Author Topic: Do you know what a double nickel is? (Read 9537 times)

Alex_Olijar · « **on:** June 28, 2013, 08:14:17 PM »

Please don't spoil what it is if you know. I was just curious if anyone besides Gabe or MKC knows. This is a future Redemption MetaGaming topic.

JSB23 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2013, 08:26:32 PM »

That's the reason I always insist my opponents' do a normal shuffle as well.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2013, 08:52:36 PM »

It's the reason I always reserve my right to shuffle my opponents deck.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2013, 08:56:38 PM »

the national speed limit of 55 miles per hour as established in 1974 on U.S. highways. boi.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2013, 09:14:52 PM »

A steak house in Texas.

Bobbert · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2013, 10:49:07 PM »

Voted no, then googled it and realized I do (and can apply it), just not by that name.

Isildur · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2013, 10:56:39 PM »

Quote from: Thomas Hunter on June 28, 2013, 10:49:07 PM

Voted no, then googled it and realized I do (and can apply it), just not by that name.

Same!

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:21:29 PM »

I also didn't know what it was without googling it. However I have long been aware of the possibility of people doing this sort of thing. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:32:21 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 28, 2013, 11:21:29 PM

I also didn't know what it was without googling it. However I have long been aware of the possibility of people doing this sort of thing. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.

FWIW, Pokemon has never had a big issue with it until recently. And it's still not a "big" issue, it's just been brought to light recently.

Magic has always had Mana-Weaving though.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:37:09 PM »

I klnow know what is is. I just dont understand it really. isnt it just stacking your deck?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2013, 11:52:40 PM »

It's a little bit more intricate than stacking and more importantly it doesn't look incredibly suspicious based on how most people normally shuffle. We will be doing a segment on it next video. Westy and I can both it fairl proficiently (it's not hard if you know math though to be fair).

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #11 on:** June 29, 2013, 12:09:50 AM »

It's probably the easiest of the myriad ways of cheating.

For one, unlike palming, you don't actually have to have any dexterity or any other physical ability to do it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** June 29, 2013, 12:10:21 AM »

My question:

Wouldn't double nickeling be both an advantage AND a disadvantage to a deck in redemption?

You may get a more even flow of characters and enhancements, but lost souls as well. So, you may get a smoother draw, but the opponent won't be facing a soul drought.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #13 on:** June 29, 2013, 12:13:24 AM »

Lambo,

Yes, you're technically correct. However, other games are going for those consistent draws, in Redemption, you want lost soul clumps, so you simply modify your stacks, you're no longer truly doing a double-nickel, but you are still manipulating the card order, hopefully resulting in a clump of souls towards the bottom. I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** June 29, 2013, 07:39:25 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 28, 2013, 11:21:29 PM

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.

You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments. This is another major reason (besides money) that I will not be hosting tournaments any higher than a District any more.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on June 29, 2013, 12:13:24 AM

I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.

So we will have a video teaching people how to cheat?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #15 on:** June 29, 2013, 07:41:52 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2013, 07:39:25 AM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on June 29, 2013, 12:13:24 AM
I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.

So we will have a video teaching people how to cheat?

If somebody wants to cheat, they can figure it out pretty easily. Cheating is easy. Showing people what to look for and why it's cheating is an entirely different story. Catching cheaters can be pretty hard, but awareness is key in this. I would hope that nobody in Redemption would do such a thing, but we just can't expect everybody to be perfect, so we do what we can to prevent it.

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** June 29, 2013, 08:51:46 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2013, 07:39:25 AM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 28, 2013, 11:21:29 PM
Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.

You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments. This is another major reason (besides money) that I will not be hosting tournaments any higher than a District any more.

He is naive and you are rediculous. We live in a sin cursed world. The fact some people are dishonest shouldn't be a reason to stop hosting.(money is valid however)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2013, 09:15:00 AM »

Quote from: Westy on June 29, 2013, 07:41:52 AM

If somebody wants to cheat, they can figure it out pretty easily. Cheating is easy.

I agree with your sentiment in general, but I have found that these things educate people who are not good cheaters to be better cheaters. It also instills ideas in people who might not otherwise have thought of trying it. Naturally this will depend on the presentation, which I know you guys will slant toward cheat prevention, but I still caution that this idea may backfire.

Quote from: Red on June 29, 2013, 08:51:46 AM

He is naive and you are rediculous. We live in a sin cursed world. The fact some people are dishonest shouldn't be a reason to stop hosting.(money is valid however)

I see no reason why I should spend my money to fuel the over-competitive nature of certain individuals. My players work hard to improve their decks and try to do well at tournaments. To have "ringers" come in and take all the prizes, sometimes dishonestly, does not give me incentive to keep funding them.

As a disclaimer, I will likely keep hosting local and/or district tournaments for my playgroup (when money allows), but I will not be hosting larger tournaments, which is where all of my negative experiences have taken place. There is nothing "rediculous" about that. BTW, was that misspelling intentional because of your screen name? If so, that was awesome.

Red · « **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2013, 09:24:03 AM »

I just don't know how to spell that word... But onto my point. Unless people are dishonest or bad sports "Over-Competitive" isn't something that really exists in my book. Competetition isn't truly a bad thing. If players are trying to improve honestly(not through cheating) they should be focusing on improving play skill(I will have a series of videos and articles to teach basic play strategy.)

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2013, 09:30:03 AM »

If there is a problem with a certain person cheating, then mabey do something to make it harder on htem. dont make a public display of it, but mabey have them give you there deck in between games so they cant stack their deck or something.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2013, 09:34:30 AM »

Quote from: Red on June 29, 2013, 09:24:03 AM

I just don't know how to spell that word...

Oh, nvm. I had to override the i with an e because my spell-checker corrected it automatically. It must be my OS. I thought you had done that, too. I was not making light of your spelling. We all have words that drive us crazy trying to spell correctly.

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on June 29, 2013, 09:30:03 AM

If there is a problem with a certain person cheating, then mabey do something to make it harder on htem. dont make a public display of it, but mabey have them give you there deck in between games so they cant stack their deck or something.

I have tried to subtly let them know that I am on to them. However, as a host, I don't have time to be keeping track of a potential cheater throughout the tournament. I can do that as a teacher in school, but that is not what I like to do in my free time during a hobby.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:33:52 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 29, 2013, 12:10:21 AM

Wouldn't double nickeling be both an advantage AND a disadvantage to a deck in redemption?

You may get a more even flow of characters and enhancements, but lost souls as well. So, you may get a smoother draw, but the opponent won't be facing a soul drought.

True, that is why--for the professional Redemption cheat--I suggest what I call the 7x15 shuffle in T2. You start with a 105-card deck that has all the Lost souls near the top and everything else interleaved. Then you do a 15-pile Cactus shuffle, put all the cards back together into a big deck and then do a 7-pile cactus shuffle. (Look how awesome I am--I shuffled my desk twice just to be safe.

) This technique will--by the inexorable laws of mathematics--return the deck to the original unshuffled state. The only drawback is that your opponent must be an unwitting co-conspirator to get this to work. If your opponent declines the offer to cut your deck then you have an almost guaranteed loss as you will end up drawing all of your lost souls on the initial 8-card pull.*

The same thing would also work in a 7x8 shuffle for a certain-sized deck in T1 deck, but if you want to find out more on how that technique works, you need to pay for my advanced course.

*When faced with this happenstance I use my patented "hide lost souls in my hand and artifact pile" technique. This is also taught in the advanced course.

Quote from: Westy on June 29, 2013, 07:41:52 AM

If somebody wants to cheat, they can figure it out pretty easily.

Of they could simply pay for my all inclusive bells and whistle advanced course.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #22 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:40:26 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2013, 07:39:25 AM

You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments.

Are you exaggerating on purpose here? Because I was at the FL state tournament last year, and I don't remember there being any serious cheating happening there. I think there was one player who played a bit overly slow, but they were a young kid, so that's understandable. I also think I remember my own daughter kept more than 8 cards in her hand at one point (also a poor choice common among young players). But both of these situations were dealt with very easily, and didn't seem to affect the overall tournament experience of anyone there. Everyone seemed to have a good time.

So did something terrible happen that I just didn't pick up on, or have you actually had a positive experience with a major tournament?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #23 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:17:03 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 29, 2013, 10:40:26 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2013, 07:39:25 AM
You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments.
Are you exaggerating on purpose here? Because I was at the FL state tournament last year, and I don't remember there being any serious cheating happening there. I think there was one player who played a bit overly slow, but they were a young kid, so that's understandable. I also think I remember my own daughter kept more than 8 cards in her hand at one point (also a poor choice common among young players). But both of these situations were dealt with very easily, and didn't seem to affect the overall tournament experience of anyone there. Everyone seemed to have a good time.

So did something terrible happen that I just didn't pick up on, or have you actually had a positive experience with a major tournament?

Same here? O_o; I might of just missed something.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:32:21 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on June 29, 2013, 12:13:24 AM

Lambo,

Yes, you're technically correct. However, other games are going for those consistent draws, in Redemption, you want lost soul clumps, so you simply modify your stacks, you're no longer truly doing a double-nickel, but you are still manipulating the card order, hopefully resulting in a clump of souls towards the bottom. I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.

I use the term double nickel primarily to draw awareness. You are correct that I will probably spend most of the time discussing the lumping of souls. With proper cutting, I can probably place my bottom 10 with all 7 souls. Granted, my opponent cutting would mean I need some luck, but it would work enough at a big tournament to be worth trying.

I think Westy has been working on a more standard double nickel. I personally don't see a ton of value in it unless you do it in the first round and place groups of 8 cards together (aka hands) that each give you a combo rescue and combo block. It's just extremely hard to do.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2013, 07:39:25 AM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 28, 2013, 11:21:29 PM
Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.

You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments. This is another major reason (besides money) that I will not be hosting tournaments any higher than a District any more.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on June 29, 2013, 12:13:24 AM
I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.

So we will have a video teaching people how to cheat?

The video will detail what it is, how to notice it, and what to do if you suspect it is happening. Awareness is the biggest issue. Because pile shuffling is standard, doing a double 5 pile shuffle would not be out of the ordinary (I personally use a 8 pile shuffle to manipulate, but its also really easy to tell I'm manipulating if you watch what I do closely enough). We will also suggest ways to shuffle that aren't possible to manipulate so that you don't get wrongly accused (spoiler alert: 7 pile shuffle, 10+ rifles, overhand).

News:

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I know what a double nickel is:

Author Topic: Do you know what a double nickel is? (Read 9537 times)

TheHobbit13

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk