Author Topic: Nats T1-2P meta recap (Read 7348 times)

NathanW · « **Reply #25 on:** August 08, 2017, 09:10:45 PM »

I believe MasterQ has mentioned this in the past but I think an adoption of the equal good/evil deckbuilding rule from T2 might be interesting for T1

Ironisaac · « **Reply #26 on:** August 08, 2017, 09:13:10 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on August 08, 2017, 09:01:44 PM

Quote from: Red on August 08, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
As a top-level Redemption player who has been active for multiple competitive seasons, I will say my due about Kony/CoL decks.

If these decks are not dealt with in such a manner to remove them from competitive viability, I may well quit the game as a competitive player. After living through the heck that was the time of TGT's domination, I don't wish to do it ever again. Redemption as a game is excellent when player interaction is at a height. Children decks remove interaction to such an extent that it makes me not want to play Redemption if I know that I have to play against them.
I quit T1 because of things like TGT and judges whenever they first were around and dominating. Children to me is the same. Between decks like those and a lack of diversity among the competitive meta, T1 just lost its appeal for me. That said T2 seems very balanced right now and open for many decks to thrive so I don't think it's a constructed format problem just a T1 problem.

Yeah, until everyone starts running Mayhem/displeased philistines decks. Stop ruining the meta JD!

Red Wing · « **Reply #27 on:** August 08, 2017, 10:12:43 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on August 08, 2017, 09:01:44 PM

Quote from: Red on August 08, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
As a top-level Redemption player who has been active for multiple competitive seasons, I will say my due about Kony/CoL decks.

If these decks are not dealt with in such a manner to remove them from competitive viability, I may well quit the game as a competitive player. After living through the heck that was the time of TGT's domination, I don't wish to do it ever again. Redemption as a game is excellent when player interaction is at a height. Children decks remove interaction to such an extent that it makes me not want to play Redemption if I know that I have to play against them.
I quit T1 because of things like TGT and judges whenever they first were around and dominating. Children to me is the same. Between decks like those and a lack of diversity among the competitive meta, T1 just lost its appeal for me. That said T2 seems very balanced right now and open for many decks to thrive so I don't think it's a constructed format problem just a T1 problem.

I hear similar opinions expressed by T2 players fairly often. Although my T2 experience is extremely limited, I think it's an oversimplification at the very least. TGT and Judges were just as strong in T2 as T1. If you think Edict or He is Risen is OP just wait until x4 of them are dropped on you. It's also worth noting that some of the most broken combo decks in the history of the game (Sin in the Camp, ANB) were most viable in T2.

kariusvega · « **Reply #28 on:** August 08, 2017, 10:38:37 PM »

coney is phenomenal and everyone who was running throne last year had every opportunity to run it this year. it just so happened that it won nationals not because it is invincible or the only winning strategy but because people came ill equipped to stop it. the land of redemption article posted july 13- i made sure it was public info for the sake of fun in the community.

is it even right or good to stop a child of light with the full armor of God and all of the fruits of the spirit? that is a beautiful thing thematically and in strategy. i know more ways than i can count with two hands on how to stop it and even have had epic battles against coney in my own play testing which i have sent to be posted exclusively in my land of redemption tournament report

i really hope everyone can begin to see how epic battles can exist in a coney meta, it's not like they don't. in fact, some of the most advanced strategists such as John Earley, Tyler Stevens, and Josiah Beers have already formulated decks which challenge coney to the fullest (see their national 1st and 2nd place decks from 2015) and these were more along the very decks i was testing against and expected to see, yet saw none of.

decks with site guard souls, gates of hell, charms, writs, herod's dungeon, image of the beast, mark of the beast, god of this world, priest of zeus, decree, guiding angel, nicolaitans teaching, hypocrisy.. 0 coliseum lions, 0 coliseum, 0 king's pomps, 0 cwd, 0 shame souls, maybe 2 punisher, i don't think i played against anyone playing hypocrisy. i probably should have just run mayhem instead of guardian. did anyone use woes on a single piece of armor or a single fruit that made a significant difference? i really only attribute my one loss to soul drought and deck building

all of that said i don't think this deck style is bad for the game and it only eliminates battle phases if you want it to(ie in your own deck building phase).

in 2015 we saw the hyper car of defensive decks and this year we saw the koenigsegg of aggro. quite beautiful to me. from complete darkness to complete light

at the end of the day i really want Hope to enable 1 thing more than any other(regardless of coney, because i was mostly rescuing with Peace anyway).. Eternal Inheritance/Christ's Triumph. this is the best thing in the game to me (and rightly should be) next to Son of God and The Second Coming. this game is a phenomenal ministry and i know of few things that could bring more people directly to Christ. on the other hand i know we want balance and game duration. that said, if you want to play a control style i suggest showing a similar kind of devotion as the coney build and John Earley's national 2015 deck. his deck is the forerunner to coney. it is the perfect storm of control and complete lock down. i believe these two decks show us the depths of control vs aggro styles currently within the Redemption meta.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #29 on:** August 08, 2017, 11:04:53 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on August 08, 2017, 10:12:43 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on August 08, 2017, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Red on August 08, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
As a top-level Redemption player who has been active for multiple competitive seasons, I will say my due about Kony/CoL decks.

If these decks are not dealt with in such a manner to remove them from competitive viability, I may well quit the game as a competitive player. After living through the heck that was the time of TGT's domination, I don't wish to do it ever again. Redemption as a game is excellent when player interaction is at a height. Children decks remove interaction to such an extent that it makes me not want to play Redemption if I know that I have to play against them.
I quit T1 because of things like TGT and judges whenever they first were around and dominating. Children to me is the same. Between decks like those and a lack of diversity among the competitive meta, T1 just lost its appeal for me. That said T2 seems very balanced right now and open for many decks to thrive so I don't think it's a constructed format problem just a T1 problem.
I hear similar opinions expressed by T2 players fairly often. Although my T2 experience is extremely limited, I think it's an oversimplification at the very least. TGT and Judges were just as strong in T2 as T1. If you think Edict or He is Risen is OP just wait until x4 of them are dropped on you. It's also worth noting that some of the most broken combo decks in the history of the game (Sin in the Camp, ANB) were most viable in T2.

it could be just me but it feels like other themes can compete on equal footing due to the differences in deck building rules and playing to 7. Judges and TGT are still good in T2 but not so much better that the meta is defined by them. I guess a simple example is mono silver won T2 last year. Granted it was played by possibly the greatest T2 player around but no one saw it coming. Combo decks have been historically T2 but it seems like T2 has evolved past the days of those ruining games for players. That's my opinion though. It could just be my preference of playstyle. I mean I enjoy T2 multi more than most formats so maybe I'm just crazy.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #30 on:** August 09, 2017, 12:05:46 AM »

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on August 08, 2017, 09:10:45 PM

I believe MasterQ has mentioned this in the past but I think an adoption of the equal good/evil deckbuilding rule from T2 might be interesting for T1

Absolutely not. The reason the CoL deck works running so few evil cards is because Children cycles all the placed enhancements. All the placed enhancements effectively reduce your deck size. If you don't count the cantrips, the actual deck is almost exactly split between good and evil. Decks like John's winning Greek deck that was almost all defensive cards and decks like mine and JD's winning CoL decks with almost all offensive cards are not problematic because they have an imbalance of card alignment, they are powerful because they are built around cards that nullify the inherent weaknesses in stacking your deck towards one side.

Adopting such a rule in Type 1 would doom deck diversity forever and every match would feel exactly the same; there would be very little room for creativity and deck innovation since the format would solve itself within a month of each set release.

This isn't to say the CoL isn't unhealthy for the game because it is, for all the reasons that have been stated before. However, I believe there are enough cards out there that are pretty easy to slot into normal decks that once people learn exactly how CoL functions and the points at which the deck is vulnerable it will cease to be a Tier 1 tournament deck. Regardless of whether the power level dips, however, it will remain much less interactive than other decks and I agree it is a problem that needs a solution. I definitely believe though that that solution is a few strong counters in the next set rather than something as drastic as deck building requirement changes.

kariusvega · « **Reply #31 on:** August 09, 2017, 12:23:19 AM »

Let's also be honest here Coney was the underdog going in to nationals and basically everyone was counting on it to lose.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #32 on:** August 09, 2017, 01:09:16 AM »

The problem with Kony is not its power level but its disposal of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

Red · « **Reply #33 on:** August 09, 2017, 07:39:56 AM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on August 09, 2017, 12:05:46 AM

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on August 08, 2017, 09:10:45 PM
I believe MasterQ has mentioned this in the past but I think an adoption of the equal good/evil deckbuilding rule from T2 might be interesting for T1
Adopting such a rule in Type 1 would doom deck diversity forever and every match would feel exactly the same; there would be very little room for creativity and deck innovation since the format would solve itself within a month of each set release.

The existence of T2 disproves this thesis. I would advocate for such a change. It allows Redemption to be played as it was meant to be played every single game.

Red Wing · « **Reply #34 on:** August 09, 2017, 07:53:47 AM »

Quote from: Red on August 09, 2017, 07:39:56 AM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on August 09, 2017, 12:05:46 AM
Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on August 08, 2017, 09:10:45 PM
I believe MasterQ has mentioned this in the past but I think an adoption of the equal good/evil deckbuilding rule from T2 might be interesting for T1
Adopting such a rule in Type 1 would doom deck diversity forever and every match would feel exactly the same; there would be very little room for creativity and deck innovation since the format would solve itself within a month of each set release.
The existence of T2 disproves this thesis. I would advocate for such a change. It allows Redemption to be played as it was meant to be played every single game.

T2 only lends itself to more diversity because of the larger deck size. If you want equal good and evil just play T2.

h20tor · « **Reply #35 on:** August 09, 2017, 08:34:00 AM »

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on August 08, 2017, 09:10:45 PM

I believe MasterQ has mentioned this in the past but I think an adoption of the equal good/evil deckbuilding rule from T2 might be interesting for T1

I would be fine with this as it's own format in general.

h20tor · « **Reply #36 on:** August 09, 2017, 08:35:16 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 12:23:19 AM

Let's also be honest here Coney was the underdog going in to nationals and basically everyone was counting on it to lose.

It shouldn't have surprised anyone either, you were on here talking about it and showing WAY before nationals.

kariusvega · « **Reply #37 on:** August 09, 2017, 10:00:43 AM »

Quote from: h20tor on August 09, 2017, 08:35:16 AM

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 12:23:19 AM
Let's also be honest here Coney was the underdog going in to nationals and basically everyone was counting on it to lose.

It shouldn't have surprised anyone either, you were on here talking about it and showing WAY before nationals.

The best part of this discussion is you played what you thought would win, and in many cases you probably weren't wrong. Anyone could complain about those things if you did ie "woman with child mini game" "throne mini game" "job mini game" there are a lot of ways to win I don't see each one as broken.

Many people were unprepared and didn't know what they wanted to play until right before deck check (myself included). As stated before if you want more battle phase run more battle extension. These cards have existed much longer than roj and historically work (Tyler Stevens 70 card and Josiah Beers 2015 are perfect examples)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #38 on:** August 09, 2017, 10:20:01 AM »

Quote from: Red on August 09, 2017, 07:39:56 AM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on August 09, 2017, 12:05:46 AM
Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on August 08, 2017, 09:10:45 PM
I believe MasterQ has mentioned this in the past but I think an adoption of the equal good/evil deckbuilding rule from T2 might be interesting for T1
Adopting such a rule in Type 1 would doom deck diversity forever and every match would feel exactly the same; there would be very little room for creativity and deck innovation since the format would solve itself within a month of each set release.
The existence of T2 disproves this thesis. I would advocate for such a change. It allows Redemption to be played as it was meant to be played every single game.

Type 2's room for diversity lies in the ability to have 2, 3, or even 4 of most cards, in addition to the larger minimum deck size. Type 1's diversity is already slowly shrinking with the increasing amount of staples such as Ends of the Earth. If equal good and evil was imposed on Type 1 there would be so little room for deck building that it would be trivial to find the absolute best deck or two and the meta would become one of, if not the most stale Redemption has ever seen.

Red Wing · « **Reply #39 on:** August 09, 2017, 10:21:27 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 10:00:43 AM

Quote from: h20tor on August 09, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 12:23:19 AM
Let's also be honest here Coney was the underdog going in to nationals and basically everyone was counting on it to lose.

It shouldn't have surprised anyone either, you were on here talking about it and showing WAY before nationals.

The best part of this discussion is you played what you thought would win, and in many cases you probably weren't wrong. Anyone could complain about those things if you did ie "woman with child mini game" "throne mini game" "job mini game" there are a lot of ways to win I don't see each one as broken.

Many people were unprepared and didn't know what they wanted to play until right before deck check (myself included). As stated before if you want more battle phase run more battle extension. These cards have existed much longer than roj and historically work (Tyler Stevens 70 card and Josiah Beers 2015 are perfect examples)

Battle extension cards like Gates, Madness and UN are useless against Kony

kariusvega · « **Reply #40 on:** August 09, 2017, 10:27:06 AM »

woman with child and priests of Christ going straight for dominants or Ehud+dagger/Jephthah/holy grail/auto protected Gideon cbn Samuels edict to dominate their blocking options is practically synonymous to Coney except you have more ways to do those things without losing the game because you did :p

Red Wing · « **Reply #41 on:** August 09, 2017, 10:38:23 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 10:27:06 AM

woman with child and priests of Christ going straight for dominants or Ehud/Jephthah/holy grail to dominate their blocking options is practically synonymous to Coney except you have more ways to do those things without losing the game because you did :p

Those cards are definitely strong but they are not at all comparable to Kony.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #42 on:** August 09, 2017, 10:41:19 AM »

Quote from: Red Wing on August 09, 2017, 10:38:23 AM

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 10:27:06 AM
woman with child and priests of Christ going straight for dominants or Ehud/Jephthah/holy grail to dominate their blocking options is practically synonymous to Coney except you have more ways to do those things without losing the game because you did :p
Those cards are definitely strong but they are not at all comparable to Kony.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #43 on:** August 09, 2017, 11:08:21 AM »

JD literally told everyone he was dominating people 5-0 in 2-3 turns. He then wrote an ENTIRE article on the deck for everyone to read. Then he shows up at nationals and CoL tales 1st and 2nd respectively and everyone is mad and complaining how bad CoL is for the game? JD gave his winning formula and said what his deck was and people still DID NOT counter. That is not CoL's fault at all. That is the field's fault. We all know Redemption will not ban a card unless absolutely needed and people not using counters is not a reason to ban a card. Especially since the new set has not even come out yet. So pump the brakes and add some more counters to your decks. I understand CoL is fast so you either commit to beating it or you lose 5-0. The thing is, those counters are solid cards in general and then more people who commit to beating CoL means the more CoL loses. That effectively takes away Kony. We as players set the meta, the playtesters create the set, don't let one card ruin Type 1.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #44 on:** August 09, 2017, 01:05:21 PM »

The problem with Kony is not it's power level but that it dispenses of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

kariusvega · « **Reply #45 on:** August 09, 2017, 01:45:49 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 09, 2017, 01:05:21 PM

The problem with Kony is not it's power level but that it dispenses of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

Oh yah just like woman with child to Angel/woes/tsc/grapes and priests of Christ and or jephthah grail auto gideon edict

Those things exist too in plenty I get what you're saying but it is not an isolated issue. Regardless of children of light chump blocks have been reliable for years for the exact reasons mentioned

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #46 on:** August 09, 2017, 05:06:41 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 01:45:49 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 09, 2017, 01:05:21 PM
The problem with Kony is not it's power level but that it dispenses of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

Oh yah just like woman with child to Angel/woes/tsc/grapes and priests of Christ and or jephthah grail auto gideon edict

Those things exist too in plenty I get what you're saying but it is not an isolated issue. Regardless of children of light chump blocks have been reliable for years for the exact reasons mentioned

Chump blocks can easily be played around since they are activated by set conditions and in almost every case chump blockers aren't something you can just run out to battle for free every turn.

Red · « **Reply #47 on:** August 09, 2017, 06:04:56 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 01:45:49 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 09, 2017, 01:05:21 PM
The problem with Kony is not it's power level but that it dispenses of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

Oh yah just like woman with child to Angel/woes/tsc/grapes and priests of Christ and or jephthah grail auto gideon edict

Those things exist too in plenty I get what you're saying but it is not an isolated issue. Regardless of children of light chump blocks have been reliable for years for the exact reasons mentioned

Those cards do not dispense of the battle phase in any way similar to Voltron'd Children. A Voltron'd Children does not let me play my cards in any meaningful fashion. Woman with Child does. This is not a valid argument.

kariusvega · « **Reply #48 on:** August 09, 2017, 06:09:21 PM »

Quote from: Red on August 09, 2017, 06:04:56 PM

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 09, 2017, 01:05:21 PM
The problem with Kony is not it's power level but that it dispenses of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

Oh yah just like woman with child to Angel/woes/tsc/grapes and priests of Christ and or jephthah grail auto gideon edict

Those things exist too in plenty I get what you're saying but it is not an isolated issue. Regardless of children of light chump blocks have been reliable for years for the exact reasons mentioned
Those cards do not dispense of the battle phase in any way similar to Voltron'd Children. A Voltron'd Children does not let me play my cards in any meaningful fashion. Woman with Child does. This is not a valid argument.

Coming from the guy stroking his battle phase who handed me two decks with the cheapest blocks and rescues via tgt and judges/Assyrians :p

Red · « **Reply #49 on:** August 09, 2017, 06:12:04 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 06:09:21 PM

Quote from: Red on August 09, 2017, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on August 09, 2017, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 09, 2017, 01:05:21 PM
The problem with Kony is not it's power level but that it dispenses of the battle phase we just spent three sets getting back.

Oh yah just like woman with child to Angel/woes/tsc/grapes and priests of Christ and or jephthah grail auto gideon edict

Those things exist too in plenty I get what you're saying but it is not an isolated issue. Regardless of children of light chump blocks have been reliable for years for the exact reasons mentioned
Those cards do not dispense of the battle phase in any way similar to Voltron'd Children. A Voltron'd Children does not let me play my cards in any meaningful fashion. Woman with Child does. This is not a valid argument.
[/quote

Coming from the guy stroking his battle phase who handed me two decks with the cheapest blocks and rescues via tgt and judges/Assyrians :p ]
Judges was never a NPE deck. TGT was nerfed to the point of non-issue at that point. I don't understand all the needless defense of a stupid deck that should never have made it past playtesting.

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Author Topic: Nats T1-2P meta recap (Read 7348 times)

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