Poll

Who is the better hero

King David
11 (37.9%)
Angel under the Oak
18 (62.1%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: April 20, 2014, 11:54:24 PM

Author Topic: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)  (Read 6120 times)

Offline jbeers285

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Silver
1.   Angel Under the Oak
8/8 Silver (angel, prophet)
You may draw 2 and exchange this Hero with a gold Judge in your hand, deck, territory, or discard pile. Protect Gideon from opponents. Cannot be negated.

Versus

Purple
2.   King David
11/11 Purple (Prophet, King of Israel, Musician)
May not be blocked by any member of any royal family.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2014, 07:04:25 AM »
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I can just about guarantee this one coming down to only 2 votes to determine the winner.  Everyone loves/hates AutO and everyone overvalues KD.

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2014, 07:39:22 AM »
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Hmmm. A D2, exchange for a judge in deck or discard pile, can be searched out by W3, and cannot be captured by charms or unholy writ vs some King who ignores royalty. Yeah Auto wins pretty easily.
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2014, 09:45:09 AM »
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Foreign Wive hurts AutO a ton and she makes the cut in 80% of decks (if not more)

Wives on the other hand benefits King David. 1 she is a wasted card slot against him ( as are most defenses) plus if throne is in play wives gets you a d7 that's right 7 and wives still can't block you.

The Band from Abigail to David is so powerful. UK off David with access to Isaiah, Abigail and or any FBTN hero is super powerful.

Also the ability to use Temple Dedication Preblock to protect King David is more reason I think he should beat AutO here.

KD provides issues for almost every defense in the game.  Granted both AutO and David make the cut in most spread decks but AutO is way less valuable when your opponent puts wives in play while KD's value greatly increases.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 11:06:56 AM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2014, 10:33:47 AM »
+1
A card tends to have less value if it needs a multitude of support to actually make it good. Especially from support that has limited range by itself.

All you need to make Auto do what he does best is Auto itself.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2014, 10:49:26 AM »
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There are two types of people: those who think AUTO is overpowered and one of if not the best card in the game, and those who think he isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. I tend to fall towards the former group, if for no other reason than the fact that cards like Wives and GC wouldn't have been printed if AUTO didn't exist.

There are two other types of people: those who think King David is overpowered and one of if not the best card in the game, and those who think he isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. I tend to fall into the latter group, if for no other reason than the fact that I tend not to play much evil royalty. My current deck uses Assyrian/Magician defense - with no Assyrian kings. The only times King David matters is if my only ECs are Manny and Wives - he never gets initiative unless I block with a horseless ASA or a band. When I played a Sam deck, I used KD occasionally, but for the most part he was just another person for Sam to search out for his draw. Unless the opponent is using royalty, KD does little.
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 10:59:45 AM »
+1
A card tends to have less value if it needs a multitude of support to actually make it good. Especially from support that has limited range by itself.

All you need to make Auto do what he does best is Auto itself.

For some reason I seem to think auto needs some judges and enhancements to do anything. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe by itself d2 is way more powerful then ignore royalty is by itself.

Was that your point d2 > ignore royalty?

@TH. I think evaluating the power of a card against the defense you play is too small of a sample size.  I could build a deck that counters auto at every level and then post it here and say how auto doesn't do much. For instance I run a defense with Signet Ring, Naz, RBD, GC, foreign wives, HHI.  Now auto does very little against my defense but KD is unaffected by those counters.   1 specific match up doesn't determine anything. Especially when there is no clear meta defense right now.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 11:09:57 AM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2014, 11:22:56 AM »
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The best thing Auto does is tutor any Judge from any zone, protect Gideon, and the d2. To enable any of those things I just actually need Auto himself. The strongest plays that involve Auto tend to be Auto into Moses or Gideon, and again, I only need a singleton card to make either of those cards live from anywhere. I find tremendous value in any card that are cantrips, but Auto goes beyond that by being a cantrip on legs that does not sacrifice any threat potential when going into battle. When you're also able to loop that d2+threat every single turn and push your opponent outside the realm of recovering in card parity, you truly have a broken card.
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browarod

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 11:29:22 AM »
+1
A card tends to have less value if it needs a multitude of support to actually make it good. Especially from support that has limited range by itself.

All you need to make Auto do what he does best is Auto itself.

For some reason I seem to think auto needs some judges and enhancements to do anything.
This exactly. I find it laughable when people say AUtO is good "by himself" when all he does other than draw is fetch and give protection to other cards. If we're evaluating cards in a vacuum of space where no other cards exist then AUtO is probably the worst Hero of any that made it to the top 8 since he's just an 8/8 angel that draws 2. PBI would beat that hands down.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 11:38:58 AM »
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I don't believe anyone has said anything in this thread as of yet of Auto being good 'by himself.' Obviously cards require certain interactions in order to achieve optimal game states. Auto just requires a whole lot less to achieve that game state.

However, what I did find laughable was undervaluing Auto in a limited format (perhaps easily the best practical representation of evaluating cards in a vacuum). A d2 in a silver 8/8 body would hands down be one of my first draft picks.
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browarod

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 11:50:41 AM »
+1
I don't believe anyone has said anything in this thread as of yet of Auto being good 'by himself.'
A card tends to have less value if it needs a multitude of support to actually make it good. Especially from support that has limited range by itself.

All you need to make Auto do what he does best is Auto itself.
I also find it interesting that you talk about needing support and that the support has limited range when AUtO literally only fits in one theme whereas KD, or at least the KD support cards, can end up in several. Also, KD doesn't specifically need anything else to "do what he does best" since "what he does best" is PBI royalty which he does all by himself. :P

However, what I did find laughable was undervaluing Auto in a limited format (perhaps easily the best practical representation of evaluating cards in a vacuum). A d2 in a silver 8/8 body would hands down be one of my first draft picks.
I guess it depends what you mean by "limited format." In Booster Draft, for example, I would take KD over AUtO in all cases.

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 12:16:51 PM »
+1
I don't believe anyone has said anything in this thread as of yet of Auto being good 'by himself.'

A card tends to have less value if it needs a multitude of support to actually make it good. Especially from support that has limited range by itself.

All you need to make Auto do what he does best is Auto itself.

MKC I tend to agree with you on lots of things but this one cracks me. 

Back on topic

I find KD alone wins tons of battles off PBI and sometimes the fact that he is huge 11/11 wins battles as well.  I don't think you add the value of the judges with auto without giving David throne, temple dedication and at the least Abigail.

Samuel=Abigail
Jair=throne
Gideon>Isaiah
Moses=temple dedication (which by the tutors Lampstand or GC)
Striking Herod<council of Abigail
WWW=Samuel
Jeptha=effectiveness against FW

This leaves Auto Vs KD
and 
KD (PBI) > AutO (d2)
KD wins souls > AutO tutors a judge who wins souls
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 12:26:39 PM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Josh

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 12:18:52 PM »
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For some reason I seem to think auto needs some judges and enhancements to do anything.
This exactly. I find it laughable when people say AUtO is good "by himself" when all he does other than draw is fetch and give protection to other cards. If we're evaluating cards in a vacuum of space where no other cards exist then AUtO is probably the worst Hero of any that made it to the top 8 since he's just an 8/8 angel that draws 2. PBI would beat that hands down.

The difference between AUTO and KD is that AUTO is or tutors all the "equivalent" KD support cards.

1.  AUTO's D2 vs. KD's draw off of TToD:  AUTO gets the D2, CBN, without support.  KD needs TToD in play first.
2.  AUTO's protection of Gideon vs. KD's protection via Temple Dedication:  AUTO tutors Gideon.  KD does not tutor Temple Dedication.  Also, KD can still be stopped by artifacts and Grapes.
3.  AUTO's access to various awesome Judges (Moses, Gideon, Jair, Ehud, Samuel) vs. KD's access to awesome support cards (TToD, Abigail, Unified Kingdom, Isaiah, Temple Dedication):  AUTO tutors all of the awesome Judges from basically anywhere.  KD tutors nothing.

Pretty much the only thing KD has going for him that AUTO can't compare with is the preblock ignore, which is not enough to put him over the top.

In fact, KD has quickly become a Redemption darling because of the existence of FW as a T1 staple...  ...When FW was printed to specifically hard-counter AUTO.  Irony.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 01:10:31 PM »
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I also find it interesting that you talk about needing support and that the support has limited range when AUtO literally only fits in one theme whereas KD, or at least the KD support cards, can end up in several.

Here is what is meant by cards that have limited range:
Abigail: meh
UK: meh
Temple Dedication: Almost meh, 1for1's have obvious inconsistencies and repercussions.

Throne is the only decent interaction I see with King David as it also has impactful applications besides being used with just KD. But Throne usually means OT Royalty, which is still decidedly meh in comparison to the other T1 meta powerhouse offenses.

I'm also curious to see what other 'themes' KD and KD support cards can fit into besides, well, OT Royalty. Randompurple.dek doesn't count either.

Quote
Also, KD doesn't specifically need anything else to "do what he does best" since "what he does best" is PBI royalty which he does all by himself. :P

Timothy is also the best at not starting rescue attempts. That doesn't make him a good card.

Quote
I guess it depends what you mean by "limited format." In Booster Draft, for example, I would take KD over AUtO in all cases.

The reason to take KD in limited is for the huge numbers. The ability is even more unreliable than in constructed and is negligible most of the time. However, 8/8 is huge as well in limited. Drawing more cards is not negligible, as I most certainly always have a deck and the draw is nigh guaranteed. And oh yeah, there's that angel subtype thing too. The absolute nuts in limited.

Auto also gets bonus points because he can actually show up in limited. So nyah.

I don't think you add the value of the judges with auto without giving David throne, temple dedication and at the least Abigail.

I am not mitigating the value that KD support brings to the table. I think the biggest point I made that keeps getting missed is the fact that just a singleton Auto can establish continual drawing that leaves a threat on board, while it takes a multitude of support for KD to even get to par. UK and Abigail are for the most part just a bunch of big numbers (unless a FBTN hero is present off the UK, which Purple is certainly not known for). UK and Temple Dedication are one-of's that only become value once paired with a KD. Throne I have already given credit to, but again limits a deck in focus to only OT Royalty. Throne also doesn't even guarantee value and still must be paired with another card to generate a win condition. I'm sorry, but in most cases KD will either require drawing 3 specific cards to the grip or the inconsistency of a 1for1 in the deck to achieve putting any sort of immediate threat on board. Auto just requires getting Auto himself into the grip. That's value.

Quote
KD (PBI) > AutO (d2)

Detailed above why Auto is better than KD in a vacuum.

Quote
KD wins souls > AutO tutors a judge who wins souls

They both achieve the same thing. How is that not a push based on your exact words?

However, it should actually be:
KD wins souls > Auto tutors a judge who wins souls + d2

I also implore you to think which scenario will have more likelihood of pulling in a Lost Soul: PBI Royalty or FBTN? I think the answer is fairly obvious.
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Offline TechnoEthicist

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 01:50:41 PM »
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David I can handle 95% of the time, Oak constantly goes back into hiding and brings out whatever foil my opponent needs against my deck, even without the +2 to drawing...

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 02:05:30 PM »
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David I can handle 95% of the time, Oak constantly goes back into hiding and brings out whatever foil my opponent needs against my deck, even without the +2 to drawing...

Just cuz you run Assyrians and CWD lol :)
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Offline TechnoEthicist

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 02:26:08 PM »
+1
or my demons (sans KoT) or my Pharisees or my Philistines (if I still did that defense)... ;D

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2014, 02:28:40 PM »
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It appears the AutO is getting the repeat. Guess it's time to print a better version of foreign wives that can go in every deck.

Perhaps a site in every color that's says
"While occupied AutO cannot enter battle"
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2014, 02:43:25 PM »
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It appears the AutO is getting the repeat. Guess it's time to print a better version of foreign wives that can go in every deck.

Perhaps a site in every color that's says
"While occupied AutO cannot enter battle"

And this is the sum of it. KD has been around for years, as has much of his support, but there haven't been cards printed with the express purpose of stopping him. AUTO, on the other hand...
ANB is good. Change my mind.

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2014, 02:44:36 PM »
+1
Perhaps a site in every color that's says
"While occupied AutO cannot enter battle"
I'd play it.

Turn 1 King David wins games. Turn 1 AutO is nice.

Offline joeychips

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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2014, 03:23:20 PM »
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Can you d2 but not exchange him with a judge?
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Re: Championship Rd (1 Silver Angel Under the Oak Vs 2 Purple King David)
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2014, 03:29:31 PM »
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Can you d2 but not exchange him with a judge?
Yes, just like you can exchange without drawing.

 


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