Author Topic: Negating a Prevent  (Read 2869 times)

Offline EmJayBee83

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 5484
  • Ha! It's funny because the squirrel gets dead.
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • mjb Games
Negating a Prevent
« on: September 07, 2011, 08:31:14 AM »
0
Here is a question that arose on a different thread, but I want to give it its own spot because it has major game play repercussions...

You make a rescue with some White dude and I block with Black. You have initiative and play Blessings. Initiative passes to me and I play Wrath of Satan.  I still have initiative and play Bringing Fear. Are all the heroes in play wiped out?

According to your logic above... When Bringing Fear was played, it Negated the Good Negate, and now Wrath of Satan, not having been negated, takes effect.

That is correct from my understanding.

My understanding is that (since Wrath of Satan was prevented when it was played) it would not activate at some later time when the card preventing it is negated.

Chronic Apathy

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 09:31:22 AM »
0
Hm, I'm not sure about this. Logic dictates that Wrath of Satan would then activate, since it's no longer being negated/prevented. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that there's some game rule where if an enhancement is prevented, even if the prevention is negated, it still can't activate. So basically, logic dictates it's one way, so there's probably some wacky game rule that makes it the other. Sorry I could be absolutely no help.

Offline SomeKittens

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 8102
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM »
0
The explanation I've heard is that cards only activate once.  If they're prevented (i.e. stopped before they activate) they can't activate again.

The best example I've seen is Tower of Thebez.  If it's occupied, and my EC's are Cannanite, my opponent's hero will be negated upon rescuing.  If I then block with a non-Cannanite, Tower no longer works, but the rescuing hero does not have it's ability activate.  If another hero is then banded into battle, their ability will activate.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
Code: [Select]
postcount.add(1);

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 10:15:33 AM »
0
That's a bad example, because Tower is not being negated, simply not negating from the point the EC leaves onward. If Tower were up and occupied and you attacked with Matthew and played MLaMG on Tower, I'd say that you get to D3 and band at that point.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline SomeKittens

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 8102
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 10:24:28 AM »
0
It's a fine example.  Tower's no longer negating heroes, but the original hero does not activate.

/Though I'd certainly rule against one banding with an un-gathered Matthew.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
Code: [Select]
postcount.add(1);

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 10:28:27 AM »
0
There's a difference between an ability being negated and simply turned off via a condition no longer being met.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline SomeKittens

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 8102
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 10:29:31 AM »
0
Can I get an example where that would make a difference?  (Tired right now, could be missing something)
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
Code: [Select]
postcount.add(1);

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 10:34:01 AM »
0
The Tower of Thebez example.

Here's another one. RA Eve, blocked by a 6/6 EC to play Numerous as the Stars bringing in Zeb drawing up to 5 cards. EC plays Wrath. Eve is Discarded but Zeb Ignores. Zeb then plays Buying Grain, drawing up to 6 cards. The EC is no longer being ignored, but the ignore wasn't negated so Zeb doesn't die from Wrath.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline SomeKittens

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 8102
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 10:35:18 AM »
0
Right, one can't re-target after targets have been selected.  But that's targeting, not negating.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
Code: [Select]
postcount.add(1);

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 10:37:15 AM »
0
You can target an ignoring card, it just won't do anything. Protect effects what is being targeted, not ignore or immunity.

Zeb was targeted by Wrath, and would die from it if his ignore were negated, but it was just turned off.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline SomeKittens

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 8102
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 10:40:23 AM »
0
So you would rule that if I then played Bringing Fear, Zeb would be discarded?
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
Code: [Select]
postcount.add(1);

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 12:17:08 PM »
0
That is correct.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 02:30:47 PM »
+1
That is not correct. In the situation above, playing Bringing Fear after Wrath of Satan would not cause Zeb to be discarded. Wrath of Satan is an instant ability (discard), therefore it cannot discard anything further after it resolves, and when it resolves Zeb is in a state of ignoring it.

The only way playing Bringing Fear after WoS could possibly discard an ignoring Zeb is if Zeb (for whatever reason) interrupted Wrath and then you played a black interrupt/play next and played Bringing Fear.

As far as I know, MJB is correct in saying that abilities activate once and if they are negated/prevented at that point then they don't activate or reactivate later.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 02:33:20 PM by browarod »

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 02:41:33 PM »
0
And as far as I know, he is not correct.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 02:54:48 PM »
0
I know I'm right about the Zeb/WoS/BF question. Zeb's ignore is active when WoS resolves, so he cannot be discarded by it even if you negate his ability later (unless, as I said, you interrupt WoS before negating Zeb).

Offline SomeKittens

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 8102
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 04:03:22 PM »
0
I've always played it the way browarod stated.  Instant abilities are, well, instant.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
Code: [Select]
postcount.add(1);

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 05:56:29 PM »
0
And I've always played it the way I'm describing, and I know I'm right. See a pattern here? This will take an elder ruling.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline STAMP

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • *****
  • Posts: 5014
  • Redemption brings Freedom
    • -
    • Northwest Region
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2011, 06:04:36 PM »
+1
This is a case of targeting.  The REG should distinguish between instant and ongoing targeting.  It doesn't.  So here lies a mess.

In my humble opinion, Wrath does not work in the example given because it is an instant targeting ability as opposed to an ongoing targeting ability.

Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 06:21:52 PM »
0
Actually, it's not a targeting matter, it's an instant ability matter. WoS is instant, it can only discard heroes when it resolves, no other time. Zeb is ignoring when it resolves, therefore he is not discarded. That's it for WoS, it's done. It doesn't care how the battle progresses from there unless someone interrupts or negates it. It has nothing to do with targeting in this case.

And I've always played it the way I'm describing, and I know I'm right. See a pattern here? This will take an elder ruling.
WoS is an instant ability. It is not ongoing, it does not have a delayed trigger, it's just a plain discard. What possible reason do you have to justify that an instant ability with no other conditions can discard twice at two different points in a battle?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 06:24:01 PM by browarod »

Offline Minister Polarius

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15920
  • Grand Minister of Music and Video Games
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • Macclelland Music
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2011, 08:55:09 PM »
0
Because if the ignore is negated, Zeb wasn't ignoring Wrath when it was played.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

  • Covenant Games
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • *****
  • Posts: 5373
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Covenant Games
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2011, 09:01:03 PM »
+2
Wrath doesn't discard Zeb if you play Bringing Fear afterwards.

There's your Elder ruling for you.
www.covenantgames.com

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2011, 09:14:01 PM »
0
Because if the ignore is negated, Zeb wasn't ignoring Wrath when it was played.
But negating Zeb's ability doesn't magically rewind the battle to before WoS was played. It activated, it discarded, and it's done.

Wrath doesn't discard Zeb if you play Bringing Fear afterwards.

There's your Elder ruling for you.
Thank you.

Offline lightningninja

  • Trade Count: (+19)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5397
  • I'm Watchful Servant, and I'm broken.
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2011, 11:14:56 PM »
0
I don't believe the issue is about time of activation and re-activation, but rather targeting. I believe Wrath CAN reactivate (I could be wrong), but it won't re-assess targets. It targets characters once, and that's it. So if it is then NOT negated and activates later, it will activate (once again, I'm not 100% positive) but only destroy the characters it would have already discarded if it had activated the first time.

If it enters play already negated, I'm not sure how that'd work as I'm not sure if it technically chose targets, since it was negated.
As a national champion, I support ReyZen deck pouches.

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2011, 11:25:11 PM »
0
It doesn't reactivate because nothing stopped it from activating the first time. It activated, it chose all non-protected targets, and it discarded all heroes not ignoring or immune to it. It's done, finished, there is no "reactivation" of it regardless of what happens later in the battle (except, as I said, in the case of it being interrupted).

Offline TheJaylor

  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3115
  • Fortress Alstad
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Redemption with Jayden
Re: Negating a Prevent
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2011, 11:28:06 PM »
0
I agree. When the discard happens, it happens. It doesn't re-happen just because something new happened. You can look "discard" up in the REG and it will tell you that it's an instant ability.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal