Ok, I'd say no as well, because it's not immediately activating.
i agree. I place cards into sh.
You cannot place a card WITHOUT a special ability.
3. Preparation Phase – You may perform any number of these actions in any order. Actions may be repeated unless a limit is stipulated:
a) Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
b) Place an artifact face down in your artifact pile.
c) Activate an artifact by placing an artifact face up on your artifact pile (limit once per turn).
d) Place a site into your territory.
e) Place a Lost Soul into a site.
f) Set aside a character.
g) Return a character from your set-aside area and place[/b] it back into your territory.
h) Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
i) Place a fortress on the table as described on the fortress. At this time its special ability becomes active.
j) Place or remove a card in a fortress as described on the fortress.
j) Place or remove a card in a fortress as described on the fortress.
A enhancement card is played when (a) it enters the field of play, or (b) it's ability is activated.Agreed. When you take a card from your hand and put it in play, that is called "playing" the card. If the card is going to stick around after the phase in which it is played, then it is ALSO called "placing" the card.
Thus Darius' Decree stops all three things mentioned in the original post of this thread.
Did it come from your hand? Did it go in play? That's it, really.
yes. yes.
Face down cards are not considered in play, right?
right. so why would a face-down card be considered 'played' if its not even in play?
Can I just say I love these types of discussion?
Fifteen years in and we have top tier judges debating the meaning of the verb "play." There is something so awesome about that.
What kind of judges are we, Matt? And can you define what the word 'is' means?I am a jolly old judge who does his best to muddle through the complexity of a game designed for the flexible minds of whippersnappers. Whenever I blow a call, I point to these discussions, shrug my shoulders, and say, "If the best minds in the game are just now deciding what 'play' means how can you expect me to rule correctly on your shiny new super-fantasti-insta-ca-bibbity-bobbity combo?"
i call SHENANIGANS!
When I heard "play an Enhancement on..." and then "Place an Enhancement on..." I used to think they meant two different things. Now they don't?If I understand Bryon correctly then they still mean 2 different things. "Place" is a subset of "Play", just as a "Babylonian" is a subset of "human". He seems to be saying that "Play" is just a word for putting a card down on the table (except in the discard pile). He seems to be saying that this "Playing" can be broken down into several subsets. One of those subsets is "Place" which puts the card in a specific location to be activated later.
"Subset" was not entirely accurate.So when my little brother asks why he can't play a card with his place hero because my card stops cards from being played. How do I explain this without confusing him? (Note he is 11) I mean I can wrap my head around what you're saying, but I know he wouldn't be able to.
Capture is not really a subset of "removal from battle," since you could also capture a character in a territory. What I meant to say about that (and you all understand it, really), is that capture and "removal from battle" mean DIFFERENT things, right? But they can both accurately describe what is happening to a card.
It is the same with Place and Play. They mean different things, but they can both accurately describe what is happening to a card.
So, does this mean I play and place enhancements on my characters in battle too?
In this case, can I use High Places to play enhancements that say Play as well, since they pretty much mean the same thing now?
So when my little brother asks why he can't play a card with his place hero because my card stops cards from being played. How do I explain this without confusing him? (Note he is 11) I mean I can wrap my head around what you're saying, but I know he wouldn't be able to.
It doesn't make sense to me that putting a card in Storehouse is "playing" a card rather than using the "place instead" ability that is printed on the Fortress itself.
Nor does it make sense that various other actions, for example inactive Artifacts, are considered "played" even though you're not putting them "in play" or even doing anything with them other than putting them in an out-of-play stack.
You say place and play mean different things, but the only difference you've cited is that discarding doesn't count as playing, which seems arbitrary because you count every other act of putting down a card as playing, even when it can be defined differently. The requirement to come from your hand now even seems to be in question.
Compare to defining play as either activating or putting "in play" by game rule. The rules clearly define when the various card types are activated, and they clearly define when you can just put a card "in play" without activating it. This also draws clear lines between place (putting a card somewhere) and play (using a card). Using special abilities, you can retrieve a card from discard pile and "place" it in hand or "place" it in territory, or "play" it in battle where it is activated. You can "place" a card in Storehouse by special ability, or "place" it in discard pile by game rule, or "play" it into your territory by game rule (assuming a character or weapon).
I feel that the difference is... When you play a card, it is almost ALWAYS done without the help of a special ability. You play characters into your territory from hand without abilities, play cards in battle due to initative rules, even play healing enhancements due to the rules. The only ability that lets you "play" a card is one that SAYS "play", such as ET.
Storehouse is an ability that lets you place the cards on it. I don't see how the two are the same. Play = putting a card into play from hand by game rule or a "play" ability. Place = done entirely by special ability. You cannot place a card WITHOUT a special ability.
So, I see Play as more of a game rule, with a few abilities that allow you to use that rule out of normal bounds, while Place is done entirely by special ability, and only involves the placement of a card into an area it normally is not allowed (such as into a territory or into a fortress)
I have no REG quotes to back me up, but I stand by this idea.
I also take exception to your claim that I'm doing anything here "rather than" the rules of Redemption. My appeal to broader definitions speaks only to conventions that players expect to remain consistent. I will not argue that discarding is "playing" and activating is "discarding" just because we can make rules that would call it that. Convention is a key component in making a game accessible.
That said, I am still defining place and play firmly within the context of these rules and these rules only. I simply think that it's easy enough for everyone to understand and distinguish if "placing" is putting a card somewhere and "playing" is actively using the card in some way, either by activation or by putting it "in play" where it can be the target of most effects.
Let's ALL playce our differences aside for a moment.
redemption1414 (11:36:47 AM): I can't make any fun half words. Well Phooey
lambodiablov (11:37:29 AM): playce
lambodiablov (11:37:44 AM): imma start using that term now
redemption1414 (11:37:55 AM): Eh, doesn't have the same weird sound I shoot for. But it works.
lambodiablov (11:38:02 AM): I COPYRIGHT IT... 25 cents anytime its used
If you PLACE a weapon in territory, it is played, but its special ability does not activate. Since it is placed, it sticks around after that phase.
As the weapon enters battle, its special ability activates. But the card was already played in a prior phase. If the weapon was placed, and then later DD was activated, then DD does nothing to the weapon as it enters battle. Why not? Because it is not being "played" at that moment. It was already played when it was placed on a previous turn.
Let's ALL playce our differences aside for a moment.
You totally just stole my joke:Quoteredemption1414 (11:36:47 AM): I can't make any fun half words. Well Phooey
lambodiablov (11:37:29 AM): playce
lambodiablov (11:37:44 AM): imma start using that term now
redemption1414 (11:37:55 AM): Eh, doesn't have the same weird sound I shoot for. But it works.
lambodiablov (11:38:02 AM): I COPYRIGHT IT... 25 cents anytime its used
I'll take my $0.25 now. :D
*edit*If you PLACE a weapon in territory, it is played, but its special ability does not activate. Since it is placed, it sticks around after that phase.
As the weapon enters battle, its special ability activates. But the card was already played in a prior phase. If the weapon was placed, and then later DD was activated, then DD does nothing to the weapon as it enters battle. Why not? Because it is not being "played" at that moment. It was already played when it was placed on a previous turn.
Wait wait wait wait a second... I've had it ruled that Proud Pharisee cannot play the next enhancement if a character with a weapon on him entered battle first, because the weapon was considered to have been played.
Putting something in the discard pile is always discarding... which is its own ability/action.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I never meant my last comment to be directed at you. I was refering to when Bryon was talking about common card terms, such as how a piece of cardstock is referred to as a card.
Yeah, and I totally agree with something like this, where the two can be similar, but there is a line drawn between the two. Some times both can happen together... Tclass enhs for example. First it would be played by game rule, and then its ability activates, which allows it to be placed (provided it has a place ability)
Any time you put a card from hand onto the table (other than discard pile), you are playing it.
If you PLACE a character in territory, it is played, but its special ability does not activate.
If you PLACE a weapon in territory, it is played, but its special ability does not activate...If the weapon was placed, and then later DD was activated, then DD does nothing to the weapon as it enters battle.
If you PLACE an enhancement in Storehouse, it is played, but its special ability does not activate. Since it is placed, it sticks around after that phase.
If you simply PLAY a territory class enhancement (that does not contain a place ability), then it is NOT placed. Its special ability DOES activate. Since it was NOT placed, then it does NOT stick around after that phase.
So, place and play are different, but not mutually exclusive. There is a lot of overlap.
Lastly, to Stamp, the principal reason I've chosen this line of thought is that it makes it incredibly simple to understand and can be very clearly delineated by the rules. Placing a card is just putting it somewhere. Playing a card is putting it "in play" and/or activating it (in many cases, those two happen together anyway).
Recognizing that multiple points of view are valid? On the Internet?! I thought you'd know better.
As I told Lambo, the various ideas coincide about 98% of the time, in terms of whether or not they "work" with the cards. So to find the differentiation and determine what works best, we must look at the reasons why they must be defined one way and not the other, and which makes the most sense among the 2% disagreement between them.
STAMP, that is true. I just prefer to look at it from my perspective. :)
When a card goes from hand to discard pile, that is called discarding, not playing. Discarding a card and playing a card ARE mutually exclusive. Placing a card and playing a card are NOT mutually exclusive.
If you place a character or enhancement into your territory, that is playing it.
This is true of characters placed from hand into territory, weapons placed from hand onto characters, characters placed from hand onto fortresses, and enhancements placed from hand onto fortresses. In all those cases, the card is going from hand into the field of play.
I can understand the head scratching when it comes to "playing" a card to an area that is NOT in play, but there are cards that do that ("Plays to set aide area."). And you still "play" an artifact when you place it face down in your artifact pile. If there were a card that said "Opponent cannot play artifacts, sites, or characters next turn," that would keep your opponent from placing any one of those into his territory - even face down. Right?
Discarding a card and playing a card ARE mutually exclusive. Placing a card and playing a card are NOT mutually exclusive.
This is true of characters placed from hand into territory, weapons placed from hand onto characters, characters placed from hand onto fortresses, and enhancements placed from hand onto fortresses. In all those cases, the card is going from hand into the field of play.
And you still "play" an artifact when you place it face down in your artifact pile.
:laugh:QuoteDiscarding a card and playing a card ARE mutually exclusive. Placing a card and playing a card are NOT mutually exclusive.But you haven't explained what makes them different.
I do not think putting Characters in your territory is "placing"
*The only case where Placement happens without an ability is Lost Souls and sites.And Forts. And your Artifact pile.
So, Lambo, "holds" is a "may place" special ability again? ;)
Panic Demon (pale green) places itself on a hero. Panic Demon is not played at that moment, because it was already played.
How can a card activate its ability if it wasn't played at some point?
Otherwise, I go from placing an artifact to activating it, and it was never played?
If putting a card into your territory without its special ability activating (see heroes, weapons, ECs, artifacts, multi-color sites), can still count as playing it, then placing a card from hand onto fortress still counts as playing it, too.
Mark,
Any ability that says "search for a card and play it" does not work under Bryon's definition, which I should also note that you have slightly misstated by leaving out the "only from your hand" restriction.
The answer to "Why MUST this be considered PLAY, rather than only a place" comes down to one thing for me: a card can't hit the table from hand without being either played or discarded. How can a card activate its ability if it wasn't played at some point?
I think for Bryon's interpretation to work we have to entertain a previous debate about whether cards that are searched for actually "pass through" the hand. I did not have an opinion on that one way or another, but I do remember reading a thread about it.
I just said that putting a card onto the table from your hand counts as playing the card. But that is not the ONLY way to play a card. Playing a card from a discard pile or a deck is still playing a card, too.
If an artifact was face down, then turning it face up is not considered "playing" the artifact. It was already played when it hit the table from your hand (or deck or discard pile.)
What problems does this cause? I can think of none.
Bryon is saying that cards must be considered "played" when they hit the table so that you can use them then (ie. face-up artifacts) or later (ie. face-down artifacts).This seems to be an accurate picture of our positions (of mine at least). Here's one way to answer your question about validity:
Schaef is saying that cards are only being "placed" when they hit the table, and that they are "played" when they enter "play". Therefore, putting down a face-down art would be "placing" it, but it wouldn't be "played" until you turned it face-up and "activated" it.
Are there any current rulings that would contradict either of these perspectives, or are they equally valid?
Prevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement.
To be frank, yes this can cause a change in the game.
Wasting Disease has now become increasingly more powerful.QuotePrevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement.
Previously, it only prevented cards such as ET and Reach. Now... it stops:
ET type heroes, Reach type enhancements, Great Faith type enhancements, Elishana type heroes, I am Truth (though it did before, idk how many people realized this), Musicians Chamber, Drawn out type enhancements, AND storehouse.
Would you allow a player to put an artifact into his artifact pile with this active? I would not.
Oh, add I am Creator and Creation of the World to the WD list as well.
A "play ability" would simply be an ability that allows a card to be played, is it not?No. "Play abilities" means "play" special abilities. Remember the lost soul exchange/place ruling?
Not so. An exchange ability is an exchange ability, nothing more. But it can have the effect of place, discard, or play.
That's a question for a more objective voice regarding the state of the REG.
If you're saying that my voice is not worth hearing, then join the club.
We know that the rest of you are consumed by the production of the "New REG," which is why we have offered our services. To refuse our help and then poke us in spite of it leaves you no more objective than me.
If you're saying that my voice is not worth hearing, then join the club.
I was saying that I don't think I am qualified to answer the question.
But as "the rest of you" is a term applied more loosely than you realize, the point turns out to be moot.
Right now, EVERYONE on this board is (supposed to be) contributing to the new REG. Tim posted a link to most of it for everyone to read and comment on. A couple people have actually helped by calling out sections that they didn't understand or agree with.
Others just complain or tease about how long it's taking everyone else to do it. :)
Well playced STAMP, lol.One section?!? I count about 37. :)
There is only so much we can do to help with only one section posted. If we could see more sections of the REG to offer advice, then I think things may move along faster.
Lol. :D I see the almanac of abilities as one piece.LOL. The "almanac of special abilities" IS the new REG.
I see. Are the definitions of "Play" and "Place" clarified in the "New REG," or is that part of the debate (i.e. How should we define them?).
I (and others) have volunteered our time to make updates to the "Current REG" to avoid such confusion. We know that the rest of you are consumed by the production of the "New REG," which is why we have offered our services. To refuse our help and then poke us in spite of it leaves you no more objective than me.
2) to place a card "in play" by game rule and/or to activate its special ability- except that every time a character, weapon, or multi-colored site leaves your territory and enters battle to activate its special ability, that doesn't count as "play"
That is not an exception to the above.- except that every time a character, weapon, or site returns from set aside by game rule (not by a "return" special ability stated on a card), that doesn't count as play
That is not an exception to the above
Our definitions of "place" (the special ability) are identical...Our definitions of "place" (the action by game rule or the consequece of other abilities) are identical as well...
Right now, EVERYONE on this board is (supposed to be) contributing to the new REG. Tim posted a link to most of it for everyone to read and comment on. A couple people have actually helped by calling out sections that they didn't understand or agree with.
Others just complain or tease about how long it's taking everyone else to do it. :)
HOW is it not an exception?
Since I never even used the word "again", and since I have accepted from the very beginning of this discussion that your position only suggests that a card is played the first time it meets the condition, and not every time, I made the mistake of assuming you were giving my definition the same consideration.Ah. Now I understand completely.
You were mistaken in thinking my definition was incomplete. It is not. It is a play EVERY time it satisfies the condition.
1) to move a card from hand, deck, or discard pile to a location other than thoseOddities: Putting an artifact face-down or putting enhancements in Storehouse would count as "playing" them.
2). to place a card "in play" by game rule and/or to activate its special abilityOddities: A card could be played multiple times (ie. artifacts getting activated, deactivated, and then activated again, or cards getting set aside and returning to play).
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fssbassmaster%2F_%2Frsrc%2F1256233622380%2FComplainers.gif&hash=d831d7bfb9076f5a0476f9a84d024902a8928971)And we have our first picture in the list. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12349.msg309174#msg309174) Of course that does mean that you need to keep that picture there forever STAMP, so that future generations will all get to enjoy it as well :)
If another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.
You cannot activate something already activated, you cannot discard something already discarded, but you can play something already played? Is that what I am now forced to clarify?I asked you to clarify your definition.
Oddities: Putting an artifact face-downThere are fortresses that say "Plays to set aside area." So, playing a card to an out-of-play location is not new.
putting enhancements in Storehouse would count as "playing" them.This is the biggest hangup for people. MasterKChief pointed this out on the second page:
yeah, dd stopping enhancements from going into sh just doesnt stick well. 'play' can mean entirely different things for different types of cards. 'play' for enhancements has pretty much always exclusively meant by activating its ability.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I will bring it up again... Another situation this could be game changing is with Proud Pharisee. If he is brought into battle by say... Herod Agrippa II, who has a weapon on him... has an enhancement been played this turn?QuoteIf another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.
Also said earlier, I have had it ruled that Proud Pharisee would NOT be allowed to play an enhancement if a weapon is in battle before he enters.
UNLESS it is decided that, for the sake of long-time players such as MasterKChief and others who are understandably hung-up on the idea of an enhancement being considered "played" even though it is not being allowed to take effect (those who have difficulty separating the special ability from the side effect), we decide to treat enhancements DIFFERENTLY than every other type of card.
we decide to treat enhancements DIFFERENTLY than every other type of card.Because it is a different type of card?
Please write your rule so that it doesn't have the fuzzy "first time" feature as a hidden, unstated footnote.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I will bring it up again... Another situation this could be game changing is with Proud Pharisee. If he is brought into battle by say... Herod Agrippa II, who has a weapon on him... has an enhancement been played this turn?-Lambo
Quote
If another Pharisee is in play, you may reveal your hand to draw two cards. If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.
Also said earlier, I have had it ruled that Proud Pharisee would NOT be allowed to play an enhancement if a weapon is in battle before he enters.
This is now the second time I am asking you to drop this specious argument.I don't think Bryon is trying to be specious to you Schaef. I am also a bit confused here. I thought you were saying that cards could be played multiple times (ie. an art being activate, deactivated, and then activated again) if it entered play multiple times. Are you not saying that?
you can't play a card that has already been played.Because a card can enter and exit the "field of play", and since your definition of "play" means to enter that field, it was a natural misunderstanding to think that you might view a card as being "played" multiple times.
Because a card can enter and exit the "field of play", and since your definition of "play" means to enter that field...
...it was a natural misunderstanding to think that you might view a card as being "played" multiple times.
So... if what happens if you had used an evil Tclass enhancement last? would Book copy it, and become an evil card?
This enhancement duplicates (becomes an exact copy of) the previous good enhancement played by holder this turn
When you play a card, it has been played. I'm pretty sure it would just retain that quality until it is returned to face value.THAT is what I was waiting for. Thank you for finally answering my request (even if it took Mark asking to finally get you to cooperate). :)
I find it ironic that, according to your definition, a card can be played again as long as it has been reset. Notice where cards reset: hand, deck, or discard pile. Looks familiar. :)
I greatly prefer my definition, since it doesn't require keeping track of which artifacts have been activated or not.
1. An enhancement placed by the Augur type hero DOES count as being played. (Did you misread his question? It seems like you got those reversed.)
3. Stillness can't return an enhancement played in a previous phase.
5. Ongoing abilities only last until the end of the phase (or turn in the case of Abel's Sacrifice).
7. That is part of the reason that "playing" enhancements has always seemed "somehow different" than the playing of every other type of card.
Players might think it odd that you consider an enhancement placed on Musician's Chamber played, but an enhancement placed on Storehouse is not. This is not inconsistent, based on your definition. It just feels odd.
5. Ongoing abilities only last until the end of the phase (or turn in the case of Abel's Sacrifice). Abel's Sacrifice expired. It is the same as if, during battle, you played Abel's Sacrifice, then Eleazar's Sword on a warrior class hero. Eleazar's Sword is CBI for that battle. It does not gain CNI for the rest of the game.
I was not baiting you.
Now, by that definition, if I put a hero into battle to activate its ability, it is played again.
Don't even pretend this is a convoluted ability. I've asked a few players here if they would allow a player to put an artifact in a pile if this were written on a card. They all said no.
If he placed it on a previous turn, then why is this even a question (since the demon specifies THIS TURN)? He did say that the Augur-type hero was the one in battle, right?
3. So then, according to you, Stillness would return all good enhancements (weapons, territory class, set aside, and healing) you played that prep phase? And why stop at phase?
5. Satan's Seat only lasts to the end of the phase in which it was discarded (unless specified "this turn" which lasts until the end of the turn). Same as any card with an ongoing ability, including Abel's Sacrifice.
Am I correct in deciphering from your non-answer that enhancements placed in Musician's Chamber are played, but the ones in Storehouse are not?
I agree with Schaef.
I agree with Schaef.
Quoted for future reference... ;)
Example 5: If I play Abel's Sacrifice on Table of Burnt Offering, then rescue with Agur and place a negateable enhancement on one of my hero's, doesn't that enhancement become CBI the next turn I use that hero?Again, Abel's Sacrifice only grants CBI status for the rest of that turn to cards that are played that turn. In your example, you are talking about allowing the enhancement placed on your hero to STILL have that status from a turn or more ago. That doesn't work.
Again, Abel's Sacrifice only grants CBI status for the rest of that turn to cards that are played that turn.
2) As a card enters play by game rule and/or activates its special ability.
1) As a card goes from hand, deck, or discard pile to a location other than those.Just to clarify, your definition means that if I play a card that discards the top card of your draw pile, then that card is considered "played" (because it went from the deck to the discard pile), even though it never entered play, never activated it's special ability, or really anything else for that matter.
QuoteExample 5: If I play Abel's Sacrifice on Table of Burnt Offering, then rescue with Agur and place a negateable enhancement on one of my hero's, doesn't that enhancement become CBI the next turn I use that hero?Again, Abel's Sacrifice only grants CBI status for the rest of that turn to cards that are played that turn. In your example, you are talking about allowing the enhancement placed on your hero to STILL have that status from a turn or more ago. That doesn't work.
It is exactly the same as a green WC hero who uses Abel's Sacrifice followed by a green weapon that the hero keeps after battle. The Weapon only keeps "Cannot be interrupted" status during the turn it shares with Abel's Sacrifice. The weapon does not keep CBI status for subsequent turns. If you played Abel's Sacrifice on one turn, it grants the enhancement that came into play by Agur's place ability CBI status for the rest of that turn. Once that turn is over, the placed enhancement no longer retains that CBI status (just as the weapon in my example does not retain CBI status).
Somebody just shoot mea PMwhen this is all over...
I greatly prefer my definition, since it doesn't require keeping track of which artifacts have been activated or not.
"Opponent can't play heroes, fortresses, or artifacts this round."
Scott, does a green weapon played immediately after Abel's Sacrifice gain CBI for the rest of the game?
According to current rules, it does not. Ongoing abilities like Abel's Sacrifice (which is discarded after it is used) stop giving their effects once the phase (or turn in this case) is over. It is not a permanent gain, like a set aside.
Are there any other suggestions for defining the moment when a card is played?
Should we just make the rule for "playing" enhancements separate from and completely different from the definition of "playing" for all other cards?
Should a card have to go "in play" in order to be considered "played."?
What do you think of the third option? Do we allow a card to be "played" multiple times without ever returning to hand, deck, or discard pile?
I am not of a strong opinion regarding whether multiple activations count as new "plays", I find it less problematic than the inverse, counting cards that are placed for storage rather than for use.I am not strongly opposed to that either, and I find it less problematic than having to keep track of "first times."
I am not strongly opposed to that either, and I find it less problematic than having to keep track of "first times."
I am not of a strong opinion regarding whether multiple activations count as new "plays", I find it less problematic than the inverse, counting cards that are placed for storage rather than for use.I am not strongly opposed to that either, and I find it less problematic than having to keep track of "first times."
Scott, after the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice and Sowing the Seed are both played, Abel's Sacrifice does nothing for it. Of course, the placement of Sowing the Seed already CBN after the phase in which is it placed. And the decrease/convert can't be negated after the phase in which it is completed (upkeep). But, if you could somehow play an interrupt during your upkeep phase, you would be able to interrupt it.
Isn't that kind of a moot point anyway, as enhancements placed in a prior phase cannot be negated to begin with? :P
Isn't that kind of a moot point anyway, as enhancements placed in a prior phase cannot be negated to begin with? :PYes and No. I prefer Abel's sac + placer. Since a card gains CBI/CBP/CBN when played by bryon's standards, Abel's sac + placer = CBN placed enh.
The point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice knows nothing about the distinction between playing w/activation versus playing w/no activation. Thus, Abel's Sacrifice will work exactly the same whether it's Sowing the Seed or Agur-placed enhancement.And the point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice never extends beyond the turn it was played and discarded. Once a card with an ongoing ability is discarded, its special ability lasts only until the end of that phase. It is the same for artifacts and forts that are discarded without being negated. Abel's Sacrifice does not grant ANY card CBI status for more than the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice is played and discarded.
I agree with Bryon on the Abel's Sacrifice thing, I believe the ruling is that for cards abilities to be given permanently it has to specifically say something like "for the remainder of game" or "while it remains in play" or something like that, or just stay active (like artifacts or placed enhancements.
No character's ability to protect itself remains active after they've left battle (unless it said something about it specifically).
Then what about the rule once a card has CBI (etc.) or not CBI status that status can not be removed, tampered with, or added?The point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice knows nothing about the distinction between playing w/activation versus playing w/no activation. Thus, Abel's Sacrifice will work exactly the same whether it's Sowing the Seed or Agur-placed enhancement.And the point I'm trying to make is that Abel's Sacrifice never extends beyond the turn it was played and discarded. Once a card with an ongoing ability is discarded, its special ability lasts only until the end of that phase. It is the same for artifacts and forts that are discarded without being negated. Abel's Sacrifice does not grant ANY card CBI status for more than the turn in which Abel's Sacrifice is played and discarded.
Other Abilities > Cannot be Negated
Default Conditions
• If a card does not have “cannot be negated” status when it is played, then it cannot gain it later.
• Special abilities completed on a previous turn cannot be negated.