Author Topic: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams  (Read 12996 times)

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2014, 11:42:22 PM »
0
I feel like Lackey might support multi player, but don't quote me on that.
Lackey natively supports multiplayer (and booster and sealed and TEAMs).

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Penalizing them further on the basis of theory-crafting about the results of a separate rule change is just unwarranted.
MJB, I'm not suggesting that huge decks are the best thing in the category right now, but the main thing that holds them back in Teams is the time needed to set up in games that don't have optimal draws.
As I pointed out previously, results from previous tournaments and prior play experience both provide actual evidence against your hypothesis.

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In talking to a few other people about it, including people with a wealth of experience in Teams, along with a couple of the Elders, I don't seem to be alone in this thinking.
It really doesn't matter what all these people think, if it is contradicted by actual evidence. If your concerns were warranted, you would expect to see more than huge deck placing at Nats in the five years that TEAMS has been an official category. Yet we do not. If your concerns were warranted you would expect to see a people regularly playing huge decks in T1 2P with its slightly slower set up pace. Yet we do not.

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Even if 154's aren't as dangerous as I think they would be in Teams, they're not particularly fun to play against to most people, and I wouldn't mind seeing them fundamentally neutered in at least one category.
Here we come to the real nub of it, as you made your disdain for large decks clear in your original blog post. We could all name decks we don't enjoy playing against--for me Genyptians would be nearer the top than most--but I'm not sure we want to start down the path of neutering decks simply because individuals players have a personal dislike of facing them.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2014, 11:51:21 PM »
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Even if 154's aren't as dangerous as I think they would be in Teams, they're not particularly fun to play against to most people, and I wouldn't mind seeing them fundamentally neutered in at least one category.
Here we come to the real nub of it, as you made your disdain for large decks clear in your original blog post. We could all name decks we don't enjoy playing against--for me Genyptians would be nearer the top than most--but I'm not sure we want to start down the path of neutering decks simply because individuals players have a personal dislike of facing them.

Playing two traditional 154s in Teams is unfun, completely.  And if they do not win, as you are pointing out, then why would you play them?  That's the question.

Your whole post undercuts the validity of running 154s in Teams as a viable strategy, so the real question is why you would want to play with it, and the answer I see is that it is funny to play decks that are annoying to others.  They go against the spirit of the game and are very bad for the game.  There was a team running it at Nats, and I am almost certain they did not have a game end at time, which I don't know how you can argue is good for the category.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2014, 11:58:39 PM »
+1
There was a team running it at Nats, and I am almost certain they did not have a game end at time, which I don't know how you can argue is good for the category.

Well this just got awkward...
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2014, 12:00:27 AM »
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Quote
Even if 154's aren't as dangerous as I think they would be in Teams, they're not particularly fun to play against to most people, and I wouldn't mind seeing them fundamentally neutered in at least one category.
Here we come to the real nub of it, as you made your disdain for large decks clear in your original blog post. We could all name decks we don't enjoy playing against--for me Genyptians would be nearer the top than most--but I'm not sure we want to start down the path of neutering decks simply because individuals players have a personal dislike of facing them.

Playing two traditional 154s in Teams is unfun, completely.  And if they do not win, as you are pointing out, then why would you play them?  That's the question.

Your whole post undercuts the validity of running 154s in Teams as a viable strategy, so the real question is why you would want to play with it, and the answer I see is that it is funny to play decks that are annoying to others.  They go against the spirit of the game and are very bad for the game.  There was a team running it at Nats, and I am almost certain they did not have a game end at time, which I don't know how you can argue is good for the category.

Easy big fella, easy . . . . (I guess I'm a lot bigger then You so I guess I'm the big fella)

Emjaybee was one of the 2 gentlemen running one of the 154 if I am not mistaken on my Board name memory. 

On an a side I feel like playing a 154 is trolling.  I don't mind being trolled if they troll is fun about it but when it seems like the troll is doing to be rude or ruin the category for others I'm not a fan. I personally am on the train of the "I don't like playing against 154 card decks" train but I also hate PBI.  Honestly though my feeling is if you wanna run more then 70 cards you should probably switch to T2, I honestly believe that person would enjoy play t2 more anyway.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2014, 12:05:50 AM »
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Personally I feel that 154s are fine in TEAMs. I'm not saying I necessarily like facing them, because they can present certain challenges that a normal sized deck cannot. They are a high-risk, high-reward play, and to me that's just fine. They add some variety and should continue to do so with the new cards.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2014, 12:10:25 AM »
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On an a side I feel like playing a 154 is trolling.

Craig and Matt are definitely not trolling anyone, and certainly not to be rude or ruin anything. They have a legit strategy that has had success in the past. I can say in all seriousness that I think I would have a really fun time playing with a deck like that.

I played against a 154 in the opening round of T1 2P in 2011, but it was the same thing. The person wasn't trolling, they just like the advantages of having a monster deck.

The only time I've ever seen anyone trolling to ruin a category was an individual (who shall remain nameless) that built a T2 MP deck that was designed for the sole purpose of drawing Lost Souls and then giving them away when he was attacked.

If you want an example of trolling, that's it.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 12:12:41 AM by The Guardian »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2014, 12:19:30 AM »
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There was a team running it at Nats, and I am almost certain they did not have a game end at time, which I don't know how you can argue is good for the category.

They timed out once. Jayden and I used balanced 56 card decks and we timed out 3 times (2 losses and a tie).

Are balanced 56 card decks bad for TEAMS?
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2014, 12:27:57 AM »
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The only time I've ever seen anyone trolling to ruin a category was an individual (who shall remain nameless) that built a T2 MP deck that was designed for the sole purpose of drawing Lost Souls and then giving them away when he was attacked.

If you want an example of trolling, that's it.

Was this the deck with Limited Poisons and Bucklers? Good times. :maul:
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2014, 12:32:28 AM »
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IIRC it used ET, Claudia, Reach, Great Faith and Book of Hozai to do nothing but draw. The rest of the cards were limited and unlimited non-special ability cards.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2014, 02:09:30 AM »
+1
Quote
Even if 154's aren't as dangerous as I think they would be in Teams, they're not particularly fun to play against to most people, and I wouldn't mind seeing them fundamentally neutered in at least one category.
Here we come to the real nub of it, as you made your disdain for large decks clear in your original blog post. We could all name decks we don't enjoy playing against--for me Genyptians would be nearer the top than most--but I'm not sure we want to start down the path of neutering decks simply because individuals players have a personal dislike of facing them.
Playing two traditional 154s in Teams is unfun, completely.  And if they do not win, as you are pointing out, then why would you play them?  That's the question.
I was a member of a team that played a pair of 154s at Nationals in 2012 and took third out of 24 teams. My teammate and I chose to play those decks with the hope of having fun and winning a tournament. Why do you make your choice of decks?

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There was a team running it at Nats, and I am almost certain they did not have a game end at time, which I don't know how you can argue is good for the category.
I am not sure who you are talking about here. As far as I know my partner and I were the only one playing 154s at the just concluded Nats, and we had five of six games end at time as you can verify by looking at the scoring spreadsheet. I am also fairly certain that we were never the last table to finish a round.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 02:13:19 AM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2014, 07:01:26 AM »
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I was a member of a team that played a pair of 154s at Nationals in 2012 and took third out of 24 teams. My teammate and I chose to play those decks with the hope of having fun and winning a tournament. Why do you make your choice of decks?

And yet, when we look back through this thread, you have been saying how they are not a problem because they are not viable in the category at this time, and showing how the data proves that.  Can't have it both ways.

I am not sure who you are talking about here. As far as I know my partner and I were the only one playing 154s at the just concluded Nats, and we had five of six games end at time as you can verify by looking at the scoring spreadsheet. I am also fairly certain that we were never the last table to finish a round.

Honestly, I handled other things while Teams finished, and did not pay attention to the time remaining just the tables left.  I would see your table there quite often among the last, hence my statements.  If you finished a majority of your rounds before 60 minutes were up, then that's great.  I don't see how 154s can do that consistently, at least those built in the traditional way where lockout is the goal.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2014, 10:42:00 AM »
+1
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And yet, when we look back through this thread, you have been saying how they are not a problem because they are not viable in the category at this time, and showing how the data proves that.  Can't have it both ways.

I think his point is that 154s are certainly viable, but obviously they haven't dominated the category.

I ask again...

They timed out once. Jayden and I used balanced 56 card decks and we timed out 3 times (2 losses and a tie).

Are balanced 56 card decks bad for TEAMS?
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2014, 12:29:45 PM »
+2
Hey,

The issue of timeouts in teams might be more a matter of the players than the decks.  John Earley pointed out while judging the category that teams that consisted of lead player and a follower tended to time out much less than teams that consisted of two players acting as equals.  And I would guess that the players with a propensity to time out in two player (regardless of deck size) also probably end up on teams that time out more frequently.

I think 154 card decks in Teams (and in Type 1 in general) are similar to combo decks in Type 2.  These decks are fun to design, add variety to the field, can win games, and are fun to play with.  But playing against them is a NPE for most people and they aren't consistent in their performance (which means they almost never win tournaments, but can eliminate top players if the deck draws right - which ends up being a pretty bum deal for the top player who did nothing wrong other than getting paired up with a 154).

I think Jordan's suggestion of eliminating tabletalk from teams would eliminate the timeout problem.  But I don't know that it's possible to define a set of rules for talking that the table that eliminates the tabletalk without significantly damaging the fun players get from playing with someone else.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2014, 12:47:52 PM »
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Hey,

The issue of timeouts in teams might be more a matter of the players than the decks.  John Earley pointed out while judging the category that teams that consisted of lead player and a follower tended to time out much less than teams that consisted of two players acting as equals.  And I would guess that the players with a propensity to time out in two player (regardless of deck size) also probably end up on teams that time out more frequently.

I think 154 card decks in Teams (and in Type 1 in general) are similar to combo decks in Type 2.  These decks are fun to design, add variety to the field, can win games, and are fun to play with.  But playing against them is a NPE for most people and they aren't consistent in their performance (which means they almost never win tournaments, but can eliminate top players if the deck draws right - which ends up being a pretty bum deal for the top player who did nothing wrong other than getting paired up with a 154).

I think Jordan's suggestion of eliminating tabletalk from teams would eliminate the timeout problem.  But I don't know that it's possible to define a set of rules for talking that the table that eliminates the tabletalk without significantly damaging the fun players get from playing with someone else.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Bingo Maly you hit this one on the head for me.  You stated my feelings exactly.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2014, 03:15:00 PM »
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FWIW, the most fun game I played in Teams was vs. Craig and Matt. I see playing against a 154 (or two) as a puzzle; it comes down to knowing how to play against them. I also enjoy playing with them, and seeing how they can be constructed to play a full game in time. I am relatively certain that if I had not been playing a deck that was mostly defense, Craig and Matt I would have had a good chance to beat Jonathan and I in time. The nicest thing about the game was that they knew how to play their decks, and they knew that they had to play quickly to try to finish, so they didn't dawdle over decisions like most teams I have played.

As for table talk, I think that discussing strategy after decisions are made should be allowed, but I have played way too many games where minutes go by while a team is making a decision. The ridiculous codes just exacerbate the issue. I agree there would be difficulty in delineating when table talk is okay and when it is not, and if a reasonable solution can't be achieved, then I will survive. I rarely play the category and only did so because Jonathan decided to come to Nats, but I figured my opinion was worth positing.

As for the inconsistency point that Tim brought up, I think the same could be said for any top player who faces an insanely good draw. If Team Must got the draw they did vs. us every round, I'm convinced they would have won the category undefeated with a +26 differential. If a top player gets a bum deal from running into a a pair of 154s, then the same top player could get the same bum deal from running into the buzz saw that we experienced in that 5-turn game (that's right, the game ended on the first player's second turn). It was that brutal.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2014, 04:37:40 PM »
+1
I don't think I've ever faced the Table Talk induced timeouts in Teams, I haven't played it very much so maybe that's why, I did almost face a timeout caused by a rules question, but that's a different matter entirely.

At nationals a few years ago when I did play Teams, we both knew what we were doing well enough to basically not need to discuss strategy besides "do you have a block?" or "Just block with anything, I'll take care of it." and the occasional coded dominant message.

I don't think we should remove the Table Talk aspect of Teams, that's part of what makes it Teams, you're supposed to help each other.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2014, 08:49:59 AM »
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I was a member of a team that played a pair of 154s at Nationals in 2012 and took third out of 24 teams. My teammate and I chose to play those decks with the hope of having fun and winning a tournament. Why do you make your choice of decks?

And yet, when we look back through this thread, you have been saying how they are not a problem because they are not viable in the category at this time, and showing how the data proves that.  Can't have it both ways.
To which I would say, please go back and re-read because I don't think anyone can read what I wrote and honestly come to the position you are trying to fob off as mine.

Quote
Honestly, I handled other things while Teams finished, and did not pay attention to the time remaining just the tables left.
So to support your argument you felt free to throw out an assertion without knowing whether it was true or not and without making any effort to verify it?

When you couple this with jbeers claim that anyone playing 154 decks would only do so to be a troll (despite the fact that similar decks placed highly at Nats in the past), and I hope everyone can understand why I am unimpressed with Chris' "I've talked to a lot of folks" arguments.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 08:55:09 AM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Suggested Rule Changes to Teams
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2014, 09:48:31 AM »
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Just to clarify I didn't mean come across as personal in any way.  I just ment to communicate what Maly said earlier I just didn't do it as eloquently. If I offended you or anyone with the word troll I'm sorry. In all honesty I haven't played enough teams to know if it's a problem in teams. I do struggle with it more in t1-2p due to the fact that it won't compete to win and realistically only has the ability to knockdown a top player who didn't do anything wrong.  This is more along the lines of trolling but perhaps that word is to strong here as well.
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