / Re: Redemption Game Health Discussion and Solutions
« Last post by Sean on September 30, 2022, 05:42:28 AM »
I'll give it a skim soon though. Ultimately, I much prefer these boards to the discord any day. Far cleaner and more organized in general. Catchy title though.  ;)
I don't enjoy discord much at all as a platform but I get why most are drawn to it. Especially for a discussion like this one though, this message board is way better in my opinion. Things get lost very easily on discord, even if they are pinned. having to scroll up and down in that thing is something I rarely do. But with this discussion I went and looked on discord and there is a lot more being said there than here.
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Redemption® Market / Re: Q Branch
« Last post by Master Q on September 30, 2022, 01:39:49 AM »
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