Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Redoubter, I'm not advocating different rules for different situations, I'm opposing them. Rather than have a rule that says cards return to owners' hands unless a card says otherwise, I am advocating simply having no rule like that. Cards play as written.

Okay, so if I were to shuffle a card I owned and you placed a card on it earlier, that gets shuffled into my deck too?  Or are you saying different rules for different situations, as I stated before?

There's a rule that a card cannot enter a draw or discard pile other than its owner's (for obvious reasons like losing cards, card sleeves letting you know what you would draw), but there is no rule against a card going to a hand other than its owners.

However, the rule is (and always has been) that unless an ability says otherwise, you can't add cards you don't own to your hand.

I was pointing out that Pol wants to have different rules for follow depending on the destination, while he is insisting that he doesn't advocate different rules for each situation.

Yes, there is a current rule on the books. I want to strike the rule, not add a new one.

My point is that right now, the rule is consistent with every other rule regarding what happens to place cards (when the destination is deck or discard), but you want to make this one different.

If you strike this rule, you actually create different rules for different situations of the same ability.  If you strike this rule to have "cards play as they read", then what's the difference in striking the deck or discard rules?

You are suggesting that we add inconsistency to the rule of placed cards and have different results based on the destination.

EDIT: Unless you're suggesting that we also eliminate the restriction on cards going in deck or discard that the player doesn't own...in which case I will strongly disagree for obvious reasons (as Drrek pointed out) and for the consistency of the game.

There is a rule for what happens to cards returned to decks. There is a rule for what happens when a placed card's host goes somewhere else. There is currently also a rule in the REG (that was apparently not made by elder consensus) about what happens when a card is returned to hand. Removing that rule does nothing to the others.

However, then (as I said), you would be introducing a situation where you would have different rules for the same situation that would change based on the destination.  You said you weren't arguing for that, and I was pointing out that this is false.  Changing the rule actually leads to inconsistency.

Deck, discard, and hand may be different, but they all share that they are where one player's cards are.  Unless you specifically override the rule (like with Taking Egypt's Wealth, Gleaning the Fields, and none target deck ATM), cards cannot be put in any of those locations unless they belong to the owner of the card.

If something discards a card when another card is placed on it, why not have the card go to that discard pile?

If something shuffles a card when another card is placed on it, why not have the card follow to that deck?

These two have the same considerations as hand.  If a placed card doesn't go to them, why should it go to hand?

You are trying to make the place rules too complicated by adding a condition on where the cards end up based on each circumstance.  I thought we were trying to make the rules less complicated and with less caveats, but maybe that was just other threads.

Just to clarify the current situation, here's some facts -

Status Quo: Placed cards follow their host everywhere (except when the character is captured). If a placed card would follow to a control-restricted zone (hand, deck, discard pile) it instead goes to its owner's zone of the same type.

What Pol is suggesting: Remove hand as a control-restricted zone.

most new players that I talked too, thought that if they follow, they should follow to the hand that the Character goes

I'd love to meet them, since that is most certainly not intuitive (especially considering the other rules for placed cards) and has not been the conclusion jumped to with any player I have ever met.

What Pol is suggesting: Remove hand as a control-restricted zone.

I understand exactly what he's saying.  I'm suggesting that to change the way placed cards interact with return/shuffle abilities based on their destination with these three zones makes for another 'except when...' rule, another inconsistency, and another situation that is more difficult to address with new players.

If your goal is less exceptions, more consistency, and easier access to the rules for new players (which everyone here has argued for in every thread except this one), then this rule shouldn't be overhauled.

Redoubter - Oh, I know. I was actually trying to support your argument by showing the exception-free current status (when it comes to the location) as opposed to what Pol is proposing. Sorry for the confusion.

Well then, I'm sorry for lumping you in about the whole making the rules more cumbersome   It's late.  I really don't know why I post at this hour, I get cranky and misread things sometimes I guess

Same here.

Not really, since more of the rules are more confusing then not.