Author Topic: Visions of Iddo the Seer (Read 6551 times)

crustpope · « **on:** March 07, 2011, 10:55:57 AM »

Is this a withdraw ability?

Visions of Iddo the Seer (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and return all Heroes and good enhancements in battle to owner's hand except this one. • Play As: Interrupt the battle and withdraw all your Heroes from battle. If this causes good enhancements to be discarded, return all to your hand instead (except this card). • Identifiers: OT, Based on Prophecy, Spiritual Gift • Verse: II Chronicles 9:29

Professoralstad · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:00:14 PM »

Yes. If I recall correctly, "withdraw" is a special case of "return" that applies to characters. So any ability that returns characters to hand, territory, or deck is a withdraw ability.

crustpope · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:29:17 PM »

You probably know where I am going next so I might as well go there. Can you negate the withdraw ability for the heroes and still get the enhancements back?

The Guardian · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:44:08 PM »

I believe the rule is that you cannot interrupt self-removal from battle. (i.e. you play Joseph in Prison, your opponent does not interrupt it--you do not have the option to play Political Savvy)

crustpope · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:49:00 PM »

I am not interrupting it...I am preventing it. Basically, I play visions of iddo the seer but I have prevented the withdrawing ability. Can the hero stay in battle but all my enhancements come back .... so I can play them again?

I know that the answer will be no, I just want to know why.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:11:13 PM »

How exactly do you prevent the withdraw of the Hero but not the return of the enhancements?

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:13:07 PM »

no because the hero isn't withdrawing which is not causing the enhancements to be discarded

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:14:44 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 07, 2011, 01:11:13 PM

How exactly do you prevent the withdraw of the Hero but not the return of the enhancements?

Convert the Red guy who's "protected from withdraw" to green.

crustpope · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:19:57 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 07, 2011, 01:14:44 PM

Quote from: Gabe on March 07, 2011, 01:11:13 PM
How exactly do you prevent the withdraw of the Hero but not the return of the enhancements?
Convert the Red guy who's "protected from withdraw" to green.

That might be one way but that wasnt the way I was thinking

Cornered (AW)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place this card on an occupied site. While in play, negate David's Harp, Chariot of Fire, and "withdraw" abilities on good cards. • Identifiers: OT, Connected with David • Verse: Exodus 14:9

If with draw is a special category of return that applies to heroes then if I negate the withdraw of a hero, but not the enhancements, then this works right? I place this on a site set up a stalemate battle, and play enhancements, play visions of iddo, then rinse and repeat. doing searches, or whatever, until I get what I want done. then ending the battle when I interrupt the immunity and d/c the evil character or pass initiative, either way.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:31:54 PM »

Since you're preventing the withdraw, you're not satisfying the condition to return the cards (based on the Play As).

Professoralstad · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:35:02 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on March 07, 2011, 01:31:54 PM

Since you're preventing the withdraw, you're not satisfying the condition to return the cards (based on the Play As).

That Play As is an errata that shouldn't be there without an official announcement, and I don't think Visions was included in the discussion with Stillness/Highway/Trust (since it withdrew all Heroes, and no one ever thought of Cornered before).

If I had to say why this might not work, it is that even though withdraw=return characters, there is still only one ability after the interrupt: return Heroes and enhancements. So by preventing the one withdraw ability, it could be said that you are preventing the whole ability (the return enhancements and withdraw Heroes). However, that might be a pretty shaky argument.

crustpope · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:38:07 PM »

Actually I would prefer it if it actually worked so that I could set up all my "negate sites, destroy cesarea philipi destroy territory, search for all my good and loveley things" and then end the battle whenI am good and set up...

but I assume that is too much to ask.

The alternative of course is that I could have built a deck like this using this strategy ...but the last time someone tried that Highway became a byway....

Josh · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2011, 02:01:36 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 07, 2011, 01:14:44 PM

Quote from: Gabe on March 07, 2011, 01:11:13 PM
How exactly do you prevent the withdraw of the Hero but not the return of the enhancements?
Convert the Red guy who's "protected from withdraw" to green.

Doesn't "Interrupt the battle" interrupt all ongoing special abilities, such as Asahel's protection?

crustpope · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2011, 02:04:21 PM »

Probably, but it wouldn't work against cornered

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:50:17 PM »

Visions of Iddo the Seer (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and return all Heroes and good enhancements in battle to owner's hand except this one. • Play As: Interrupt the battle and withdraw all your Heroes from battle. If this causes good enhancements to be discarded, return all to your hand instead (except this card). • Identifiers: OT, Based on Prophecy, Spiritual Gift • Verse: II Chronicles 9:29 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 07, 2011, 01:35:02 PM

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on March 07, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
Since you're preventing the withdraw, you're not satisfying the condition to return the cards (based on the Play As).

That Play As is an errata that shouldn't be there without an official announcement, and I don't think Visions was included in the discussion with Stillness/Highway/Trust (since it withdrew all Heroes, and no one ever thought of Cornered before).

If I had to say why this might not work, it is that even though withdraw=return characters, there is still only one ability after the interrupt: return Heroes and enhancements. So by preventing the one withdraw ability, it could be said that you are preventing the whole ability (the return enhancements and withdraw Heroes). However, that might be a pretty shaky argument.

Would this not be a do as much as possible argument like Jephthah? return all heros (prevented), return all enhancements (ok)

crustpope · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:58:33 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 07, 2011, 06:50:17 PM

Visions of Iddo the Seer (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and return all Heroes and good enhancements in battle to owner's hand except this one. • Play As: Interrupt the battle and withdraw all your Heroes from battle. If this causes good enhancements to be discarded, return all to your hand instead (except this card). • Identifiers: OT, Based on Prophecy, Spiritual Gift • Verse: II Chronicles 9:29 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)

Would this not be a do as much as possible argument like Jephthah? return all heros (prevented), return all enhancements (ok)

That is what I was going with. But I am sure they will just add the same play as to this card as they did to highway, trust, etc.

Maybe I should have just started playing the darn deck instead of asking for permission. after all, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:53:54 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 07, 2011, 07:58:33 PM

Maybe I should have just started playing the darn deck instead of asking for permission. after all, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

You did the right thing by asking. Rather to find out now, rather than get ruled against when you get to a big tourney and have it be too late to get a different deck ready.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:48:25 PM »

I'm not sure why Matt is giving up on this idea yet (other than past experience). From what I've read on here, they are not changing Visions yet so this might currently work.

Even if the play as/errata listed was official then it might still be possible.
I'm not sure the current cards would actually do this but if you could protect a hero in battle from withdraw and make that CBI (like the teal disciples card) then it would work. You start with that hero, band in a 2nd hero, play enhancements that don't match the 1st heros brigade, then play Visions to get back your enhancements and band again to repeat.

I'm not able to look through all the relevant cards right now to see if any will do that yet, but I'd guess that within a couple sets there will be cards that do that.

It still doesn't seem right to me that they are willing to let Visions of Iddo the Seer work as it is until someone figures out a way to do more with it then they thought it should. If they are so determined to close all loops then why not change all those cards now instead of waiting for someone to use it.

crustpope · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2011, 12:48:59 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 07, 2011, 11:48:25 PM

I'm not sure why Matt is giving up on this idea yet (other than past experience).

this is basically, it. I kinda didnt want to make it only to get it nerfed at Nats, plus, while I dont agree with the interpretation, some might say it is a cost/benefit card and that if I dont withraw the hero, I dont get my cards back. I dont agree with that but that is what I wanted to clarify

Quote

It still doesn't seem right to me that they are willing to let Visions of Iddo the Seer work as it is until someone figures out a way to do more with it then they thought it should. If they are so determined to close all loops then why not change all those cards now instead of waiting for someone to use it.

Yeah, it would make sense to give them all the same eratta so that they all work as they want them to work (ie. kill the red dragon/potw/garrison stalemate battle) leaving Visions of Iddo alone was an invitation to crack it....well it was an invitation for ME to crack it

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2011, 01:36:12 PM »

Which is the correct errata? The one on the boards doesn't match the one from the REG.

crustpope · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2011, 12:03:59 AM »

The correct eratta is the one that is NOT like Highway, trust, etc. They specifically left visions of Iddo the Seer out because it was worded differently. It seems like it is an easy fix if they want to do it...they just lump Visions of Iddo the Seer in with the other return to hand cards.

IF they do, then i will put as my signature line that "I broke the game with Visions of Iddo the Seer"

and until they do I am going to keep building and perfecting this "dangerous" deck.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #21 on:** March 09, 2011, 11:07:49 AM »

Quote

and until they do I am going to keep building and perfecting this "dangerous" deck.

fells like a waste of time to me...u could call it a hobby

but seriously I dont see why they would allow it but i hope they do. It just seems a different way to recieve the same result. A result that they dont want in the game no matter how much it makes since and should work, goes against the main purpose. Fun and Fellowship.

I guess every deck I build will not work, even though alot of games I play I hear comments like "That was the most epic game ever" and whatnot. I tend to play hand control because its a challenge to me to usually reach that gamestate but then I am punished because it isnt fun for my opponent. Oh well. I just want to say that I very much disapprove of decks where my opponent chooses thier own immune EC to block and plays alot of search cards to achieve some sort of lock or discard my deck. I do love piloting them though. :p

Red · « **Reply #22 on:** March 09, 2011, 11:12:52 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 09, 2011, 11:07:49 AM

Quote
and until they do I am going to keep building and perfecting this "dangerous" deck.

fells like a waste of time to me...u could call it a hobby but seriously I dont see why they would allow it but i hope they do. It just seems a different way to recieve the same result. A result that they dont want in the game no matter how much it makes since and should work, goes against the main purpose. Fun and Fellowship. I guess every deck I build will not work, even though alot of games I play I hear comments like "That was the most epic game ever" and whatnot. I tend to play hand control because its a challenge to me to usually reach that gamestate but then I am punished because it isnt fun for my opponent. Oh well. I just want to say that I very much disapprove of decks where my opponent chooses thier own immune EC to block and plays alot of search cards to achieve some sort of lock or discard my deck. I do love piloting them though. :p

Sorry Clift that's an oxymoron. BTW break the game with visions and I'll send you a cookie.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #23 on:** March 09, 2011, 11:18:49 AM »

call it what you will sir-

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 09, 2011, 03:43:03 PM »

Quote from: Red on March 09, 2011, 11:12:52 AM

Sorry Clift that's an oxymoron. BTW break the game with visions and I'll send you a cookie.

It not a matter of breaking the game with visions. He broke it with Highway, and currently Visions lets him do basically the same thing, just with a different card. So send him that cookie!

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Author Topic: Visions of Iddo the Seer (Read 6551 times)