Author Topic: Matchups discussion (Type II)  (Read 1504 times)

TheHobbit13

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Matchups discussion (Type II)
« on: May 20, 2019, 10:42:23 PM »
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So I am wanting to get everyone's opinion on the above topic and then compile a list in this post. The diversity of the type II meta necessitates a new sort of tie breaker which I am calling matchups. More specifically, matchups for offense and defenses. Eventually, I want to make an excel spreadsheet of this but it goes something like this:

Babylon's vs Judges ----> +Judges, because 2/2, bullet-proof Gideon gets initiative under bells banquet and is protected by Seized by Babylon, Neb's Pride, Head of Gold etc. Babylonian tech options:  incorporate regardless of protection cards, gideons ephod etc. end the battle stuff Judges tech options: fbtn lost soul, Moses, artifact destruction, YWR recursions

Offline goalieking87

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2019, 10:56:53 PM »
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Really cool idea.

I don’t feel like I am that good at what you are trying to do, but I’ll throw out an opinion:

Babylonians vs Musicians - Babylonians because of Babylonian Merchants anti-search, CBN Nergalsharezer ands/or Scattered (to handle Cheneniah banding). Head of Gold to target key Heroes from territory and musicians tend to rely on a couple of really important characters plus some others for support.  Mitigate this by keeping offense diversified in battle winning options, use Golden Calf, mix with drawing defense to maintain speed of your searching offense is crap down.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2019, 11:17:41 PM »
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Angels vs Demon-Magicians -- Angels come out on top because several of the key Magician cards only target humans (Magic Charms, Invoking Terror), and Michael (RoJ) just dominates demons. Demon-Magicians techs: interrupt/play next enhancements such as Two Thousand Horses and Dream as none of the common Silver battle winners are CBN/CBI, double up on Simon the Magician and use NT battle winners like Dissension in Antioch, Hypocrisy and Balaam's Teaching. Angels counter-techs: Holy Grail for characters like Simon and Judean Mediums, using both version of Michael in order to get CBN for battle winners, Forsaken LS to hinder demon-magician banding chains.
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Offline kram1138

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 09:47:59 AM »
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Judges VS Canaanites

I'd say Canaanites have a bit of an edge, as one of the key battle winners for them is regardless of of protection, and the judges generally have a real struggle to get initiative. You can attack with a low numbers judge, but then they can use woman and stone, and if you try to band, say gideon+300, then they get initiative and use gib trick. When your can play enhancements, you can do lots of damage, but getting to that point is tricky. Also, as the main Canaanites enhancements are cbn, edict/dagger don't help much. Coliseum would really mess with the things that Canaanites do that judges are weak against, but it would hurt judges nearly as much or more. As their enhancements are so powerful in this match up, the key to play it as judges is to out speed them and make sure they don't have them. Pairing with a defense that has lots of anti draw and search cards can help a lot. As Canaanites, the key is to not let them play any enhancements. Putting lots of enhancements on reserve and getting sodom and Gomorrah out quickly is very good in the match up. If you do, you can easily have access to your most powerful enhancements for every block, which is key. To complement what I said before, pairing Canaanites with a fast offense is probably a good idea as they don't have much speed by themselves. Envy can be great for shutting down auto, provided they aren't using Moses.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 09:50:29 AM by kram1138 »
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 10:16:57 AM »
+3
I agree with some of your reasoning, but in my experiences judges rock canaanites. Tower of Thebez doesn't stick like it used to and then you get initiative with gideon all you want. And that's just gideon... judges are going to have large banding chains which cannot be stoned or tricked.

Offline kram1138

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 11:24:22 AM »
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I agree with some of your reasoning, but in my experiences judges rock canaanites. Tower of Thebez doesn't stick like it used to and then you get initiative with gideon all you want. And that's just gideon... judges are going to have large banding chains which cannot be stoned or tricked.

I definitely don't think it's that bad. Judges certainly rock Canaanites when they are allowed to play. I have quite a bit of experience with specific flavours of Judges/Canaanites, which probably makes a big difference, but once Canaanites can get set up it can be difficult to play. And don't even try using the Sons of Anak vs Judges. And like I said, it depends a lot on the flavours you use.

Also, which large bands do judges have? The biggest that I can think of is probably just josh+cap.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 01:16:28 PM »
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Judges certainly rock Canaanites when they are allowed to play.

I feel like that's a pretty true principle in general, though. Keeping your opponent from playing (either by territory control, restricting their setup so they can't get things to play, playing first with Throne/Tower/Horses etc.) is one of the most reliable wincons in the game, and it's part of the reason that T1 is such a speedfest. Heck, my T2 Only deck did as well as it did because it tries to stop opponents from playing the game.

On a related note, my (limited) experience of defensive matchups vs. an Isaiah offense: first we'll look at some of the strengths and weaknesses of the offense and then at how several defenses match up to it.

The Offense: The goal is to get set up quickly and keep the opponent from doing the same. Half of your good enhancements are TC setup cards (Call, Wheel, Angelic Guidance); use them and your artifacts to get Isaiah and a few of his angels in play as quickly as possible. Get Jonah in play with a couple Assyrians (a vital defensive paring for this offense) to discourage your opponent from searching. Protection of Jerusalem is a vital part of the strategy - if you set it up right you can sometimes make it CBN, but this is difficult and not always worth the opportunity cost. Nahum is good for triggering PoJ, but Great White Throne is better as it can clear banding chains and can be used at any time. Trade evil characters 1:1 with your opponent - you'll be drawing so many cards off Isaiah you'll stay ahead.
Strengths: Negates Souls and ECs with standard rescue; can prevent opponents from ever playing evil enhancements if they get set up right; controls territory while slowing opponent with Jonah; keeps opponent's evil cards off the table with HT and PoJ/GWT; can even remove blockers from hand via HT/His Name.
Weaknesses: Slowed significantly by anti-search measures, especially in the early game while still setting up. Reliance on territory-class enhancements (both placed and instant) and heroes. Heavy reliance on a single hero (albeit a sticky and easy-to-recover one). Gives away some hand info - nothing outstanding, but knowing there's a negate or a battlewinner in store can be important.

General tips:
  • Any early game anti-search and anti-TC you can find. Signet Ring, Golden Calf, anything you can fit in your deck (and especially find reliably in the early game). If your deck can afford to run Covenant with Death or Nazareth, they're excellent counters, but don't expect them to stay on the table for the entire game.
  • Ways to neutralize PoJ. Even just negates that say "Negate a good card" instead of "interrupt the battle" will work, but ideally you want to keep PoJ off the table (or negated) as much as possible.
  • Territory control of your own. Keeping angels off the table slows Isaiah, and keeping their Assyrian count down significantly defangs PoJ and Jonah. Artifact removal can give you breathing room as well, especially getting rid of GWT and HT.

Babylonians: ++Isaiah. While the anti-search measures of Merchants can help slow their setup, Babs' own reliance on search is a liability. Your best block options are Nebby(TxP), Nergal, and Siege Army - Nebby's play first is vital, Nergal's CBN enhancements are invaluable in an actual battle, and Siege Army can negate and discard PoJ to give you a bit of breathing room (at the cost of losing initiative). Beware of letting someone sit in territory with Horses: this offense excels at sniping ECs outside of battle.

Demons/Magicians: +Isaiah. Judean Mediums is your best friend. Mediums to either Dragon or KoT will almost always stall a turn - just be aware that one or both will likely die as soon as they, PoJ, and GWT are all in play at the same time. Simon is great if he actually gets to play anything. Abaddon is similar to Bab Siege Army - it can negate PoJ, allowing you to have an actual fight at the cost of passing init to Isaiah. Fallen Star looks promising, especially while they're still setting up with TC stuff, but his Goliath-ability means that whoever gets pushed forward is in the same battle (and therefore still has CBN Isaiah enhancements).

Canaanites: +Canaanites. Between idol synergy to find Golden Calf, an emphasis on drawing over searching, plenty of "negate a card" enhancements to stop PoJ, and an easy PoZ splash, this defense can give Isaiah trouble, especially if they can slow the setup. King of Tyrus is still vulnerable to PoJ, but since Isaiah himself doesn't have many cards that negate characters KoT can hold him off on his own sometimes. Init characters (especially females that can play Stone) are also great if you can keep them long enough to play.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 01:47:42 PM »
+2
I've never seen someone do that extensive of analysis of how to beat their own deck... :o
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 01:58:25 PM »
+3
I've never seen someone do that extensive of analysis of how to beat their own deck... :o

If you don't examine your own weaknesses, you'll never improve. I'm fine sharing my own weaknesses - on an old version, after I've updated to help compensate ;)

Also like 75% of that is "Get anti-search asap and get rid of their combo pieces" which honestly, if you're not doing that anyway I don't know what to say.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 02:36:39 PM »
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How relevant are Judges in T2? I still play them occasionally in T1, but I rarely see them used outside a throne or red/cloud splash.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 02:54:57 PM »
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How relevant are Judges in T2? I still play them occasionally in T1, but I rarely see them used outside a throne or red/cloud splash.

Jayden and I both ran Judges at Nationals last year, and Jayden won the T2 Only with Judges this year. I can easily see a Judges/Prophets offense being a force this season.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 09:56:11 PM »
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Riight. I think lacking prophecy makes mono prophet offenses hard to play after phase II. How do you make PoJ cbn Greg? Michael-->Angel's Sword--> PoJ?

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 10:19:42 PM »
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The only way the T2O version could do it was playing it in battle off a Seraph band to Isaiah getting init (usually through protected ECs). I've been experimenting with a couple different ways to make it easier (including Mike), but the jury's still out on whether it's worth it.

That offense is a bit less concerned about Lacking Prophecy than some. It may get a block, but it doesn't do anything to the angels, and once SwLC grabs Call back you're back in business.
In theory, anyway. I haven't gotten to test it against.... really any PoC2 decks yet.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:23:26 PM by Bobbert »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 11:14:19 PM »
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Yeah, I don't see Lacking Prophecy being a problem for FooF Isaiah decks like Greg's. He might lose a couple Heroes (Isaiah, Jonah), but they will be back next turn most likely with Call and Great White Throne.

Major/Minor prophet decks will need to be wary of LP for sure, but those decks should be running Hidden Treasures and LP is an obvious first hit.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 08:52:46 AM »
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Yeah, my bad. I was referring to the judges/prophets comment.

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Matchups discussion (Type II)
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2019, 10:51:47 AM »
+1
Just run Nazareth and you won't have to worry about it. ;)