Author Topic: Re-examination of NJ  (Read 6630 times)

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 02:06:24 PM »
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Quote from: YeshuaIsLord
Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

About the only negative to TSC is that it can be stopped/hindered by anti-search abilities like Hezekiah's Signet Ring. New Jerusalem was boosted somewhat in the Revelation of John set by New Jerusalem/Bride of Christ, One of Seven, and The Woman with Child (which also boosts TSC), but it definitely is much weaker than TSC as we all know. I agree that it is sad and I'm definitely hoping that something will be done through this thread!  :)

I'm also all for nerfing TSC, but sadly, boosting NJ is not the best way to go about that. 

Now, if TSC gets an errata where it can't be in the same deck as SoG (instead of NJ), and NJ can be played with other players' SoGs...  That would be more interesting  ;)

I still think that changing dominant initiative to one per person before passing, with the exception of NJ since it says simultaneously, would be a good way to nerf TSC. Giving your opponent a chance to play Vain Philosophy or Mayhem between SoG and TSC (but not SoG and NJ) would hurt it without nerfing it to the ground, doesn't hurt the spirit of the card like making it unusable with SoG would, and makes dominants, one of if not the least interactive mechanics in the game, more interactive.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 04:38:50 PM »
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Unlike NJ, TSC promotes strategy. This makes for more interesting games. I don't expect we're doing to do anything that takes us backwards by making NJ more desirable than TSC.
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 05:43:06 PM »
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I personally dont think any change is needed for NJ. I wish it wasnt a dead card if you draw it early but at the same point TSC will likely be until you get SoG. Just because it can be more strategic and versatile still doesnt change the fact it is primarly used to play after SOG for an additional soul. The biggest difference is if youre at 4 and have TSC you can win but not NJ and TSC lets you use SOG a lot earlier. These advantages wont affect most games though and with proper deck building there shouldnt be a big difference. The way I look at it is unless you are trying to compete at the highest level or collect everything there isnt much to justify that TSC is better especially with the huge price difference. I think its fine to have a reasonably priced easier to obtain alternative to TSC that is less competitive because not every card needs to be competitive at the highest level and good deckbuilding is ultimately more important than the difference between the two.

Offline Master Q

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2018, 06:12:29 PM »
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Agree with Gabe, why make a second dom rescue easier? I thought we were getting away from that?

What I really want to see is a NJ reprint that can compete with TSC without granting another dom rescue.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2018, 06:18:08 PM »
+1
Wait, how does TSC promote strategy?
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Offline bluefrog1288

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2018, 06:23:00 PM »
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The versatility of the card. It can fetch other dominants.  I definitely want to steer away from dominant rescues.  I like the battles!

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 07:34:04 PM »
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Making NJ better promotes strategy in deck building because you have to decide if you want to use the better card in TSC, or use the less good NJ that you can search for easier.  This change to NJ won't make it better than TSC, just a bit less worse than it, people will still use TSC over NJ in almost every deck, unless they build to search for NJ, so this change for NJ can only help the game

Offline Gabe

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 07:45:55 PM »
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Not if another players NJ trumps the active players TSC during Dom inish as some have suggested. That’s an option I cannot realistically consider. I’m all for making NJ more playable if a good solution is found.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 10:46:33 PM »
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Well the active player would have to give up Dom inish before the next player could play a Dom right? Just change simultaneously to mean in the same phase and the rules of Dom inish should take care of the rest.  Activate player gets to play all the doms they want, then other players get to play the doms they want in turn order. Since it's still same phase NJ would still work if simultaneously means same phase

Offline SEB

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2018, 07:51:27 AM »
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Simply make the definition of "Simultaneously" something similar to this:

"When a card has an ability that allows it to be played simultaneously with another card, and that other card is played, the card with the simultaneous ability may be played immediately before the triggering card is activated.  The simultaneous ability is now pending, but it cannot activate while the first card is completing.  The triggering card is then carried out, and the simultaneous card will activate once the triggering card has completed."


Sorry, my feed didnt pick up the last parts of this thread.

Changing the keyword "simultaneous" to mean "in the same phase as [condition]" is fine if NJ is the only card to have that keyword, but I think Josh's rule addition would be a very smart thing for the game. If worked through in test playing and worded carefully, this could open up some new creative space. I can see some really great interactions with this kind of mechanic. Well done, Josh.

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Offline Josh

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2018, 08:19:26 AM »
+3
Unlike NJ, TSC promotes strategy. This makes for more interesting games.

TSC gives you more decisions to make, but those decisions are still autopilot decisions.  Is there a LS in opponent's LoB that is ruining your deck?  Play SoG earlier, since TSC can bail you out later. 

These advantages wont affect most games though and with proper deck building there shouldnt be a big difference.

The big thing missing from your analysis is that playing SoG twice (and possibly much earlier in the game) is huge when LS abilities can be oppressive against certain decks.  Being able to dump SoG early to get rid of your opponent's Dull can easily be game-changing.  Can't do that if you have to hold SoG and wait for NJ.

I definitely want to steer away from dominant rescues.  I like the battles!

I (and it seems like most other players) agree with this, but TSC doesn't really change this vs. NJ.  TSC is just another SoG or AotL rescue.  You still redeem 3 LS each game w/ SoG/TSC/AotL, the only difference is you don't know which Dom TSC is going to copy.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2018, 09:04:20 AM »
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Unlike NJ, TSC promotes strategy. This makes for more interesting games.

TSC gives you more decisions to make, but those decisions are still autopilot decisions.  Is there a LS in opponent's LoB that is ruining your deck?  Play SoG earlier, since TSC can bail you out later. 

These advantages wont affect most games though and with proper deck building there shouldnt be a big difference.

The big thing missing from your analysis is that playing SoG twice (and possibly much earlier in the game) is huge when LS abilities can be oppressive against certain decks.  Being able to dump SoG early to get rid of your opponent's Dull can easily be game-changing.  Can't do that if you have to hold SoG and wait for NJ.

I definitely want to steer away from dominant rescues.  I like the battles!

I (and it seems like most other players) agree with this, but TSC doesn't really change this vs. NJ.  TSC is just another SoG or AotL rescue.  You still redeem 3 LS each game w/ SoG/TSC/AotL, the only difference is you don't know which Dom TSC is going to copy.
+1 versatility≠ strategy
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