Author Topic: Darius Decree (Read 26882 times)

The Schaef · « **Reply #175 on:** February 16, 2010, 06:53:52 PM »

By the way, here's another one I forgot to mention earlier:

Your claim:

Quote

I greatly prefer my definition, since it doesn't require keeping track of which artifacts have been activated or not.

Your example:

Quote

"Opponent can't play heroes, fortresses, or artifacts this round."

This example demonstrates nothing about how I need to keep track of which Artifacts have been activated or not.

I don't see a reason to treat Enhancements differently from other card types unless we want to make a distinction to account for the moment they are activated. In which case, activation becomes a key component of the definition, especially when it is the key difference in allowing cards to be played into the set-aside area.

I don't think a card should have to go "in play" to be played because then we break our Forts.

I am not of a strong opinion regarding whether multiple activations count as new "plays", I find it less problematic than the inverse, counting cards that are placed for storage rather than for use.

STAMP · « **Reply #176 on:** February 16, 2010, 07:13:32 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 05:50:33 PM

Scott, does a green weapon played immediately after Abel's Sacrifice gain CBI for the rest of the game?

According to current rules, it does not. Ongoing abilities like Abel's Sacrifice (which is discarded after it is used) stop giving their effects once the phase (or turn in this case) is over. It is not a permanent gain, like a set aside.

Are there any other suggestions for defining the moment when a card is played?

Should we just make the rule for "playing" enhancements separate from and completely different from the definition of "playing" for all other cards?

Should a card have to go "in play" in order to be considered "played."?

What do you think of the third option? Do we allow a card to be "played" multiple times without ever returning to hand, deck, or discard pile?

The answer to your first question is obviously no. But the reason may not be so obvious. Isn't it a game rule that allows the weapon to be retained? Does the game rule specify anything about the weapon being a gained ability? This may not be the best example for you to use.

So let's try another: does Sowing the Seed lose it's CBI status after the turn in which it is played following Abel's Sacrifice?

What if there were a green enhancement that read, "Place on an evil character. While this card remains, evil characters of the same brigade are ignored by opponent." Does it lose it's CBI status after the turn in which it is played following Abel's Sacrifice?

If you say that the Agur-placed enhancement was "played" (even though it hasn't activated yet), questions get asked like the ones I'm asking. According to the SA on Abel's Sacrifice, played means played. The placed enhancement starts off CBI but then because it doesn't activate it loses its CBI status? Do we replace your "paper-piercing" analogy? A bullet can start of being paper-piercing but then switch back? So since a bullet can switch then why can't I switch a bullet midstream from non-CBN to CBN? Even if you say that the bullet firing is when an SA activates, I still can come right back and say that the bullet I loaded into the gun in the first place was paper-piercing.

I'm not saying that I prefer one interpretation over the other, but I'm just here to ask some of the tough questions so that you all can make the best decisions.

Bryon · « **Reply #177 on:** February 16, 2010, 08:53:29 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 16, 2010, 06:53:52 PM

I am not of a strong opinion regarding whether multiple activations count as new "plays", I find it less problematic than the inverse, counting cards that are placed for storage rather than for use.

I am not strongly opposed to that either, and I find it less problematic than having to keep track of "first times."

Scott, after the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice and Sowing the Seed are both played, Abel's Sacrifice does nothing for it. Of course, the placement of Sowing the Seed already CBN after the phase in which is it placed. And the decrease/convert can't be negated after the phase in which it is completed (upkeep). But, if you could somehow play an interrupt during your upkeep phase, you would be able to interrupt it.

The Schaef · « **Reply #178 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:05:37 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 08:53:29 PM

I am not strongly opposed to that either, and I find it less problematic than having to keep track of "first times."

It's not really that hard to figure out. They're just sitting there on the table. After making the quip about how similar to your definition you so suddenly and surprisingly discovered it to be, it doesn't sound like it would be that hard for you either. You didn't even provide an example of something reasonable that would require such tracking.

Abel's Sacrifice doesn't have to do anything for it the turn after. It did it the turn OF.

SirNobody · « **Reply #179 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:21:37 PM »

Hey,

For the record, I haven't been (and will continue not to) reading this thread. It's been a busy few weeks and I just don't have time to read a 12 page thread.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #180 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:51:51 PM »

That's nice.

I agree, someone lmk when this is over. Schaef seems to be doing a pretty good job of promoting our position, and as long as Bryon doesn't frustrate him into submission this could probably go on for weeks. And to think I used to want to be a lawyer...

The Schaef · « **Reply #181 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:30:25 PM »

It won't go on for weeks.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #182 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:41:30 PM »

Months perhaps, but certainly not weeks.

STAMP · « **Reply #183 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:12:42 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 16, 2010, 08:53:29 PM

Quote from: The Schaef on February 16, 2010, 06:53:52 PM
I am not of a strong opinion regarding whether multiple activations count as new "plays", I find it less problematic than the inverse, counting cards that are placed for storage rather than for use.
I am not strongly opposed to that either, and I find it less problematic than having to keep track of "first times."

Scott, after the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice and Sowing the Seed are both played, Abel's Sacrifice does nothing for it. Of course, the placement of Sowing the Seed already CBN after the phase in which is it placed. And the decrease/convert can't be negated after the phase in which it is completed (upkeep). But, if you could somehow play an interrupt during your upkeep phase, you would be able to interrupt it.

The point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice knows nothing about the distinction between playing w/activation versus playing w/no activation. Thus, Abel's Sacrifice will work exactly the same whether it's Sowing the Seed or Agur-placed enhancement.

Abel's Sacrifice played
Sowing the Seed played and CBN
phase complete
new phase, is Sowing the Seed in play still? Yes, so Sowing the Seed continues to be CBN.

Abel's Sacrifice played
Agur-placed enhancement played and CBN
phase complete
new phase, is Agur-placed enhancement in play still? Yes, so Agur-placed enhancement continues to be CBN.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #184 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:23:17 PM »

Isn't that kind of a moot point anyway, as enhancements placed in a prior phase cannot be negated to begin with?

STAMP · « **Reply #185 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:31:35 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 16, 2010, 11:23:17 PM

Isn't that kind of a moot point anyway, as enhancements placed in a prior phase cannot be negated to begin with?

Different kind of "place".

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #186 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:33:44 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 16, 2010, 11:23:17 PM

Isn't that kind of a moot point anyway, as enhancements placed in a prior phase cannot be negated to begin with?

Yes and No. I prefer Abel's sac + placer. Since a card gains CBI/CBP/CBN when played by bryon's standards, Abel's sac + placer = CBN placed enh.

Bryon · « **Reply #187 on:** February 17, 2010, 12:06:44 AM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 16, 2010, 11:12:42 PM

The point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice knows nothing about the distinction between playing w/activation versus playing w/no activation. Thus, Abel's Sacrifice will work exactly the same whether it's Sowing the Seed or Agur-placed enhancement.

And the point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice never extends beyond the turn it was played and discarded. Once a card with an ongoing ability is discarded, its special ability lasts only until the end of that phase. It is the same for artifacts and forts that are discarded without being negated. Abel's Sacrifice does not grant ANY card CBI status for more than the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice is played and discarded.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #188 on:** February 17, 2010, 12:42:16 AM »

I agree with Bryon on the Abel's Sacrifice thing, I believe the ruling is that for cards abilities to be given permanently it has to specifically say something like "for the remainder of game" or "while it remains in play" or something like that, or just stay active (like artifacts or placed enhancements.

No character's ability to protect itself remains active after they've left battle (unless it said something about it specifically).

Master KChief · « **Reply #189 on:** February 17, 2010, 03:22:57 AM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on February 17, 2010, 12:42:16 AM

I agree with Bryon on the Abel's Sacrifice thing, I believe the ruling is that for cards abilities to be given permanently it has to specifically say something like "for the remainder of game" or "while it remains in play" or something like that, or just stay active (like artifacts or placed enhancements.

No character's ability to protect itself remains active after they've left battle (unless it said something about it specifically).

just, you know, judas...aaron...esther...

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #190 on:** February 17, 2010, 10:38:34 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 17, 2010, 12:06:44 AM

Quote from: STAMP on February 16, 2010, 11:12:42 PM
The point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice knows nothing about the distinction between playing w/activation versus playing w/no activation. Thus, Abel's Sacrifice will work exactly the same whether it's Sowing the Seed or Agur-placed enhancement.
And the point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice never extends beyond the turn it was played and discarded. Once a card with an ongoing ability is discarded, its special ability lasts only until the end of that phase. It is the same for artifacts and forts that are discarded without being negated. Abel's Sacrifice does not grant ANY card CBI status for more than the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice is played and discarded.

Then what about the rule once a card has CBI (etc.) or not CBI status that status can not be removed, tampered with, or added?

STAMP · « **Reply #191 on:** February 17, 2010, 11:50:12 AM »

Actually Bryon is correct. I had to go look in the REG in the "cannot be negated" section to verify. I thought that the rule said something about "cards still in play" after a phase completes. But it's pretty clear in the REG:

Quote from: REG

Other Abilities > Cannot be Negated
Default Conditions
• If a card does not have “cannot be negated” status when it is played, then it cannot gain it later.

• Special abilities completed on a previous turn cannot be negated.

Granted, the bolded REG entry is wrong for the reason it should say "phase" and not "turn", but the part that's important is that it says "Special abilities" and not "cards".

The Schaef · « **Reply #192 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:08:36 PM »

Wouldn't that be the special ability of Sacrifice, which granted CBI status to the card in that turn, and completed in the turn it was played, and therefore cannot be negated?

STAMP · « **Reply #193 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:38:36 PM »

Abel’s Sacrifice
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Abel's Sacrifice and all good enhancements played after it this turn may not be interrupted. • Play As: Abel’s Sacrifice and all good enhancements played after it this turn cannot be interrupted or prevented. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 4:4

You know, at this point I don't know what to think. AS gives the CBI to the ENTIRE enhancement, not just the special ability. The game rule only speaks to activated special abilities that continue past a completed phase. In this case it's a played card that continues past a completed phase. Hmmm, now I'm swinging back to what I initially proposed. At any rate, once it's decided it should be spelled out explicitly in the REG.

STAMP · « **Reply #194 on:** February 17, 2010, 07:42:22 PM »

FWIW, there are other card games that put cards on the table that aren't part of deck or discard yet aren't considered played.

Cribbage has a crib.
Pinochle has a kitty.

It's just hard for me to say that a card placed face down on the table from my hand is considered to be played.

I'll shut up for now.

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Author Topic: Darius Decree (Read 26882 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef