Author Topic: Prophets & Babylonians  (Read 2608 times)

Offline Master Q

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Prophets & Babylonians
« on: December 05, 2018, 04:22:25 PM »
+1
Inspired by the cool recent LoR PoC deck article: http://landofredemption.com/?p=9143. These are always great articles because building decks is fun when a new set comes out (and in general). I've had a list like this in my head for awhile but haven't put it down until now; mostly due to not doing a lot of Redemption anything for awhile, and partly due to the fact that it will most definitely be reworked once PoC phase 2 is released.  ;)

Lost Souls: 7
Darkness
Wanderer
Imitate
Dull
Lawless
Awake
Prosperity

Dominants: 7
Chariot of Fire
TSC
AotL
Grapes
3 Woes
FA (w)
CM

Arts/Forts/Sites: 5
Unknown Nation
You Will Remain
I am Creator
Babel
Ends

Heroes: 9
The Angel of the Winds
Moses, Friend of God
Isaiah
The Watchman
Ezekiel
Zechariah, the Renewer
Hosea
Habakkuk
Jonah

GE: 6
The Emmaus Road
Eve's Descendant
The Suffering Servant
Righteous Judge
Faith of Samuel
Two Bears

DAC: 3
Forest Fire
Drawn Sword
The Great Fish

EC: 8
Nebuchadnezzar
The Babylonian Merchants
Babylonian Siege Army
Mounted Forces
Nimrod, the Mighty
Astrologers
Conjurers
The Deceiver

EE: 5
Lurking
The Wages of Sin
Betrayal
Seized by Babylon
Swift Horses


Reserve: 10
Elisha
Malachi
His Name
The Coming Prince
God’s Mercy/Jonah’s Anger
Uzzah
Nerg
Scattered
Regrets
Anthropophobia


I envisioned a deck with Emmaus Road and Wages and this is what I came up with. Whenever I want to use green, I want to use Watchman, and whenever I want to use Watchman, I want to use Ezekiel. And when I want to use Ezekiel, I want to use Babylonians. So, crimson instead of pale green. :P

But is there anything obvious I've missed? Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 12:32:38 PM by Master Q »
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 05:36:31 PM »
+1
Nice, I like this build a lot. I would definitely run Grapes over Mayhem and I think running Humble/Prosperity/Covet just makes every deck strictly better than with NT souls. Also, Mourn & Weep seems kind of underwhelming compared to something like Anthropophobia or Nebby's Pride.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 10:41:23 PM »
0
I would definitely run Grapes over Mayhem and I think running Humble/Prosperity/Covet just makes every deck strictly better than with NT souls. Also, Mourn & Weep seems kind of underwhelming compared to something like Anthropophobia or Nebby's Pride.

I could see Grapes over Mayhem easy.

The OT souls are a staple for my main deck but the NT souls are still quite good. Of course souls are more of a preference than anything, but I'd almost say NT should be for decks with more defense (to make the most of Dull, Imitate, and Lawless) while OT goes for everything else (balanced, speed, etc). This deck falls into balanced but has enough defense and DAC that stuff like Dull and Lawless just make sense. Given a lot of my main attacks are CBN and the defense isn't straight chumps, Humble doesn't do much that I'm seeing. Prosperity might be better than the hand look (Jim) though.

M&W is a guaranteed block for the turn after you play it, with little window for response by the opponent, which seems stupidly good. M&W followed by a dom block is nuts. Nebby's Pride is ok, and I'd probably run it with Nerg and/or Behemoth, but since I have neither (and since YWR is still everywhere) I didn't include it. Anthrop is a card I forgot about because I think of it as blue most of the time, but that could be pretty good (maybe in Reserve in place of Swift Horses or something). I also really want to get Betrayal and/or Regrets in here, but am not sure how to do that...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 10:44:11 PM by Master Q »
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Offline Josh

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 08:30:58 AM »
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Given a lot of my main attacks are CBN and the defense isn't straight chumps

Your defense is fairly chumpy though.  2 drawing EEs, Mourn/Weep, Great Image, Bel's Banquet.

Drawn Sword, Seized By Babylon, IT, and Scattered are your only non-chumpy EEs, and DS will probably get played on offense close to half the time.  And all but Scattered are going to get negated in battle if you don't run Nerg.

I think Anthro is an upgrade over Invoking Terror in Reserve, since IT can't be grabbed by wages and is only spammable on 2 of your characters.  Based on running Zeke/Babs Teams decks at OH States this year, I can confirm that Anthro is legit for the flexibility of Negate + Battlewinner, especially with Nerg.

Since I've mentioned him twice, I really think Nerg needs squeezed in here.  If you are going to take the risk of Charms + two magicians, I think the threat of Nerg in the deck is so much more powerful.  Your opponent will often have to decide between playing AotL on the Charms holder in territory or saving it for Nerg.  (Or they make the decision with incomplete info and you punish them later for it.)  Plus SBB and SH are both simply awesome on Nerg. 

Do you think that either IaC or AotW could be removed to make room?
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 11:24:25 AM »
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I would have thought that New Covenant would be nearly autoinclude in a Zeke deck. I suppose that space is a bit tight and that convert is generally less good than other types of battlewinners, but I might swap His Name for it (and then probably swap Righteous Judge to Reserve to keep more stars over there).

I also might try to squeeze Micah in. He miiiiight be better than Zech here, although you can make arguments either way.
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline Red

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 11:27:43 AM »
0
Given a lot of my main attacks are CBN and the defense isn't straight chumps

Your defense is fairly chumpy though.  2 drawing EEs, Mourn/Weep, Great Image, Bel's Banquet.

Drawn Sword, Seized By Babylon, IT, and Scattered are your only non-chumpy EEs, and DS will probably get played on offense close to half the time.  And all but Scattered are going to get negated in battle if you don't run Nerg.

I think Anthro is an upgrade over Invoking Terror in Reserve, since IT can't be grabbed by wages and is only spammable on 2 of your characters.  Based on running Zeke/Babs Teams decks at OH States this year, I can confirm that Anthro is legit for the flexibility of Negate + Battlewinner, especially with Nerg.

Since I've mentioned him twice, I really think Nerg needs squeezed in here.  If you are going to take the risk of Charms + two magicians, I think the threat of Nerg in the deck is so much more powerful.  Your opponent will often have to decide between playing AotL on the Charms holder in territory or saving it for Nerg.  (Or they make the decision with incomplete info and you punish them later for it.)  Plus SBB and SH are both simply awesome on Nerg. 

Do you think that either IaC or AotW could be removed to make room?
IaC and AotW are both strictly better than every non-wages defensive card in ANY deck.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 11:29:25 AM »
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Do you think that either IaC or AotW could be removed to make room?

I'd not do that unless I had no other choice, given that 10 ECs seems exorbitant (I count The Great Fish as EC 9, but it's obviously flexible) and getting Watchman going ASAP is priority #1. However, I have some other ideas. What if:

I swapped out Magic Charms for Unknown Nation.

Swap M&W for Lurking (I forgot about Lurking; so good with negate ECs like BSA and Great Fish).

Swap Dream for Swift Horses.

Swap Invoking Terror for Nerg.

Swap Great Image for Anthro.

Swap Swift Horses in Reserve for Betrayal.

Swap Bel's Banquet for Regrets (or keep Bel's Banquet).

That sacrifices some of the safer "chump" blocks for more punch. Do I lose a lot without Charms, or is the trade-off for a better match-up against Angels (and a battle-extender in Unknown Nation) worth it? I would say the trade-off is worth it for better consistency and it also justifies having Nerg in Reserve, but it is Charms.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 11:40:08 AM »
+2
IaC and AotW are both strictly better than every non-wages defensive card in ANY deck.

Except Angel Party  ;)

Cards that can be described this way need to not be available in the card pool (except for Legacy formats).  T1 is so boring, seeing "different decks" that still are 30% exactly the same.  IaC, SoG, 3Woes, TSC, AotL, Humble, YWR, CM, etc. 

(I count The Great Fish as EC 9, but it's obviously flexible)

Great Fish is awesome for sure, but so is Bab Merchants, and their Unity clause is not as forgiving as Bab Siege Army's   :(
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:43:11 AM by Josh »
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 11:40:50 AM »
+1
I would have thought that New Covenant would be nearly autoinclude in a Zeke deck. I suppose that space is a bit tight and that convert is generally less good than other types of battlewinners, but I might swap His Name for it (and then probably swap Righteous Judge to Reserve to keep more stars over there).

I also might try to squeeze Micah in. He miiiiight be better than Zech here, although you can make arguments either way.

The New Covenant is definitely good, but:

A. It doesn't do anything against many popular blocks (demons and animals) and I don't want to convert my own guys

B. It isn't DA like Drawn Sword and Forest Fire, so it can't be played by my defense

C. It underdecks itself. I'll usually not want that thanks to Astrologers.

D. It is not a Star card.


Micah was in and out, but I chose out because:

A. His star ability does nothing for me

B. His draw is negatable

C. He's a worse attack than any of my preferred other ones

And Zech, much like Moses, is great for a big body. The fact that he can negate stuff is great in and of itself, but being an 11/12 is almost better in my mind if I want to play a negate war.

(I count The Great Fish as EC 9, but it's obviously flexible)

Great Fish is awesome for sure, but so is Bab Merchants, and their Unity clause is not as forgiving as Bab Siege Army's   :(

That's why it will be a GE most of the time. But Bab Merchants doesn't do much against Angels/Demons, so I'm not zealously committed to his unity. Just 90% ;)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:52:03 AM by Master Q »
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Offline Red

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 12:08:23 PM »
0
IaC and AotW are both strictly better than every non-wages defensive card in ANY deck.

Except Angel Party  ;)

Cards that can be described this way need to not be available in the card pool (except for Legacy formats).  T1 is so boring, seeing "different decks" that still are 30% exactly the same.  IaC, SoG, 3Woes, TSC, AotL, Humble, YWR, CM, etc. 

I fundamentally disagree, I like my Redemption when both decks happen to fire off. Cards that reduce luck make that 70% difference more fun than an 85% or 90% difference but both decks horrendously misfire 10% of the time.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 12:29:32 PM »
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I fundamentally disagree, I like my Redemption when both decks happen to fire off. Cards that reduce luck make that 70% difference more fun than an 85% or 90% difference but both decks horrendously misfire 10% of the time.

I respect that.  I think I even agree with you to an extent, although that might sound contradictory to my earlier stance.

Ideally, the Redemption meta would have 3-4 decks that no one knows which is the best deck, AND those 3-4 decks would have a lot less overlap than decks currently do now.  Including maybe a deck that maybe doesn't play SoG (but which also isn't a turtley troll deck).  Or maybe that doesn't play Doms at all.  Or that maybe has all no-SA LS.  Something to break up the monotony of seeing SoG/TSC/AotL account for 3-6 of the 5-9 rescues a T1 game has.
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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 12:53:59 PM »
0

Ideally, the Redemption meta would have 3-4 decks that no one knows which is the best deck, AND those 3-4 decks would have a lot less overlap than decks currently do now.  Including maybe a deck that maybe doesn't play SoG (but which also isn't a turtley troll deck).  Or maybe that doesn't play Doms at all.  Or that maybe has all no-SA LS.  Something to break up the monotony of seeing SoG/TSC/AotL account for 3-6 of the 5-9 rescues a T1 game has.

Type NW, the cure for monotony. A quick highlight - All decks are 70 cards and no Doms.
It is currently being revisited for minor tweaks and an anticipated re-launch.


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« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 02:31:15 PM by 777Godspeed »
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2018, 10:29:56 PM »
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I like what your deck is doing overall. Seems really solid. I expect to see some like this at top tables for the foreseeable future.

One trick that a I enjoyed in my play test decks that ran Wages was to play Carcasses in the Reserve for its CBN battle winning utility against so many of the meta Heroes. Your deck is really tight already so maybe it doesn’t fit but it’s worth consideration.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2018, 01:49:35 PM »
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One trick that a I enjoyed in my play test decks that ran Wages was to play Carcasses in the Reserve for its CBN battle winning utility against so many of the meta Heroes. Your deck is really tight already so maybe it doesn’t fit but it’s worth consideration.

I thought about Carcasses but yeah, there really isn't room that I'm seeing for it. Crimson is so stacked that it's harder than ever to choose just a handful of its Enhancements to use in a 50-57 card deck.

One of the reasons I ran Fall of Man so much last year was that it was great as both an Art (what I usually played it as) or an EE (amazing against Throne and Flood Survivors). If the Artifact side of Carcasses benefitted me it would be more tempting, but right now Anthro is all-around better for the negate.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2018, 04:25:02 PM »
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Have you gotten a chance to test this deck at all? I'm building a similar defense and I'm interested in your thoughts on the new crimson stuff.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2018, 05:05:12 PM »
+1
Have you gotten a chance to test this deck at all? I'm building a similar defense and I'm interested in your thoughts on the new crimson stuff.

Betrayal is a must IMO. Territory utility, amazing Nebby pull, potentially wins battles on it's own by underdecking the opponent's only battle winner. Going Nebby->Swift Horses->Betrayal is fun.

Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2019, 12:47:53 PM »
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I made a couple of adjustments and played a few test games. In all the games I've played I think the only card I never used was Uzzah as there was never an opportunity. In that vein, I might end up taking out I am Creator for Captured Ark, Golden Censer, or even HSR if I'm feeling particularly heinous.

PS - I hate how this deck plays.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2019, 11:52:18 AM »
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I made a couple of adjustments and played a few test games. In all the games I've played I think the only card I never used was Uzzah as there was never an opportunity. In that vein, I might end up taking out I am Creator for Captured Ark, Golden Censer, or even HSR if I'm feeling particularly heinous.

PS - I hate how this deck plays.

I'm a pretty firm believer in IaC but I can still understanding cutting it if you don't run Uzzah. However, I would never run a deck that doesn't IaC or GWT. GWT is an absolute staple for me in all my decks now.

Offline Josh

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2019, 09:35:55 AM »
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PS - I hate how this deck plays.

I'm curious what you mean here. 
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Offline redemption collector 777

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2019, 01:13:09 PM »
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Just wondering why "Moses , Friend of God" is in this deck??

I don't see any exodus enhancements or other exodus humans to band to??   Is it just for the 10/10 numbers and maybe he can be banded into battle by Faith of Samuel???

Offline goalieking87

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2019, 04:08:23 PM »
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Just wondering why "Moses , Friend of God" is in this deck??

I don't see any exodus enhancements or other exodus humans to band to??   Is it just for the 10/10 numbers and maybe he can be banded into battle by Faith of Samuel???

Angel of the Winds will also exchange with him and negate ECs.

Probably more reasons though...

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2019, 04:09:17 PM »
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Just wondering why "Moses , Friend of God" is in this deck??

I don't see any exodus enhancements or other exodus humans to band to??   Is it just for the 10/10 numbers and maybe he can be banded into battle by Faith of Samuel???

Angel of the Winds will also exchange with him and negate ECs.

Probably more reasons though...

Mulligans are good.
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline goalieking87

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2019, 04:16:26 PM »
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Just wondering why "Moses , Friend of God" is in this deck??

I don't see any exodus enhancements or other exodus humans to band to??   Is it just for the 10/10 numbers and maybe he can be banded into battle by Faith of Samuel???

Angel of the Winds will also exchange with him and negate ECs.

Probably more reasons though...

Mulligans are good.

Oh, I suppose those are good too.

Non-play testers are not used to utilizing star abilities yet though...

Need to play more Refemption. :o

Offline Asahel24601

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2019, 04:41:57 PM »
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I might consider Jeremiah if you can find the room for him. He lets you get the temple priest half of Zechariah (Unlike Ezekiel, who isn't considered a temple priest because it's not stated if he was one), and the negate protection on evil characters and fortresses is useful (especially with how popular Fire Foxes and Uzzah are) in its own right. I honestly don't know what would be work cutting instead, though.

Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2019, 10:07:56 PM »
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Just wondering why "Moses , Friend of God" is in this deck??

I don't see any exodus enhancements or other exodus humans to band to??   Is it just for the 10/10 numbers and maybe he can be banded into battle by Faith of Samuel???

In addition to the reasons others have given I will also say he's usually good for soaking up an enhancement or 2. Chariot has also rescued him nearly every other game, so he's good for something.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2019, 10:42:55 PM »
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PS - I hate how this deck plays.

I'm curious what you mean here.

Any deck that punishes the opponent for simply playing the game is not much fun to play or play against, imo. This deck is capable of having a combination of Jonah, habbakuk, merchants, and Babel out early enough to be more than a nuisance, and consistently enough to be more than egregious. Not to mention almost every attack this deck should be making is CBN (Zeke, Isaiah), meaning lots of boring, non-interactive battles. Not to mention the "discard an evil card from a reserve" star abilities, which trigger nearly every game (sometimes more with Isaiah) and uncounterably shoot the opponent's reserve in the foot.

Long story short, this deck has so many things for free while countering almost everything the opponent does, also for free. It's not as bad as other decks of recent nats (you know the ones), but it's leaving a bad taste in my mouth just the same. I can only imagine what mirror matches would be like...
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2019, 10:48:56 PM »
+2
PS - I hate how this deck plays.

I'm curious what you mean here.

Any deck that punishes the opponent for simply playing the game is not much fun to play or play against, imo. This deck is capable of having a combination of Jonah, habbakuk, merchants, and Babel out early enough to be more than a nuisance, and consistently enough to be more than egregious. Not to mention almost every attack this deck should be making is CBN (Zeke, Isaiah), meaning lots of boring, non-interactive battles. Not to mention the "discard an evil card from a reserve" star abilities, which trigger nearly every game (sometimes more with Isaiah) and uncounterably shoot the opponent's reserve in the foot.

Long story short, this deck has so many things for free while countering almost everything the opponent does, also for free. It's not as bad as other decks of recent nats (you know the ones), but it's leaving a bad taste in my mouth just the same. I can only imagine what mirror matches would be like...

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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2019, 11:36:06 PM »
+3
PS - I hate how this deck plays.

I'm curious what you mean here.

Any deck that punishes the opponent for simply playing the game is not much fun to play or play against, imo. This deck is capable of having a combination of Jonah, habbakuk, merchants, and Babel out early enough to be more than a nuisance, and consistently enough to be more than egregious. Not to mention almost every attack this deck should be making is CBN (Zeke, Isaiah), meaning lots of boring, non-interactive battles. Not to mention the "discard an evil card from a reserve" star abilities, which trigger nearly every game (sometimes more with Isaiah) and uncounterably shoot the opponent's reserve in the foot.

Long story short, this deck has so many things for free while countering almost everything the opponent does, also for free. It's not as bad as other decks of recent nats (you know the ones), but it's leaving a bad taste in my mouth just the same. I can only imagine what mirror matches would be like...

The best way to beat a good player is take away their ability to play well by giving them as few decisions as possible. Punish and uninteractivity will always be present in the best decks.

Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2019, 11:01:46 AM »
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The best way to beat a good player is take away their ability to play well by giving them as few decisions as possible. Punish and uninteractivity will always be present in the best decks.

I agree. But not everyone is a "good player". We want people to play, right? If so, why do the winning decks of the past recent years all focus on doing the opposite?

I get that from a competitive standpoint that's exactly what you want to do. I'm merely questioning if decks like this and years prior are healthy or not.

Understand, this is far from as problematic as Abom, Col, and Throne blitz. But it has a bit of that blood in it. And that's not really my playstyle.

Good decks don't always equal fun decks.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 11:05:41 AM by Master Q »
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2019, 11:47:34 AM »
+1
The best way to beat a good player is take away their ability to play well by giving them as few decisions as possible. Punish and uninteractivity will always be present in the best decks.

I agree. But not everyone is a "good player". We want people to play, right? If so, why do the winning decks of the past recent years all focus on doing the opposite?

I get that from a competitive standpoint that's exactly what you want to do. I'm merely questioning if decks like this and years prior are healthy or not.

Understand, this is far from as problematic as Abom, Col, and Throne blitz. But it has a bit of that blood in it. And that's not really my playstyle.

Good decks don't always equal fun decks.

The biggest "problem" so to speak is that Redemption doesn't have a great differentiation between Control, Aggro and Midrange. In recent years starting with Abom it's actually been possible to blend two of the three creating monsters that combo early and stop the opponent from doing the same
Covenant with Death. That is all.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2019, 12:16:23 PM »
0
Keeping the opponent from playing has ALWAYS been part of the best decks in the game. It's taken on different shapes over the years, but that was the case long before I even found Redemption.

When I started I studied past tournament winning decks to figure out the best ways to play Redemption. In T2 I recall an Eric Largent deck that used Provisions + Plague of Frogs to choose his own defenders and get them back while winning a LS. In T1-2P I recall reading about Tim Maly's FBTN+CBN deck that kept opponents from doing anything. In T1-MP I was enthralled by Justin Alstad's SpEeD FrEaK that drew out the entire deck in the first couple turns to win before the opponent ever set up. Those are just the ones before I started playing. There have been many since. Like Clifts SitC T2 deck. That might be the ugliest of them all.

We do a lot to promote interaction, but the best players will always find ways to limit interaction. The things that Habakkuk, Jonah, Babylonian Merchants, etc are doing were already in the game but being splashed into decks. Giving more brigades options like that without the need to splash feels like a good idea. If we get enough of these that they become common in all the top decks maybe people will start playing cards that negate TC characters.
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2019, 12:39:47 PM »
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If only Cloud Moses didn't negate your own dudes.....
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2019, 03:56:27 PM »
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If only Cloud Moses didn't negate your own dudes.....

Then he'd be OP.  :o ;D
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2019, 06:33:13 PM »
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If only Cloud Moses didn't negate your own dudes.....

Then he'd be OP.  :o ;D

Sounds like you guys have some more play testing to do before releasing whatever character you are hinting at.

Offline jesse

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2019, 09:47:04 PM »
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The best way to beat a good player is take away their ability to play well by giving them as few decisions as possible. Punish and uninteractivity will always be present in the best decks.

I agree. But not everyone is a "good player". We want people to play, right? If so, why do the winning decks of the past recent years all focus on doing the opposite?

I get that from a competitive standpoint that's exactly what you want to do. I'm merely questioning if decks like this and years prior are healthy or not.

Understand, this is far from as problematic as Abom, Col, and Throne blitz. But it has a bit of that blood in it. And that's not really my playstyle.

Good decks don't always equal fun decks.

I'm encouraged when I hear you talk like this, Josh. Not saying that anyone else doesn't, but it's really cool that you involve your conscience in playing the game. I also ideally want for my games to be fair fights that are fun for everyone, as much as possible...I'd pretty much rather lose than cause my opponent NPE! :laugh: But of course fairness and NPE can be subjective, a fine line, and personal conscience is definitely involved. So I'm not judging anyone for whatever cards or playstyles they use, just saying how I personally feel about it and once again commending you for caring.  8)
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2019, 11:05:26 PM »
+1
I think it's also worth mentioning that there are different kinds of NPE.

Sometimes, your opponent simply has a superior deck (or a deck that perfectly counters yours), and it feels like nothing worked for you. While it certainly might feel negative while you're going through it, that can be an opportunity to learn. I never like losing, but I have learned to appreciate watching my opponent brilliantly pilot a well-built deck (of course most of the time it ends up being my younger brother... ::))

Other times, your opponent just gets super lucky (or you get super unlucky) even though your decks (on paper) are evenly matched. To me, that's a far worse NPE because as much as you might try to minimize the luck factor, it's still going to impact your games in random ways and there's not much you can really learn from getting unlucky.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2019, 11:48:50 PM »
+1
Yes, it's definitely more of a personal preference that drives my dislike of how this plays. It's just so easy and so coherent; almost like it was done on purpose... ;)

I think my opinion will ultimately improve with phase 2. After all, a half doesn't necessarily equal the whole.

If only Cloud Moses didn't negate your own dudes.....

Then he'd be OP.  :o ;D

Sounds like you guys have some more play testing to do before releasing whatever character you are hinting at.

Sounds more to me like a subtle reminder that Golden Calf exists. If only there was a reliable way to grab that in the match-ups where it shines...
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Prophets & Babylonians
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2019, 12:36:49 PM »
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I definitely considered Golden Calf too. Reason I made the comment though was because it is an artifact rather than a hero and therefore much easier to get rid of than Moses (CoW)