Author Topic: Endless exchange?  (Read 255 times)

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Endless exchange?
« on: July 12, 2020, 09:32:54 AM »
+1
In T2 could i endlessly exchange 2 copies of consider the lillies for eachother? Nothing in the ability stops this, just wondering if there is a game rule against such a thing, as this would allow a daniel deck to endlessly shuffle and eventually draw out all of their daniel cards with fortelling angel

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 09:49:19 AM »
0
In T2 could i endlessly exchange 2 copies of consider the lillies for eachother? Nothing in the ability stops this, just wondering if there is a game rule against such a thing, as this would allow a daniel deck to endlessly shuffle and eventually draw out all of their daniel cards with fortelling angel

 :o ::) :) ;)
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 01:48:53 PM »
+1
You'd eventually run into the time limits, and would definitely get a judge called to make sure you stay within them. Depending on what else you're doing, you'd probably be able to do it about once per turn pretty easily.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 03:35:13 PM »
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Until we printed Foretelling Angel I would have ruled this illegal, because it wasn't progressing the game state. Now that Foretelling exists, if you have one in play I would rule this legal, though as Aggie points out you'll have time issues
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Offline Kor

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 05:43:06 PM »
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Could you show the combo and shorthand it to just take the daniel cards you want?
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 06:04:26 PM »
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Could you show the combo and shorthand it to just take the daniel cards you want?

I doubt it since it's non deterministic. At least in other games I've played, combos that are deterministic can usually be shorthanded by demonstrating a loop. But since this does have a chance to fail to put a daniel card on top and can't say how many times it would take to take all the daniel cards out of the deck it cant really be shortcutted.

At least in MTG stuff like that basically results in a slow play warning.

So while technically it can progress the game state it probably should be illegal since it can't deterministically say it will advance the game state.

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 06:31:24 PM »
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This is an interesting combo I might have to play around with. And while getting a ton of cards into my hand is nice, it's also nice being able to essentially guarantee the top card of my deck is always Daniel when I go in for an attack.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 07:04:41 PM »
0
Until we printed Foretelling Angel I would have ruled this illegal, because it wasn't progressing the game state. Now that Foretelling exists, if you have one in play I would rule this legal, though as Aggie points out you'll have time issues
Speaking of time issues... If I shuffle and my opponent exercises their option to shuffle my deck after my shuffle is complete, does the time it takes my opponent  to reshuffle count against my phase time limit?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 06:40:37 AM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 07:22:45 AM »
+1
I think this combo should be illeagle as its exploits some grey areas in the rules and has potential to allow someone to legitimately time stall someone, which is like the worst way to play and no fun for anyone.  Either errata lillies (and a soldiers prayer and any other cards that can do this) so they cant exchange for themselves or make it a game rule a card cant search for another copy of itself

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 11:40:00 AM »
0
I think this combo should be illeagle as its exploits some grey areas in the rules and has potential to allow someone to legitimately time stall someone, which is like the worst way to play and no fun for anyone.
If you are truly worried about time stalling, Kor has already posted the solution. Just ask your opponent what their final desired state is ("six Daniel characters in hand, and one face up on top of the deck", for example) and just let them do that.*

If your opponent cannot describe their preferred final state then the play truly is nothing more than a stall. At that point the judge can DQ'ed them immediately for it and save you the time of playing a sloggy game. 

Boom! In either case you are done with this combo in less than 15 seconds.

*And if you don't want to allow them to advance the game state then you are making the choice of "the worst way to play and no fun for anyone."
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 11:45:04 AM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 12:39:11 PM »
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I dont think it would be fair to let someone decide what their final state would be and just go to that because you could shuffle and play out this combo for the full time limit and never hit that perfect final state  you want.  Its not a given you will ever reach it, so you cant fairly say that you would ever get it.  You are basically holding your opponent hostage at that point, given them the option to either give you exactly what you want or they let you run out the clock through shuffeling until you maybe get it.

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 12:53:14 PM »
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I think this combo should be illeagle as its exploits some grey areas in the rules and has potential to allow someone to legitimately time stall someone, which is like the worst way to play and no fun for anyone.  Either errata lillies (and a soldiers prayer and any other cards that can do this) so they cant exchange for themselves or make it a game rule a card cant search for another copy of itself

So it isn't in the Reg, but I do believe there used to be a ruling similar to this.  I think you should be allowed to do it once.  During one game I used CtL and found that only other copies of that card were in my deck.  I then switched it for that copy and used it to search my discard instead.

Of course this is under the special conditions:
*An exchange effect requires targets on both ends of the exchange. If a valid target for one end of the exchange
is not found, the effect does nothing.

So if that was to be made a ruling then I can see you not being able to exchange for the same card.

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 01:33:28 PM »
0
Quote
a.) Draw phase, upkeep phase and preparation phase: [90 seconds] The Player has 90 seconds to draw 3 cards, take actions they wish prior to the battle phase, and place a hero in the Field of Battle. If the player has not placed a hero in the Field of Battle within 90 seconds then the player forfeits his battle phase for that turn and skips to step 3 (discard phase).
c.) Discard Phase: [90 seconds] Following the conclusion of the rescue attempt. The Player now has 90 seconds to set cards aside, place characters into his territory, play dominant cards, and discard cards. If the player has not reduced his hand down to eight cards or less by the time the 90 seconds have elapsed the opponent to the player’s left shall randomly discard cards from the player’s hand down to eight cards.
d.) Searching: [30 seconds per 50 cards] If a player uses an ability that includes a search of the deck, Reserve, discard pile or banish pile that player is allowed 30 seconds per 50 cards in that pile. During the course of a search ability, the time allowed for the phase is paused until the completion of the ability. - Note: Time does not accumulate from previous turn stages. Any remaining seconds from a previous stage are lost. - If a ruling question is asked the judge may decide to allow for additional time during the phase or game at his discretion. Additionally, the phase time is paused if necessary while the judge deliberates - The judge shall warn a player if they believe a player is only asking a question to stall for time.
This is from the hosting guide. This is not in the rulebook or the REG. So the only rule out there legally allows the player to Consider and then reconsider their Lillies all day. Legally, a judge could rule against this as they have ultimate say at their tournament, but that is tough to overrule an actual legal rule. That gets dicey real quick, although I would agree with the judge that this style of play, although very cool, diminishes gameplay and discourages friendly gameplay. Although I like the play and think this is a brilliant way to set up Foretelling Angel, if I was the judge then I would set a time limit simply fore the fact that the player can attack one turn, get out their SoG/TSC, and legally stall 3-0.
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Offline Sean

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 02:08:02 PM »
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I feel like the hand limit and the phase time limit of 90 seconds would make it so that you could really only do this once or twice before you got stuck with hand clog and/or run out of time to start a battle.  Yes, you can draw quickly through the deck but a key strength of Foretelling Angel is the CBN of Daniel cards so you also don't really want your deck to be empty and you also don't want a deck of no Daniel cards left.  Once the player doing this gets their Daniel band out, they'd only do this until they get a Daniel card on top.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 02:13:06 PM »
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Consider the Lilies is not an exchange, it's a take and shuffle. I'm pretty sure you can shuffle it even if you don't find a target.

Any rule that addresses this needs to be more robust than just eliminating a card searching for another copy - the J deck can loop Ruth Meets Boaz and Gleaning the Fields through the discard pile.

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 02:31:07 PM »
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Sean, the phase time limit is paused while searching, so for this particular scenario it is essentially timeless, like the Beatles. As for hand clog, 16 is very generous now a days for so many dual type cards and TC cards. 16 offers a lot of flexibility in what you can keep in your hand and put down. 50 card deck, 7 lost souls, 43 cards left, assume that you draw at least 11 by the time you get this going just based off of turn 1 really and you have 32 cards left and 8-11 in your hand without putting anything down. around 20 characters in a deck so you have really no issues putting down anything and maintaining hand limit. But you are very correct about keeping a Daniel card on top to keep the band CBN, the thing is, like you mentioned, that band is very strong and if you have the ability to just keep legally shuffling your deck until you set it up how you want, then your band comes out early and you just leave a Daniel card on top. Like Marcus said, Consider is a take and shuffle but this is not that feasible of a situation and not likely. I would let it ride because chances are it won't really be played competitively but would be cool to see. Who knows.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 02:55:22 PM »
0
I dont think it would be fair to let someone decide what their final state would be and just go to that because you could shuffle and play out this combo for the full time limit and never hit that perfect final state  you want.
So you are free to choose to play what you consider a boring sloggy game.

I feel like the hand limit and the phase time limit of 90 seconds would make it so that you could really only do this once or twice before you got stuck with hand clog and/or run out of time to start a battle.
I am not sure a time limit helps. I am fairly certain that in a real game situation I could get off 15-20 iterations of this in any reasonable 90 second limit.

Offline Sean

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Re: Endless exchange?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 03:02:12 PM »
+1
I know the time for the phase stops while searching for CtL but once you finish the search, you then have to take the time to take each card off the top.  One.  At.  A.  Time. (more time off clock)  Then you have to take time to put cards down to their proper location once you get to 16. (more time off clock)

You also can't do this with a 50 card deck, it has to be 100 or more.

Stalling is the opposite of the goal of this combo though so in my mind, its more an issue of making sure the player using it doesn't get extra time that they shouldn't. 
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