Author Topic: Arrogance off Swift Horses (Read 9030 times)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2008, 03:16:36 PM »

What if I have a crimson EC who plays a crimson enhancement, then is somehow removed from battle by SA. If I have Unknown Nation active and bring in a new crimson character, they don't get to use the previous enhancement's numbers?

I guess I have always understood that the enhancements that cannot be used linger, but have no effect, just in case a character that can use them somehow enters battle.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #26 on:** December 22, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 03:16:36 PM

What if I have a crimson EC who plays a crimson enhancement, then is somehow removed from battle by SA. If I have Unknown Nation active and bring in a new crimson character, they don't get to use the previous enhancement's numbers?

I guess I have always understood that the enhancements that cannot be used linger, but have no effect, just in case a character that can use them somehow enters battle.

I don't know actually, but I would assume that unless you used Unknown Nation before the first character was removed, the enhancement would be discarded/removed as well.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #27 on:** December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM »

Can we get some confirmation on this ruling? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty, for me especially.

1. Once a "Negate All" SA is activated, can it be interrupted?
2. If "Negate All" is interrupted and the character removed from battle, does the "Negate All" still remain in effect for the battle after the interrupt ends?
3. If a character is removed from battle, are all enhancements removed immediately as well, or are they discarded during Battle Resolution?

These questions need to be answered in order to properly rule this scenario (and its derivatives).

MichaelHue · « **Reply #28 on:** December 22, 2008, 11:40:17 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

Can we get some confirmation on this ruling? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty, for me especially.

1. Once a "Negate All" SA is activated, can it be interrupted?
2. If "Negate All" is interrupted and the character removed from battle, does the "Negate All" still remain in effect for the battle after the interrupt ends?
3. If a character is removed from battle, are all enhancements removed immediately as well, or are they discarded during Battle Resolution?

These questions need to be answered in order to properly rule this scenario (and its derivatives).

Well, the first two questions I can answer confidently; once a "negate all" SA is activated, it can be interrupted unless the interrupt is prevented.

Quote

#6 - You Can't Interrupt a Prevent if Your Interrupt is Prevented

If the interrupt cannot be prevented/negated or is not targeted by the "negate all" ability in question, the "negate all" ability can be interrupted.

For instance, TSA (Kings) vs a Warrior-class Pale Green Evil character with Two Thousand Horses. 2KH works, because TSA doesn't target weapon-class enhancements. TSA (Warriors) vs the same evil character does prevent 2KH, because the warriors version targets the enhancement. If TSA (Warriors) battles The Rabshekeh with 2KH, 2KH works, because TSA targets it, but it cannot be negated.

If a "negate all" ability is interrupted successfully and the character removed from battle during the interrupt, the "negate all" ability does not remain in effect. This is the same as interrupting Freedom! with Achan's Sin.

I'm not entirely sure about your third question, but I'd like to ask if anyone can confirm if all evil enhancements played via Dream/Swift Horses > Arrogance fall under the "umbrella" of the initial interrupt.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #29 on:** December 23, 2008, 06:05:02 AM »

If a character is d/c'd (By say DOU) the enhancements are discarded as well.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #30 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:12:39 AM »

Quote from: MichaelHue on December 22, 2008, 11:40:17 PM

If a "negate all" ability is interrupted successfully and the character removed from battle during the interrupt, the "negate all" ability does not remain in effect. This is the same as interrupting Freedom! with Achan's Sin.

Interrupting an enhancement and then having noone to activate it on after the interrupt is a different scenario, IMO. Enhancements need to be activated on something. Character SAs are different. Once the character enters battle, the SA activates and remains in effect. The "Negate All" section of the REG says that. SA's can be negated or prevented so they never play a role in the battle, but TSA's SA was only interrupted. It should still take effect after the interrupt. His ability successfully activated when he entered battle. The precendent for a character's SA being in effect even when the character is no longer in battle has already been set, with "Negate All" in particular.

Quote

I'm not entirely sure about your third question, but I'd like to ask if anyone can confirm if all evil enhancements played via Dream/Swift Horses > Arrogance fall under the "umbrella" of the initial interrupt.

I think that they do, since Arrogance says "initiative then passes." The interrupt should be in effect until the completion of the play next -> Arrogance -> play as many as you want.

Gabe · « **Reply #31 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:19:02 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

Can we get some confirmation on this ruling? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty, for me especially.

1. Once a "Negate All" SA is activated, can it be interrupted?

MichaelHue is correct and provided good examples.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

2. If "Negate All" is interrupted and the character removed from battle, does the "Negate All" still remain in effect for the battle after the interrupt ends?

Again, MichaelHue is correct. If the character with the negate all ability is removed from battle their special ability will not reinstate.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

3. If a character is removed from battle, are all enhancements removed immediately as well, or are they discarded during Battle Resolution?

The only reference I've found to discarding enhancements during battle is in the battle resolutionsection of the REG. I believe those are simplified examples because at the time they were written it was not possible to add another character to battle (via Unknown Nation) after all characters had been removed. In every example in the REG, when a character is removed from battle the enhancements are discarded by the rules of the game. When no character remains in battle with a brigade color that matches the enhancements they will be discarded. There's no window of opportunity to sneak a character in with Unknown Nation and "save" the enhancements.

Now, back to the orginal question, does Arrogance allow you to continue to play enhancements under the "umbrella" of the interrupt/play next card?

Yes, all the cards played under Arrogance fall under the original interrupt. In the original example TSA would not negate the enhancements played if he was removed before the defender was done playing enhancements with Arrogance.

The REG lists Arrogance as a Play Next Enhancement Card.

That means that the ability of Arrogance is not complete until your done with the extended play next ability.

The REG gives a general description of how to use Play Next Enhancement Cards:

Quote from: REG

This type of card contains instructions allowing you to continue playing one or more enhancement cards.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #32 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:32:00 AM »

OK. Thanks for the confirmation. Way to go MichaelHue! You are the man!

So, the REG ruling that a "Negate All" remains in effect even if the character is removed is only an exception to prevent the "infinite loop" (as ChristianSoldier said earlier) and not intended to be used in any other circumstance?

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:38:29 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 23, 2008, 09:32:00 AM

So, the REG ruling that a "Negate All" remains in effect even if the character is removed is only an exception to prevent the "infinite loop" (as ChristianSoldier said earlier) and not intended to be used in any other circumstance?

I think you're reading to much into that statement. Where in the REG do you find it? What is the context of the statement?

No ability (including "negate all") remains if it's been interrupted/negated (unless the ability itself cannot be negated).

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:40:43 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 23, 2008, 09:12:39 AM

Enhancements need to be activated on something. Character SAs are different. Once the character enters battle, the SA activates and remains in effect.

I'm not clear on how character SA's are different. If I interrupt and discard an Enhancement, that also is equivalent to a negate. It's not just when I interrupt the Enhancement and discard the character under it. So if I interrupt a character's ability and then discard him, how would that not have the same effect?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #35 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:43:30 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 23, 2008, 09:38:29 AM

I think you're reading to much into that statement. Where in the REG do you find it? What is the context of the statement?

I was referring to the banding of a "Negate All" character into battle (I mentioned in an earlier post). The "Negate All" character negates the band and goes back from wherever he came and the battle is now "Negate All" with the original character.

Quote from: The Schaef on December 23, 2008, 09:40:43 AM

I'm not clear on how character SA's are different. If I interrupt and discard an Enhancement, that also is equivalent to a negate. It's not just when I interrupt the Enhancement and discard the character under it. So if I interrupt a character's ability and then discard him, how would that not have the same effect?

I was referring to my misunderstanding with the scenario that Gabe and I are now discussing. Sorry for the confusion.

Gabe · « **Reply #36 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:52:19 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 23, 2008, 09:43:30 AM

I was referring to the banding of a "Negate All" character into battle (I mentioned in an earlier post). The "Negate All" character negates the band and goes back from wherever he came and the battle is now "Negate All" with the original character.

Ah yes, then you're correct that the statement only applies to banding a "negate all" character into battle (to prevent an infinite loop) and not to "negate all" abilities under any and every circumstance.

I've found that interrupt/negate (and ignore) have been some of the hardest things to wrap my mind around with Redemption.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #37 on:** December 23, 2008, 10:01:36 AM »

OK. Thanks again! I would say "you're the man", too, but you already were.

My misunderstandings are not limited to interrupt/negate/ignore. The following pretty much sums up my Redemption experience:

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 23, 2008, 09:38:29 AM

I think you're reading to much into that statement.

STAMP · « **Reply #38 on:** December 23, 2008, 07:09:39 PM »

My answers to original question were based on how I've always played Arrogance. Yet in some of the responses I've read, it appears that others have felt that Arrogance plays like a "play next enhancement"-type card. In other words, Arrogance activates and stays active until the player passes initiative.

I looked in the rulebook and REG and cannot find anything that would lead me to believe that Arrogance works like that. If that were the case then Swift Horses would turn on the interrupt, the player would then play the next enhancement which is Arrogance. The interrupt would stay on until the SA of Arrogance is complete which is when the player passes initiative. If this is the case, then all enhancements played after Arrogance would fall under the interrupt "umbrella" and be protected from TSA's "negate all".

I don't think that is how Arrogance should be played. I've always played it as a card that basically changes how initiative checks are done in battle after it's SA completes.

I'm not the PTB so I would be interested if I've been playing it wrong all this time.

The Schaef · « **Reply #39 on:** December 23, 2008, 07:58:01 PM »

Gabe gave some very strong evidence from the REG that Arrogance should be played in exactly that manner. Including the fact that Arrogance is listed under that ability type.

STAMP · « **Reply #40 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:35:09 AM »

Maybe you and Gabe have access to a different online REG, because the one I'm looking at now shows no sign of Arrogance being listed under the "Play Next Enhancement" section.

The Schaef · « **Reply #41 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:36:47 AM »

http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/evilcharacterenhancementcards11.htm

STAMP · « **Reply #42 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:40:38 AM »

Oh I'M sorry. Silly me. I was looking under "Evil Enhancement Cards" as opposed to "Evil Character Enhancement Cards" of which I don't have any in my collection.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #43 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:09:23 AM »

to Gabe and Schaef.

I was just looking at Arrogance last night, and hadn't weighed in on this thread yet. After looking at it and reading the thread, I agree that Arrogance's SA isn't finished until you have finished playing cards. Therefore, if Arrogance is played after an interrupt, then all the cards that you play immediately after it would also be within that interrupt.

This tells me two things. #1 is that I should look at putting Arrogance in a deck. #2 is that they should never make an end the battle card from crimson like Forgotten History or Wonders Forgotten.

STAMP · « **Reply #44 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:44:05 AM »

It's okay if they make Forgotten Defenses. There just better not be a crimson Momentum Change.

And regarding my comment just above, I hope we can get the REG fixed. It's just a tad confusing. The section labels under Play Next Enhancement should read:

Hero Character cards
Hero Enhancement cards
Evil Character cards
Evil Enhancement cards

Not:

Hero Character cards
Hero Enhancement cards
Evil Character Enhancement cards
Evil Enhancement cards

I wouldn't have posted in error if the information I consulted wasn't misleading.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:46:14 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 02, 2009, 11:09:23 AM

to Gabe and Schaef.

I was just looking at Arrogance last night, and hadn't weighed in on this thread yet.

Me too.

Quote

After looking at it and reading the thread, I agree that Arrogance's SA isn't finished until you have finished playing cards.

And by the same token (i.e., abilities must complete), no Dominants could be played either. Correct?

Quote from: STAMP on January 02, 2009, 11:44:05 AM

I wouldn't have posted in error if the information I consulted wasn't misleading.

Excuses, excuses.*

It seems whenever there are no ECs that have a certain SA, they get listed as Evil Enhancement Character cards in the Online REG.

*I'm just kidding STAMP. I've faced the same problem before.

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Author Topic: Arrogance off Swift Horses (Read 9030 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef