Author Topic: How does Household Idols Work? (Read 2385 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **on:** July 22, 2013, 02:03:48 AM »

Play-As "Banding of Heroes is prevented. Good banding cards are ignored."

First off, I just really don't get how an artifact can ignore characters. Ignore deals primarily with an ignoring card and all cards ignored, and yet the ignoring card is an...artifact? It just seems ridiculous. How can an inanimate object ignore me?

It's pretty clear that there were no multiple abilities pre-Kings, and the way HHI is worded makes it seem like a clarifier, not two separate abilities. This would essentially just prevent banding, which would still be pretty good.

Also, what does it mean "Good banding cards are ignored"? You can't ignore an enhancement, and yet the way this is worded seems like it's trying to.

Finally, suppose I negate HHI, and then band in a Hero with a banding ability. My opponent discards my original hero, and negates my enhancement that got rid of HHI. I discard my opponent's character. Do I win the battle? I would assume no, since ignore treats ignored characters as though they are not in battle during Battle Resolution, and my hero is indeed ignored, but then consider the flip side of that. I play an evil enhancement that grants me ignore abilities against the hero, let's say Wildness. My opponent then plays AotL. Because ignore is ongoing, the character is still ignored even though there's no evil character in battle. Does this mean the hero still doesn't get the lost soul?

As an aside, interrupt the battle interrupts Household Idols because it's ongiong, even though it's not in battle, correct?

As another aside, shouldn't repel actually mean withdraw, and not ignore? Looking up all these definitions reminded me about that. Seems odd, but if idols can ignore me, then I don't know what to believe anymore.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2013, 09:08:10 AM »

The "ignore" stops FBTNB. That's all you ever need know...

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:32:06 AM »

Quote from: Westy on July 22, 2013, 02:03:48 AM

Play-As "Banding of Heroes is prevented. Good banding cards are ignored."

First off, I just really don't get how an artifact can ignore characters. Ignore deals primarily with an ignoring card and all cards ignored, and yet the ignoring card is an...artifact? It just seems ridiculous. How can an inanimate object ignore me?

It's odd, to be sure, but the wording on the card "Good banding cards have no effect" is worded the same way as some of the other cards that mean "ignored", which is why it gets that ability. "Have no effect" may be a better way to phrase the idea of an Artifact ignoring a character, but since it would essentially do the same thing as "ignore" it wouldn't make sense to have it as a separate ability.

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It's pretty clear that there were no multiple abilities pre-Kings, and the way HHI is worded makes it seem like a clarifier, not two separate abilities. This would essentially just prevent banding, which would still be pretty good.

It actually would not be that good. It would stop FBTNB decks, but it's pretty obvious now (as Martin could tell you) that FBTNB is dead.

It would cease to stop Isaiah+Angels, Daniel, Philip+Bart, Samuel+David, etc.

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Also, what does it mean "Good banding cards are ignored"? You can't ignore an enhancement, and yet the way this is worded seems like it's trying to.

You absolutely can ignore enhancements, just not in the same way that you ignore characters. If a character is ignoring enhancements, then those enhancements can't affect it via numbers or SA (even though they can enter battle to be played). It doesn't really matter for HHI as much, but if there was an enhancement with a banding ability that also had an ability that affected HHI, the second ability wouldn't work.

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Finally, suppose I negate HHI, and then band in a Hero with a banding ability. My opponent discards my original hero, and negates my enhancement that got rid of HHI. I discard my opponent's character. Do I win the battle? I would assume no, since ignore treats ignored characters as though they are not in battle during Battle Resolution, and my hero is indeed ignored, but then consider the flip side of that. I play an evil enhancement that grants me ignore abilities against the hero, let's say Wildness. My opponent then plays AotL. Because ignore is ongoing, the character is still ignored even though there's no evil character in battle. Does this mean the hero still doesn't get the lost soul?

In the first case you are correct. In the second case, I think you may be correct, but I'm honestly not sure, because I haven't seen an EC ignore a Hero in ages.

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As an aside, interrupt the battle interrupts Household Idols because it's ongiong, even though it's not in battle, correct?

No. Just like interrupt the battle doesn't interrupt protect forts or Caesarea Phillipi. ItB only interrupts ongoing abilities in battle, in addition to the other stuff.

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As another aside, shouldn't repel actually mean withdraw, and not ignore? Looking up all these definitions reminded me about that. Seems odd, but if idols can ignore me, then I don't know what to believe anymore.

It could have been defined to mean withdraw, but it has meant the same thing as ignore (just for ECs vs. Heroes) ever since it came out. It hasn't been used on any cards since Priests, and the playtesters have no plans to put it on future cards. There was an idea to make a post-battle played ignore enhancement withdraw the characters, but it was determined that would make ignore even more powerful (since it would cease to give the opponent infinite initiative).

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:35:27 AM »

Okay, so HHI really wouldn't be as good. You didn't address the idea that there were no multiple abilities before Kings. I'm curious how we rationalize HHI as the exception, and not as a clarifier.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:53:35 AM »

Quote from: Westy on July 22, 2013, 10:35:27 AM

Okay, so HHI really wouldn't be as good. You didn't address the idea that there were no multiple abilities before Kings. I'm curious how we rationalize HHI as the exception, and not as a clarifier.

My guess is that it's because the "clarifier" is worded the same way as an actual ability. I also would dispute the idea of no multiple abilities before Kings, as Reach and Words both have multiple abilities.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2013, 06:49:54 PM »

Just to clarify on the ignore vs repel part, HHI does not grant ignoring status to any cards. That is the part of the ability that is the battle-winning component (ignore and immune to the EC, or repel and immune to the hero). Rather, HHI triggers the component of ignore that targets the battle itself, restricting the ignored characters from entering.

So, if you somehow got HHI activated mid-battle, any characters already in battle would suffer no ill-effect whatsoever. It wouldn't affect them, or how they affect other cards. It would stop any other ignored characters from entering battle, just not the ones already there.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2013, 07:22:53 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 22, 2013, 06:49:54 PM

So, if you somehow got HHI activated mid-battle, any characters already in battle would suffer no ill-effect whatsoever. It wouldn't affect them, or how they affect other cards. It would stop any other ignored characters from entering battle, just not the ones already there.

Is this really true?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2013, 07:42:40 PM »

Okay, so supposing my banding character does get in while HHI is up (through using the methods above), can I still kill my opponent's evil character with enhancements, or are they protected too?

Chris · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2013, 09:54:14 PM »

Are there any other artifacts, forts, sites, etc. that are also affected by the way Household Idols works (TGT grants characters the ability to ignore)? If not, I believe we should seriously consider changing the rules so that only characters and enhancements can ignore. I feel like Ignore is already one of the most complicated abilities in the game, and having read this and other topics, I still have zero idea how or why HHI works the way it does. It would be significantly easier and simpler to just change the rules here.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2013, 09:56:27 PM »

Quote from: Chris on July 22, 2013, 09:54:14 PM

Are there any other artifacts, forts, sites, etc. that are also affected by the way Household Idols works (TGT grants characters the ability to ignore)? If not, I believe we should seriously consider changing the rules so that only characters and enhancements can ignore. I feel like Ignore is already one of the most complicated abilities in the game, and having read this and other topics, I still have zero idea how or why HHI works the way it does. It would be significantly easier and simpler to just change the rules here.

Enhancements can't really ignore. Only characters should be able to ignore, but other cards should be able to grant characters the ability to ignore.

Red · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:16:49 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 22, 2013, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on July 22, 2013, 06:49:54 PM
So, if you somehow got HHI activated mid-battle, any characters already in battle would suffer no ill-effect whatsoever. It wouldn't affect them, or how they affect other cards. It would stop any other ignored characters from entering battle, just not the ones already there.

Is this really true?

That ruling was made for a reason. Reason being HT+Meal in Emmaus+HHI with a banding prophet could create broken scenarios in Type two.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:19:19 PM »

Here is my understanding of how HHI and ignore works:

First of all Ignore means (sort of anyway, don't take this as official rules, but as an explanation):
1: Ignoring cards are protected from ignored cards.
2: Ignored cards are protected from Ignoring cards.
3: Ignored characters cannot enter battle.
4: Ignored evil characters do not stop heroes from rescuing a lost soul.

HHI makes heroes ignored, but does not make any evil characters ignore, so only 3 is actually meaningful in most cases.

SirNobody · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:20:59 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 22, 2013, 07:22:53 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on July 22, 2013, 06:49:54 PM
So, if you somehow got HHI activated mid-battle, any characters already in battle would suffer no ill-effect whatsoever. It wouldn't affect them, or how they affect other cards. It would stop any other ignored characters from entering battle, just not the ones already there.
Is this really true?

No it is not. Household Idols works just like any other ignore card out there. As the REG says there are 4 parts to ignore:

Quote from: REG

1. it grants the ignoring card immunity to all cards being ignored
2. it grants the ignored cards immunity to the ignoring card
3. characters not in battle and ignored cannot enter battle (i.e., you cannot choose to bring them into battle and they cannot be targeted by an ability that would bring them into battle)
4. characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of determining battle outcome

In the case of Household Idols (1) and (2) are pretty much irrelevant because there's virtually no way for a good banding card to target Household Idols and Household Idols doesn't do anything to good banding cards other than ignoring them.
But (3) and (4) work for Household Idols the same way they work for The Garden Tomb or Reuben's Torn Clothes.

Quote from: Westy on July 22, 2013, 02:03:48 AM

I play an evil enhancement that grants me ignore abilities against the hero, let's say Wildness. My opponent then plays AotL. Because ignore is ongoing, the character is still ignored even though there's no evil character in battle. Does this mean the hero still doesn't get the lost soul?

No. A character must remain in battle for it to ignore another character. In this case, when the evil character that is ignoring is removed from battle the hero ceases to be ignored. (This is the one major instance where HHI and other ignore cards differ, since HHI does not ignore through a character it can ignore while not being in battle while other ignore cards require the character in battle for the ignore to have any effect.)

Quote from: Westy on July 22, 2013, 07:42:40 PM

Okay, so supposing my banding character does get in while HHI is up (through using the methods above), can I still kill my opponent's evil character with enhancements, or are they protected too?

You can kill your opponent's evil character.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2013, 12:42:50 AM »

Quote from: Ignore Rules via REG

An ignore special ability is an ability that keeps its targets from targeting or being targeted by a specified set of cards. It also allows a character using an ignore ability to win a battle regardless of normal battle conditions.

1. it grants the ignoring card immunity to all cards being ignored
2. it grants the ignored cards immunity to the ignoring card
3. characters not in battle and ignored cannot enter battle (i.e., you cannot choose to bring them into battle and they cannot be targeted by an ability that would bring them into battle)
4. characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of determining battle outcome
An ignore ability is ongoing. Part (1) above targets the cards that gain the ignore status. Parts (2) and (4) above target the cards that are ignored. Part (3) above has no target.

 Ignore abilities last until the end of the phase in which they are used.
 Ignore abilities only apply to cards of a different alignment.

Nothing here seems to indicate that a character needs to be in battle to ignore another character. There is a brief mention that they can use an ignore ability to win the battle, but not that it needs to be in battle. I understand that artifacts can't win battles so that logic doesn't apply to HHI, but I don't see why the current definition needs a character to be in battle to ignore. Doesn't TGT still protect TGT characters in territory from ignored ecs?

Drrek · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2013, 01:03:02 AM »

Quote from: Westy on July 23, 2013, 12:42:50 AM

Doesn't TGT still protect TGT characters in territory from ignored ecs?

yes TGT protects in territory

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #15 on:** July 23, 2013, 07:46:16 AM »

Then for that matter, why do you even need a TGT character in battle to stop them from going into battle? It's clear that the ec is ignored in territory, and part of the definition of ignore is that an ignored card can't enter battle. This is the case with HHI as well.

Would it be so bad to remove part 3 of the definition? It would certainly balance TGT as well as HHI. I want to be able to rescue with my MTM'd Gibeonite Delegates!

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** July 23, 2013, 10:36:45 AM »

Quote from: Westy on July 23, 2013, 07:46:16 AM

Then for that matter, why do you even need a TGT character in battle to stop them from going into battle? It's clear that the ec is ignored in territory, and part of the definition of ignore is that an ignored card can't enter battle. This is the case with HHI as well.

I can't believe I never noticed that before.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #17 on:** July 23, 2013, 01:29:49 PM »

If a Character is doing the ignoring, it has to be in battle to keep the ignored character out. Because HHI is not making a character ignore it works without a character in battle.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 23, 2013, 03:08:36 PM »

The TGT character still does the ignoring ie they cannot be discarded by Wrath of Satan if there is only one black ec out... But Christian Soldier is right a tgt character has to been in battle in order for the evil character to be unable to block.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #19 on:** July 23, 2013, 03:14:01 PM »

Quote from: Westy on July 23, 2013, 07:46:16 AM

Then for that matter, why do you even need a TGT character in battle to stop them from going into battle?

A couple years ago this was answered in relation to RTC. Feel free to go find that thread.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #20 on:** July 23, 2013, 05:48:22 PM »

I think it makes sense that a character has to be in battle, but that isn't listed in the current rules. Something needs to be changed. Normally, the special ability has to activate, and that's why the character needs to be in battle, but TGT and HHI are always active.

asrgimli · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2013, 08:28:30 AM »

So for The Garden Tomb, do you think an Errata/Play as of "If opponent has a Redeemed Soul, then Salome, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Peter, John, and Mary the Mother of James gain the ability 'Hero ignores all evil brigades that do not have at least two Characters in play, cannot be negated.'" would be better? This way, it is definitely the Hero that is doing the ignoring and not some card outside of battle? I guess my concern with this is that I'm unsure if that would make TGT CBN. I do agree, however, that I think it makes more sense for characters to do the ignoring instead of cards outside of battle. I think it's possible to make HHI do what it's intended to do without using the term "ignore", but for now, I feel that I understand what it does so I'm not overly concerned about it.

Chris · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2013, 11:31:02 AM »

Quote from: asrgimli on July 24, 2013, 08:28:30 AM

So for The Garden Tomb, do you think an Errata/Play as of "If opponent has a Redeemed Soul, then Salome, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Peter, John, and Mary the Mother of James gain the ability 'Hero ignores all evil brigades that do not have at least two Characters in play, cannot be negated.'" would be better? This way, it is definitely the Hero that is doing the ignoring and not some card outside of battle? I guess my concern with this is that I'm unsure if that would make TGT CBN. I do agree, however, that I think it makes more sense for characters to do the ignoring instead of cards outside of battle. I think it's possible to make HHI do what it's intended to do without using the term "ignore", but for now, I feel that I understand what it does so I'm not overly concerned about it.

TGT characters are already the ones doing the ignoring. There's absolutely no need for an errata to TGT; especially one that makes TGT CBN.

asrgimli · « **Reply #23 on:** July 24, 2013, 02:42:20 PM »

I thought that was how it worked, but I was getting confused by the discussion on this board. Sounded like some think TGT is doing the ignoring instead of the characters. I was just trying to figure out how that could be fixed if that was the case, but I totally agree that making TGT CBN would be awful, and I would not like having to do a fix like that. Glad it's not needed.

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Author Topic: How does Household Idols Work? (Read 2385 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chris

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

browarod

TheHobbit13

Rawrlolsauce!

Warrior_Monk

Chris