Author Topic: Arrogance off Swift Horses (Read 9028 times)

ChristianSoldier · « **on:** December 22, 2008, 01:45:34 PM »

I was wondering, since the interrupt on Swift Horses lasts until the effect of the next enhancement completes, if I play Arrogance on it, are all the enhancements I play from the ability on Arrogance part of the interrupt?

An example would be if I were attacked by the kings Strong angel, and I blocked with a Babylonian with Swift Horses and played Arrogance, since the negate is interrupted its effect should go through, would every card I play using Arrogance's ability also not be negated?

Arrogance: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements.

Swift Horses: Weapon Class: Interrupt the battle and draw two cards. If used by a Babylonian, you may play the next Enhancement.

The Strong Angel: Warrior Class: All special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements are negated.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2008, 01:52:48 PM »

I"m not 100% sure, but when you finished playing ehs with Arrogrance, Strong Angel's ability would take affect again and then those ehs would be negated.

Great question; I await other responses eagerly

STAMP · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2008, 01:54:53 PM »

TSA's ability kicks back in after Arrogance.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:03:39 PM »

When you play Swift Horses and then Arrogance, it's basically like saying "Interrupt the battle and play as many enhancements as you choose," right? If so, I would think that if one of those enhancements removed TSA from the battle, his negate ability would never kick back in.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:05:48 PM »

Quote

When you play Swift Horses and then Arrogance, it's basically like saying "Interrupt the battle and play as many enhancements as you choose," right? If so, I would think that if one of those enhancements removed TSA from the battle, his negate ability would never kick back in.

That's how I expected it, its just another play next ability (just play next for as long as I want rather than play the next one)

STAMP · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:06:17 PM »

However, Arrogance does not have an "umbrella" effect on its SA like an Interrupt the battle. Yes, you get to play as many enhancements as you'd like, but ongoing effects kick back in after the SA for Arrogance is complete.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:15:20 PM »

so the SA's ability would take effect right after Arrogance? Then Arrogance would be negated before any other cards were played....

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:18:05 PM »

You cannot interrupt TSA'a ability anyway. The only reason Swift Horses is allowed is because it was Warrior-Class. Arrogance is not Warrior-Class so it is being prevented by TSA. Only Warrior-Class enhancements will have effect while TSA is in battle (or ehancements that Cannot be Negated/Prevented).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:20:14 PM »

Why can't you interrupt it? Its an ongoing ability without a cannot be interrupted clause, according to that logic you can't negate King of Tyrus's ability with the Might of Faith

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:24:10 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 22, 2008, 02:20:14 PM

Why can't you interrupt it? Its an ongoing ability without a cannot be interrupted clause, according to that logic you can't negate King of Tyrus's ability with the Might of Faith

What is Might of Faith's ability? I cannot find it in the REG.

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:24:52 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 02:18:05 PM

Arrogance is not Warrior-Class so it is being prevented by TSA.

Actually, Arrogance's SA activates under Swift Horse's ITB so it is not prevented.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:26:37 PM »

Negate the special ability on an evil character. Cannot be prevented.
And for it to negate it has to interrupt it first.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:34:34 PM »

You can interrupt TSA's ability with Swift Horses, since TSA's ability does not prevent Swift Horses from activating, as mentioned by Scott. Scott is also correct that the prevent on TSA kicks back in after Arrogance is played, resulting in its negation. However, you can use Nergal with Swift Horses to play Arrogance without negation.

Kirk

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:36:27 PM »

So why do I get to play the next without negation with Swift Horses, but its negated with Arrogance?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »

I see what y'all are saying now. I guess I did not think it through completely.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 22, 2008, 02:36:27 PM

So why do I get to play the next without negation with Swift Horses, but its negated with Arrogance?

The "Play Next" is not negated. Arrogance (the card) stays on the table. However, its SA is negated after the interrupt completes, which removes all the cards that entered battle because of it (except those that Cannot be Negated). "Negate All" ability can be retroactive, unlike Interrupt the Battle which is more limited (i.e. last enhancement played).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #15 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:44:05 PM »

So I can play enhancements with Arrogance, but once it completes the negate kicks in again and negates everything I played, am I right about this?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:46:49 PM »

Correct, unless any of the enhancements "Cannot be Negated/Interrupted," in which case they would stick. According to the REG, "Negate All" abilities remain in effect even if the character is removed.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 02:46:49 PM

Correct, unless any of the enhancements "Cannot be Negated/Interrupted," in which case they would stick. According to the REG, "Negate All" abilities remain in effect even if the character is removed.

Except that you're interrupting the "Negate All" and THEN removing the character (assuming you play an enhancement after Arrogance that kills TSA). I always assumed Arrogance was basically played as "you may play the next enhancement as many times as you like," in which case it would be treated the same as an interrupt/play next if played after Swift Horses. Does it not work that way in this case?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:50:58 PM »

If my character dies, because of Belshazzar's Banquet, all of my enhancements would be negated at that point?

MichaelHue · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:54:21 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 22, 2008, 02:50:58 PM

If my character dies, because of Belshazzar's Banquet, all of my enhancements would be negated at that point?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Negate all is treated as interrupt and prevent all, so it should work like this:

You draw and play Arrogance from the ability of Swift Horses
You play whatever followed by Belshazzar's Banquet
You die, TSA's ability kicks back in, but has nothing to interrupt as your evil character and all the evil enhancements played on it are in the discard pile. It also has nothing to prevent, as you aren't using any abilities after that point.

Basically the question is this: do cards played by the initiative granted by Arrogance gain the "umbrella effect" of the interrupt if Arrogance is played after Swift Horses' ability activates? If so, then if the evil character or the hero is removed from the field of battle before the "Negate All" ability reactivates, they stick. If not, the negate kicks back in in the middle of Arrogance's effect, which feels very wrong to me.

Going by what people have said, I think that Arrogance does benefit from Swift Horses' "umbrella," and as long as both TSA AND your evil enhancements are not in battle after you finish playing via Arrogance, nothing is negated.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:56:48 PM »

Quote from: MichaelHue on December 22, 2008, 02:50:25 PM

Except that you're interrupting the "Negate All" and THEN removing the character (assuming you play an enhancement after Arrogance that kills TSA).

I was going by the REG example with banding in a "Negate All" character. i.e. TSA is banded into battle by Jacob. TSA negates the band, so he goes back and now the battle is "Negate All" with Jacob. Would that not be the case here?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #21 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:58:47 PM »

That is the special case that a negate cannot indirectly negate itself, to prevent negate loops from happening. Or at least how I understand it.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #22 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:59:48 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 02:56:48 PM

Quote from: MichaelHue on December 22, 2008, 02:50:25 PM
Except that you're interrupting the "Negate All" and THEN removing the character (assuming you play an enhancement after Arrogance that kills TSA).

I was going by the REG example with banding in a "Negate All" character. i.e. TSA is banded into battle by Jacob. TSA negates the band, so he goes back and now the battle is "Negate All" with Jacob. Would that not be the case here?

It would be, except that if you interrupt TSA's ability and then remove either him or the cards he is trying to negate from battle, he can't reinterrupt them. However, if you did use Jacob banded to TSA and TSA got kicked back out by his own SA, you could not interrupt his ability, so swift horses wouldn't protect anything from being negated. I think this is how it works, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2008, 03:07:12 PM »

I'm OK with being wrong, I just want to be sure.

Regarding Belshazzar's Banquet, the ECs are removed, but do the enhancements get discarded immediately? The REG says this under Battle Resolution:

All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards such as Thorn in the Flesh placed on other cards during battle) are discarded to the owner’s discard pile.

I may be nitpicking the REG incorrectly again, but if enhancements are discarded during Battle Resolution, then Belshazzar's Banquet is still eligible to be negated if TSA is still in battle after the interrupt ends.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2008, 03:12:54 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 03:07:12 PM

I'm OK with being wrong, I just want to be sure.

Regarding Belshazzar's Banquet, the ECs are removed, but do the enhancements get discarded immediately? The REG says this under Battle Resolution:

All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards such as Thorn in the Flesh placed on other cards during battle) are discarded to the owner’s discard pile.

I may be nitpicking the REG incorrectly again, but if enhancements are discarded during Battle Resolution, then Belshazzar's Banquet is still eligible to be negated if TSA is still in battle after the interrupt ends.

I think the issue is that the character is being discarded before battle resolution. If the evil character is discarded by a special ability, the enhancements played on that character are discarded at the same time (I think). My understanding of this is that enhancements played in battle with only one character of a compatible brigade are dependent on that character for existence. If a character is discarded by numbers or if battle just ends and a character survives, then the enhancements are discarded during battle resolution. I'm pretty sure that removal by special ability is not actually Battle Resolution, and that Battle Resolution only takes place when one side of the battle is completely removed, both players pass initiative in a stalemate or mutual destruction, or one player who is losing by the numbers passes initiative.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2008, 03:16:36 PM »

What if I have a crimson EC who plays a crimson enhancement, then is somehow removed from battle by SA. If I have Unknown Nation active and bring in a new crimson character, they don't get to use the previous enhancement's numbers?

I guess I have always understood that the enhancements that cannot be used linger, but have no effect, just in case a character that can use them somehow enters battle.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #26 on:** December 22, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 03:16:36 PM

What if I have a crimson EC who plays a crimson enhancement, then is somehow removed from battle by SA. If I have Unknown Nation active and bring in a new crimson character, they don't get to use the previous enhancement's numbers?

I guess I have always understood that the enhancements that cannot be used linger, but have no effect, just in case a character that can use them somehow enters battle.

I don't know actually, but I would assume that unless you used Unknown Nation before the first character was removed, the enhancement would be discarded/removed as well.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #27 on:** December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM »

Can we get some confirmation on this ruling? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty, for me especially.

1. Once a "Negate All" SA is activated, can it be interrupted?
2. If "Negate All" is interrupted and the character removed from battle, does the "Negate All" still remain in effect for the battle after the interrupt ends?
3. If a character is removed from battle, are all enhancements removed immediately as well, or are they discarded during Battle Resolution?

These questions need to be answered in order to properly rule this scenario (and its derivatives).

MichaelHue · « **Reply #28 on:** December 22, 2008, 11:40:17 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

Can we get some confirmation on this ruling? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty, for me especially.

1. Once a "Negate All" SA is activated, can it be interrupted?
2. If "Negate All" is interrupted and the character removed from battle, does the "Negate All" still remain in effect for the battle after the interrupt ends?
3. If a character is removed from battle, are all enhancements removed immediately as well, or are they discarded during Battle Resolution?

These questions need to be answered in order to properly rule this scenario (and its derivatives).

Well, the first two questions I can answer confidently; once a "negate all" SA is activated, it can be interrupted unless the interrupt is prevented.

Quote

#6 - You Can't Interrupt a Prevent if Your Interrupt is Prevented

If the interrupt cannot be prevented/negated or is not targeted by the "negate all" ability in question, the "negate all" ability can be interrupted.

For instance, TSA (Kings) vs a Warrior-class Pale Green Evil character with Two Thousand Horses. 2KH works, because TSA doesn't target weapon-class enhancements. TSA (Warriors) vs the same evil character does prevent 2KH, because the warriors version targets the enhancement. If TSA (Warriors) battles The Rabshekeh with 2KH, 2KH works, because TSA targets it, but it cannot be negated.

If a "negate all" ability is interrupted successfully and the character removed from battle during the interrupt, the "negate all" ability does not remain in effect. This is the same as interrupting Freedom! with Achan's Sin.

I'm not entirely sure about your third question, but I'd like to ask if anyone can confirm if all evil enhancements played via Dream/Swift Horses > Arrogance fall under the "umbrella" of the initial interrupt.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #29 on:** December 23, 2008, 06:05:02 AM »

If a character is d/c'd (By say DOU) the enhancements are discarded as well.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #30 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:12:39 AM »

Quote from: MichaelHue on December 22, 2008, 11:40:17 PM

If a "negate all" ability is interrupted successfully and the character removed from battle during the interrupt, the "negate all" ability does not remain in effect. This is the same as interrupting Freedom! with Achan's Sin.

Interrupting an enhancement and then having noone to activate it on after the interrupt is a different scenario, IMO. Enhancements need to be activated on something. Character SAs are different. Once the character enters battle, the SA activates and remains in effect. The "Negate All" section of the REG says that. SA's can be negated or prevented so they never play a role in the battle, but TSA's SA was only interrupted. It should still take effect after the interrupt. His ability successfully activated when he entered battle. The precendent for a character's SA being in effect even when the character is no longer in battle has already been set, with "Negate All" in particular.

Quote

I'm not entirely sure about your third question, but I'd like to ask if anyone can confirm if all evil enhancements played via Dream/Swift Horses > Arrogance fall under the "umbrella" of the initial interrupt.

I think that they do, since Arrogance says "initiative then passes." The interrupt should be in effect until the completion of the play next -> Arrogance -> play as many as you want.

Gabe · « **Reply #31 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:19:02 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

Can we get some confirmation on this ruling? There seems to be a lot of uncertainty, for me especially.

1. Once a "Negate All" SA is activated, can it be interrupted?

MichaelHue is correct and provided good examples.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

2. If "Negate All" is interrupted and the character removed from battle, does the "Negate All" still remain in effect for the battle after the interrupt ends?

Again, MichaelHue is correct. If the character with the negate all ability is removed from battle their special ability will not reinstate.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 05:26:55 PM

3. If a character is removed from battle, are all enhancements removed immediately as well, or are they discarded during Battle Resolution?

The only reference I've found to discarding enhancements during battle is in the battle resolutionsection of the REG. I believe those are simplified examples because at the time they were written it was not possible to add another character to battle (via Unknown Nation) after all characters had been removed. In every example in the REG, when a character is removed from battle the enhancements are discarded by the rules of the game. When no character remains in battle with a brigade color that matches the enhancements they will be discarded. There's no window of opportunity to sneak a character in with Unknown Nation and "save" the enhancements.

Now, back to the orginal question, does Arrogance allow you to continue to play enhancements under the "umbrella" of the interrupt/play next card?

Yes, all the cards played under Arrogance fall under the original interrupt. In the original example TSA would not negate the enhancements played if he was removed before the defender was done playing enhancements with Arrogance.

The REG lists Arrogance as a Play Next Enhancement Card.

That means that the ability of Arrogance is not complete until your done with the extended play next ability.

The REG gives a general description of how to use Play Next Enhancement Cards:

Quote from: REG

This type of card contains instructions allowing you to continue playing one or more enhancement cards.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #32 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:32:00 AM »

OK. Thanks for the confirmation. Way to go MichaelHue! You are the man!

So, the REG ruling that a "Negate All" remains in effect even if the character is removed is only an exception to prevent the "infinite loop" (as ChristianSoldier said earlier) and not intended to be used in any other circumstance?

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:38:29 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 23, 2008, 09:32:00 AM

So, the REG ruling that a "Negate All" remains in effect even if the character is removed is only an exception to prevent the "infinite loop" (as ChristianSoldier said earlier) and not intended to be used in any other circumstance?

I think you're reading to much into that statement. Where in the REG do you find it? What is the context of the statement?

No ability (including "negate all") remains if it's been interrupted/negated (unless the ability itself cannot be negated).

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:40:43 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 23, 2008, 09:12:39 AM

Enhancements need to be activated on something. Character SAs are different. Once the character enters battle, the SA activates and remains in effect.

I'm not clear on how character SA's are different. If I interrupt and discard an Enhancement, that also is equivalent to a negate. It's not just when I interrupt the Enhancement and discard the character under it. So if I interrupt a character's ability and then discard him, how would that not have the same effect?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #35 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:43:30 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 23, 2008, 09:38:29 AM

I think you're reading to much into that statement. Where in the REG do you find it? What is the context of the statement?

I was referring to the banding of a "Negate All" character into battle (I mentioned in an earlier post). The "Negate All" character negates the band and goes back from wherever he came and the battle is now "Negate All" with the original character.

Quote from: The Schaef on December 23, 2008, 09:40:43 AM

I'm not clear on how character SA's are different. If I interrupt and discard an Enhancement, that also is equivalent to a negate. It's not just when I interrupt the Enhancement and discard the character under it. So if I interrupt a character's ability and then discard him, how would that not have the same effect?

I was referring to my misunderstanding with the scenario that Gabe and I are now discussing. Sorry for the confusion.

Gabe · « **Reply #36 on:** December 23, 2008, 09:52:19 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 23, 2008, 09:43:30 AM

I was referring to the banding of a "Negate All" character into battle (I mentioned in an earlier post). The "Negate All" character negates the band and goes back from wherever he came and the battle is now "Negate All" with the original character.

Ah yes, then you're correct that the statement only applies to banding a "negate all" character into battle (to prevent an infinite loop) and not to "negate all" abilities under any and every circumstance.

I've found that interrupt/negate (and ignore) have been some of the hardest things to wrap my mind around with Redemption.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #37 on:** December 23, 2008, 10:01:36 AM »

OK. Thanks again! I would say "you're the man", too, but you already were.

My misunderstandings are not limited to interrupt/negate/ignore. The following pretty much sums up my Redemption experience:

Quote from: BrianGabe on December 23, 2008, 09:38:29 AM

I think you're reading to much into that statement.

STAMP · « **Reply #38 on:** December 23, 2008, 07:09:39 PM »

My answers to original question were based on how I've always played Arrogance. Yet in some of the responses I've read, it appears that others have felt that Arrogance plays like a "play next enhancement"-type card. In other words, Arrogance activates and stays active until the player passes initiative.

I looked in the rulebook and REG and cannot find anything that would lead me to believe that Arrogance works like that. If that were the case then Swift Horses would turn on the interrupt, the player would then play the next enhancement which is Arrogance. The interrupt would stay on until the SA of Arrogance is complete which is when the player passes initiative. If this is the case, then all enhancements played after Arrogance would fall under the interrupt "umbrella" and be protected from TSA's "negate all".

I don't think that is how Arrogance should be played. I've always played it as a card that basically changes how initiative checks are done in battle after it's SA completes.

I'm not the PTB so I would be interested if I've been playing it wrong all this time.

The Schaef · « **Reply #39 on:** December 23, 2008, 07:58:01 PM »

Gabe gave some very strong evidence from the REG that Arrogance should be played in exactly that manner. Including the fact that Arrogance is listed under that ability type.

STAMP · « **Reply #40 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:35:09 AM »

Maybe you and Gabe have access to a different online REG, because the one I'm looking at now shows no sign of Arrogance being listed under the "Play Next Enhancement" section.

The Schaef · « **Reply #41 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:36:47 AM »

http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/evilcharacterenhancementcards11.htm

STAMP · « **Reply #42 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:40:38 AM »

Oh I'M sorry. Silly me. I was looking under "Evil Enhancement Cards" as opposed to "Evil Character Enhancement Cards" of which I don't have any in my collection.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #43 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:09:23 AM »

to Gabe and Schaef.

I was just looking at Arrogance last night, and hadn't weighed in on this thread yet. After looking at it and reading the thread, I agree that Arrogance's SA isn't finished until you have finished playing cards. Therefore, if Arrogance is played after an interrupt, then all the cards that you play immediately after it would also be within that interrupt.

This tells me two things. #1 is that I should look at putting Arrogance in a deck. #2 is that they should never make an end the battle card from crimson like Forgotten History or Wonders Forgotten.

STAMP · « **Reply #44 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:44:05 AM »

It's okay if they make Forgotten Defenses. There just better not be a crimson Momentum Change.

And regarding my comment just above, I hope we can get the REG fixed. It's just a tad confusing. The section labels under Play Next Enhancement should read:

Hero Character cards
Hero Enhancement cards
Evil Character cards
Evil Enhancement cards

Not:

Hero Character cards
Hero Enhancement cards
Evil Character Enhancement cards
Evil Enhancement cards

I wouldn't have posted in error if the information I consulted wasn't misleading.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:46:14 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 02, 2009, 11:09:23 AM

to Gabe and Schaef.

I was just looking at Arrogance last night, and hadn't weighed in on this thread yet.

Me too.

Quote

After looking at it and reading the thread, I agree that Arrogance's SA isn't finished until you have finished playing cards.

And by the same token (i.e., abilities must complete), no Dominants could be played either. Correct?

Quote from: STAMP on January 02, 2009, 11:44:05 AM

I wouldn't have posted in error if the information I consulted wasn't misleading.

Excuses, excuses.*

It seems whenever there are no ECs that have a certain SA, they get listed as Evil Enhancement Character cards in the Online REG.

*I'm just kidding STAMP. I've faced the same problem before.

News:

Author Topic: Arrogance off Swift Horses (Read 9028 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef