Author Topic: Black is weak  (Read 3016 times)

Offline Kor

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2018, 12:34:03 PM »
0


...otherwise Asahel shouldn’t work either.

Asahel doesn't work because he specifies "opponent's male human", unlike Ehud (RA) who simply says "from opponent's territory". I've only used gold Judges with Canaanites myself (because AUTO) and just assumed Asahel had the same wording as Ehud. My bad. Jael still works though.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2018, 01:01:05 PM »
+1
Judean Mediums banded to new KoT. An auto-block guarantee.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2018, 01:07:23 PM »
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Judean Mediums banded to new KoT. An auto-block guarantee.

Assuming they have no regardless of protection or Eternal Inheritance.

Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2018, 01:08:03 PM »
+1
Judean Mediums banded to new KoT. An auto-block guarantee.

Assuming they have no regardless of protection or Eternal Inheritance.

Or NT heroes...
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2018, 01:18:13 PM »
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"You may take a Canaanite from Reserve and give it to opponent's territory to draw 1."

The benefit (draw 1) only happens if the conditions before the to are met. Therefore, you must both A) Take a Canaanite from Reserve and B) give it to opponent's territory to C) draw 1. If you cannot fulfil either A or B, then C doesn't occur. That's what I would say, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong.

You have to give to draw, but you don't have to give. You can gain a Canaanite or the drawn card.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2018, 02:12:40 PM »
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Judean Mediums banded to new KoT. An auto-block guarantee.

Assuming they have no regardless of protection or Eternal Inheritance.

Or NT heroes...

True on NT heroes. Not worried about RoP (unless there are more cards in the new set that’re RoP for offense) and EI though.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2018, 02:47:42 PM »
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Unless I'm completely missing the point of this definition, if seems to me that it Foreign Sword would work on a character Given by King of Tyrus.

The portion of the REG you quoted isn't the key to determining if Foreign Sword works in this scenario. The following is found in the REG Glossary under Opponent.

Quote
Several cards in Redemption® refer to “opponent’s cards” (e.g., opponent’s Heroes). For a card to be considered an “opponent’s card”, that player must be the owner of the card as well as have control of the card. An “opponent’s” ability is an ability on an “opponent’s” card.

Yes, but I knew that. I was just showing that according to the rules (at least as I read them(, once a player has Permanent Control of a card, they are considered an owner.

Quote
Owner
When a reference is made to the owner of a card, it means the player from whose deck or Reserve the card originated

Combined with the definition I already said about Permanent Control treating the card as coming from Your Deck, that means that once you gain Permanent Control of a card you are treated as the owner, so Foreign Sword should work. Or did I misinterpret something?
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2018, 03:01:50 PM »
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"You may take a Canaanite from Reserve and give it to opponent's territory to draw 1."

The benefit (draw 1) only happens if the conditions before the to are met. Therefore, you must both A) Take a Canaanite from Reserve and B) give it to opponent's territory to C) draw 1. If you cannot fulfil either A or B, then C doesn't occur. That's what I would say, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong.

You have to give to draw, but you don't have to give. You can gain a Canaanite or the drawn card.

Indeed. I misread what was being said and we are in complete understanding after all.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2018, 03:27:25 PM »
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Unless I'm completely missing the point of this definition, if seems to me that it Foreign Sword would work on a character Given by King of Tyrus.

The portion of the REG you quoted isn't the key to determining if Foreign Sword works in this scenario. The following is found in the REG Glossary under Opponent.

Quote
Several cards in Redemption® refer to “opponent’s cards” (e.g., opponent’s Heroes). For a card to be considered an “opponent’s card”, that player must be the owner of the card as well as have control of the card. An “opponent’s” ability is an ability on an “opponent’s” card.

Yes, but I knew that. I was just showing that according to the rules (at least as I read them(, once a player has Permanent Control of a card, they are considered an owner.

Quote
Owner
When a reference is made to the owner of a card, it means the player from whose deck or Reserve the card originated

Combined with the definition I already said about Permanent Control treating the card as coming from Your Deck, that means that once you gain Permanent Control of a card you are treated as the owner, so Foreign Sword should work. Or did I misinterpret something?

You can't change ownership. Each of the 3 definitions of control (control, temporary control, permanent control) could be argued to change ownership - permanent control is just the bluntest. That should be clarified with the next REG update.

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2018, 03:32:26 PM »
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You can't change ownership. Each of the 3 definitions of control (control, temporary control, permanent control) could be argued to change ownership - permanent control is just the bluntest. That should be clarified with the next REG update.

All you have to do is take out this line in Permanent Control

Quote
If a player has permanent control of a card, then he can treat that card as if it came from his deck.

In fact, I'm not sure what this line could mean, except that it would become "Your" card and be considered and "Opponent's" card for your opponent (and maybe a few other abilities, but I don't feel like going through all the abilities in the game).
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2018, 09:08:59 PM »
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So, just to clarify, by the logic of have to take from Reserve and give to opponent to draw, Samuel should be able to search for David or King Saul and NOT put in play in order to not draw then, right? I've heard that's not the case because "and put in play" is a default condition or something but that doesn't really track with KoT then. Or is that just considered old wording now?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2018, 09:34:24 PM »
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So, just to clarify, by the logic of have to take from Reserve and give to opponent to draw, Samuel should be able to search for David or King Saul and NOT put in play in order to not draw then, right? I've heard that's not the case because "and put in play" is a default condition or something but that doesn't really track with KoT then. Or is that just considered old wording now?

I don't see any reason why you couldn't put them in hand as long as you don't mind skipping the draw.

Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2018, 09:59:39 PM »
+1
I really want Doomed Canaanites to be a real card PLEASE!

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2018, 10:00:43 PM »
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I really want Doomed Canaanites to be a real card PLEASE!

I thought it was?

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2018, 10:08:47 PM »
+3
At the bottom of Gabe's spoiler containing the image
This is not an actual card, but a modified version of the black "Doomed" character.

Online Gabe

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2018, 11:42:19 PM »
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So, just to clarify, by the logic of have to take from Reserve and give to opponent to draw, Samuel should be able to search for David or King Saul and NOT put in play in order to not draw then, right? I've heard that's not the case because "and put in play" is a default condition or something but that doesn't really track with KoT then. Or is that just considered old wording now?

That's a great question. On the surface it appears there could be a contradiction. That caused me to do a little digging and I think I've found the answer. I've opened up a discussion with the other elders to ensure we're on the same page. Here's what I found.

Samuel has one "cost" ability (a search which directs you where to put the card so it cannot default to hand) making it one optional ability that results in a mandatory benefit.

KoT has an optional take to hand and an optional give to opponent (two optional "costs"). If both costs are paid you then gain a benefit.

If we printed KoT a few years ago he'd probably be worded similar to Samuel. But since we use "take" now to get cards from locations you don't control (which includes a search but isn't governed by the same rules as search) the rules that apply to Samuel don't apply to KoT.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2018, 01:57:31 AM »
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Samuel has one "cost" ability (a search which directs you where to put the card so it cannot default to hand) making it one optional ability that results in a mandatory benefit.

KoT has an optional take to hand and an optional give to opponent (two optional "costs"). If both costs are paid you then gain a benefit.

I think this is the current ruling - "and put it in play" is not a default, but an override of the default and thus is part of the search.

If we printed KoT a few years ago he'd probably be worded similar to Samuel. But since we use "take" now to get cards from locations you don't control (which includes a search but isn't governed by the same rules as search) the rules that apply to Samuel don't apply to KoT.

Or if we printed Samuel today, he'd be "You may play David or King Saul from deck to draw 2." (Ignoring the fact that he probably wouldn't have that ability today.)

Offline Josh

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2018, 10:03:11 PM »
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So I don't know Canaanites but is there many ways to get back your EC that you give to your opponent?  seems like a large cost to pay for a draw 1 if there isn't a few viable ways to get them back

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Offline Josh

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Re: Black is weak
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2018, 11:29:08 AM »
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So, just to clarify, by the logic of have to take from Reserve and give to opponent to draw, Samuel should be able to search for David or King Saul and NOT put in play in order to not draw then, right? I've heard that's not the case because "and put in play" is a default condition or something but that doesn't really track with KoT then. Or is that just considered old wording now?

Samuel has one "cost" ability (a search which directs you where to put the card so it cannot default to hand) making it one optional ability that results in a mandatory benefit.

I can definitely see TheJaylor's reasoning though, since "Search deck for David/Saul" and "Put David/Saul in play" are both distinct abilities.  I think we simply didn't treat them as such back in the day, due to the "If a search tells you to do something with the card" rules.  Which, in hindsight, I don't think we ever truly needed.

I'm trying to mentally map out how Samuel's ability would read (via old ability language using "Search" instead of "Take") if we wanted him to operate the same way as KoT - where you have 2 optional abilities, and you can't carry out the second if you don't carry out the first, and these two optional abilities form the cost for a cost-benefit ability.  Seems to me he'd be worded the same way.
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