Author Topic: Heroic Nephilim (Read 15812 times)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #50 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:40:27 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 11:14:42 PM

... however I just don't see enough from the passage in question that allows you to lump these guys in with witches, vampires, etc.

I wasn't talking about that "passage." I was talking about "historical context." I don't know the origin of the term "witch," but it has traditionally been used as an evil term. Whether or not the Nephilim actually were born from fallen angels is irrelevant to the common depiction of them as being so. You can't change a long-standing perception with a Redemption card.

Gabe · « **Reply #51 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:55:38 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 28, 2018, 11:40:27 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 11:14:42 PM
... however I just don't see enough from the passage in question that allows you to lump these guys in with witches, vampires, etc.

I wasn't talking about that "passage." I was talking about "historical context." I don't know the origin of the term "witch," but it has traditionally been used as an evil term. Whether or not the Nephilim actually were born from fallen angels is irrelevant to the common depiction of them as being so. You can't change a long-standing perception with a Redemption card.

I'm unfamiliar with the "historical context" and long standing perception that you speak of. I don't believe a cultural bias that isn't grounded in scripture carries nearly the same weight, but if one exists I'd like to be familiar with it so we can consider all viewpoints as we move forward. Do you care to elaborate?

YeshuaIsLord · « **Reply #52 on:** March 29, 2018, 06:37:07 AM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 10:24:32 PM

The issue is that to fit the current card's position in the set it needs to be Black, Pale Green, Red, Blue, a Giant, a Warrior, and an Antediluvian. Each one of things is very important to this card.

Is theological accuracy important? At all?

Sadness · « **Reply #53 on:** March 29, 2018, 07:03:08 AM »

Ran across two websites for y'all to check out. Wiki and answersingenesis.org both have different viewpoints and researchers debating the verses in question.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #54 on:** March 29, 2018, 08:48:22 AM »

Quote from: YeshuaIsLord on March 29, 2018, 06:37:07 AM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 10:24:32 PM
The issue is that to fit the current card's position in the set it needs to be Black, Pale Green, Red, Blue, a Giant, a Warrior, and an Antediluvian. Each one of things is very important to this card.
Is theological accuracy important? At all?

You are asking this for a game in which there are Lost Souls which the card titled Son of God cannot rescue?

Watchman · « **Reply #55 on:** March 29, 2018, 08:59:33 AM »

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on March 29, 2018, 08:52:30 AM

At least the New Son of God can rescue all the Lost Souls in the game except for the Three Liner.

New or old SoG can rescue the two or three liner. I believe what you meant was the new SoG can’t negate the liners.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 29, 2018, 09:35:00 AM »

Quote from: Four_Corners5 on March 29, 2018, 08:52:30 AM

At least the New Son of God can rescue all the Lost Souls in the game except for the Three Liner.

Even the New Son of God cannot rescue half of the souls in any game.

NathanW · « **Reply #57 on:** March 29, 2018, 11:46:34 AM »

It's really not the Hero that rescues the lost soul from a theological viewpoint rather the Hero is a means by which the lost soul is rescued... you could equally say it would be wrong to promote the idea that the only means by which God can change the heart of unbelievers is through those that already believe in him. This is illustrated many times in the history of the Israelites when God used the evil nations surrounding them to bring his people closer. It really annoys me that we always say "the hero rescues the lost soul" but that's a fact about how the game is played, and not a theological statement IMHO.

Red · « **Reply #58 on:** March 29, 2018, 01:37:33 PM »

My biggest question at this point is what kind of research is being done from a biblical studies and church historical standpoint to determine alignment and identifiers. This is the same issue as all of the disciples not being martyrs. This kind of thing is my academic discipline and I wish I knew more about the sources used to make these kind of judgment calls.

spacy32 · « **Reply #59 on:** March 29, 2018, 02:00:08 PM »

Quote from: jesse on March 27, 2018, 12:49:37 PM

Please excuse the bold - it is not "yelling" - I'm just trying to separate my commentary from the Scripture so it's easier to read

Humans and angels/demons are different - they cannot interbreed.

"But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another." - 1 Corinthians 15:38-40

God would never allow a half-demon/half-human to exist, because it would be impossible for them to either serve God as an angel or be saved as a human (because Jesus died for humanity - Adam, Eve, and their offspring).

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." - 1 Corinthians 15:41-50

It was because of this that God ordained his people to wipe the nephilim of the face of the Earth. The Angels who came to Earth were disobedient to God's will by mating with the daughters of man. The saw the beauty of the daughters of man and wanted it for their own. Angels who disobey God are no longer angels. They are fallen Angels.

NathanW · « **Reply #60 on:** March 29, 2018, 02:01:00 PM »

EDIT: This didn't help the discussion how I thought it would.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #61 on:** March 29, 2018, 02:05:28 PM »

@Red, we use the Bible as a primary source and then anything else as a means to help us understand the Bible more accurately. Very often from my perspective, I am challenged to think about the text differently than I had in the past since we have a variety of viewpoints represented in our team.

@TripplePlayNa1, very well put and spot on.

@spacy32, I have even come across perspectives that say that the evil spirits that Jesus encountered were the souls of those demon/human half-breeds whose soul had no place to go after their bodies died. Not saying I buy that, but it is an interesting concept I had not considered before.

One question I have in relation to the Nephilim, if they are in fact simply larger humans born from a genetic confluence with fallen angels (i.e. demons who put on a human disguise like angels did quite often), is why does God continue to show them who he is if it is not to save their souls. When David defeats Goliath, he does so with an aim at letting the whole world "know that there is a God in Israel". Are the giants something God allowed to show his power and might so others would come to know Yahweh or was God reaching out to the giants themselves so that they would come to know him? Just something I thought about in studying this topic.

Xonathan · « **Reply #62 on:** March 29, 2018, 02:21:55 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 02:05:28 PM

@Red, we use the Bible as a primary source and then anything else as a means to help us understand the Bible more accurately. Very often from my perspective, I am challenged to think about the text differently than I had in the past since we have a variety of viewpoints represented in our team.

@TripplePlayNa1, very well put and spot on.

@spacy32, I have even come across perspectives that say that the evil spirits that Jesus encountered were the souls of those demon/human half-breeds whose soul had no place to go after their bodies died. Not saying I buy that, but it is an interesting concept I had not considered before.

One question I have in relation to the Nephilim, if they are in fact simply larger humans born from a genetic confluence with fallen angels (i.e. demons who put on a human disguise like angels did quite often), is why does God continue to show them who he is if it is not to save their souls. When David defeats Goliath, he does so with an aim at letting the whole world "know that there is a God in Israel". Are the giants something God allowed to show his power and might so others would come to know Yahweh or was God reaching out to the giants themselves so that they would come to know him? Just something I thought about in studying this topic.

“As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" Jesus answered, " It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
John‬ 9:1-3‬ NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/jhn.9.1-3.nasb

Maybe you’re on to something with the Giants

The Schaefer · « **Reply #63 on:** March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM »

I think that precedent for this situation has presented itself already, although with less of a heated debate, in ROJ with the Martyr identifier. Certain disciples were not given the Martyr identifier because of conflicting evidence and viewpoints based on biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints. The Nephilim being potentially not all evil or potentially good is of conflicting biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints as well so it seems weird that the nephilim seem to be getting different treatment than the disciples being martyrs situation.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #64 on:** March 29, 2018, 03:21:32 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM

I think that precedent for this situation has presented itself already, although with less of a heated debate, in ROJ with the Martyr identifier. Certain disciples were not given the Martyr identifier because of conflicting evidence and viewpoints based on biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints. The Nephilim being potentially not all evil or potentially good is of conflicting biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints as well so it seems weird that the nephilim seem to be getting different treatment than the disciples being martyrs situation.

I think that comparison would be more valid if the Nephilim were being made only Hero. By being DA, the card is saying they necessarily were Heroes; it's saying they might have been.

spacy32 · « **Reply #65 on:** March 29, 2018, 03:45:42 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 02:05:28 PM

@Red, we use the Bible as a primary source and then anything else as a means to help us understand the Bible more accurately. Very often from my perspective, I am challenged to think about the text differently than I had in the past since we have a variety of viewpoints represented in our team.

@TripplePlayNa1, very well put and spot on.

@spacy32, I have even come across perspectives that say that the evil spirits that Jesus encountered were the souls of those demon/human half-breeds whose soul had no place to go after their bodies died. Not saying I buy that, but it is an interesting concept I had not considered before.

One question I have in relation to the Nephilim, if they are in fact simply larger humans born from a genetic confluence with fallen angels (i.e. demons who put on a human disguise like angels did quite often), is why does God continue to show them who he is if it is not to save their souls. When David defeats Goliath, he does so with an aim at letting the whole world "know that there is a God in Israel". Are the giants something God allowed to show his power and might so others would come to know Yahweh or was God reaching out to the giants themselves so that they would come to know him? Just something I thought about in studying this topic.

I'm under the Romans answer. God hardened Pharaoh's heart to show his power. God sent his people to destroy them again to show his power. The giants would not choose God because it is not in their sinful nature.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #66 on:** March 29, 2018, 03:49:19 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 29, 2018, 03:21:32 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
I think that precedent for this situation has presented itself already, although with less of a heated debate, in ROJ with the Martyr identifier. Certain disciples were not given the Martyr identifier because of conflicting evidence and viewpoints based on biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints. The Nephilim being potentially not all evil or potentially good is of conflicting biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints as well so it seems weird that the nephilim seem to be getting different treatment than the disciples being martyrs situation.

I think that comparison would be more valid if the Nephilim were being made only Hero. By being DA, the card is saying they necessarily were Heroes; it's saying they might have been.

I disagree with that assertion. I don't think you can make something DA because it might have been. To me DA is saying that it was both good and evil and there is evidence to support it. It might of been doesn't really hold much water to me to support anything at all. But I've also commented a lot on here and I don't want to just argue with everyone over it so I'm done. I have serious issues with the nephilim being good, I'm fine with my view being challenged but it doesn't change what implications making the nephilim good can have. If a trustworthy biblical/historical source is present that demonstrates the nephilim being good I will concede all issues with it. Until then it is cryptic interpretation at best imo.

Sorry if I've been ranting or seem offensive folks. Hopefully this just serves to show that our human knowledge is imperfect and reliance on the lord is key in all things.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #67 on:** March 29, 2018, 04:19:58 PM »

So I am continuing to delve into this topic and now I am not sure Ham should be a Hero either...LOL.

Check out this article and take it for what it's worth: http://beginningandend.com/bloodlines-of-the-nephilim-a-biblical-study/

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #68 on:** March 29, 2018, 04:52:47 PM »

Adam,Jacob, Elisha, etc. could easily be evil characters also but for ccgs caricatures are fine.

egilkinc · « **Reply #69 on:** March 29, 2018, 05:25:10 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 04:19:58 PM

So I am continuing to delve into this topic and now I am not sure Ham should be a Hero either...LOL.

Check out this article and take it for what it's worth: http://beginningandend.com/bloodlines-of-the-nephilim-a-biblical-study/

My wife points out Pharaoh's Daughter and Bathsheba as either potentially mis-aligned or, at the very least, ambivalent. It has been argued that Bathsheba was seducing David and later manipulated his decision about succession. What about her life indicates she is a Hero? Not looking to debate - I don't necessarily hold this myself, just pointing out that there more examples :-)
She also tries to make a bit of an argument for Orpah, but that's a bit weaker as she returned to her gods in contrast with Ruth.

... now, King Jehu, on the other hand ...
Gil

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #70 on:** March 29, 2018, 05:35:46 PM »

I don't get Orpah as an evil character either. Seems like the two women were at different stages in their life.

Sadness · « **Reply #71 on:** March 29, 2018, 06:17:12 PM »

Orpah being an evil character as she had the choice on whether or not to stay with her mother-in-law or return to her gods.

There are some other characters that could swing either way...King Solomon comes to mind as later in his life, it appears he rejected God by marrying foreign wives (women that didn't worship God, but idols). One of King David's high priests did not support Solomon, but another of David's sons.

The dual alignment card for characters is tricky at best and a headache inducer at worst. This card being one of the headache inducers and like Rob said earlier, provides discussion, Biblical prayer and seeking God for answers, plus checking various points of view.

My question is: if the card stays a DA, can we use a black sharpie to mark out the 'good side' without it being considered illegal for tournament play.

Thanks to y'all and God bless you

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #72 on:** March 29, 2018, 09:01:55 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 28, 2018, 11:55:38 PM

I'm unfamiliar with the "historical context" and long standing perception that you speak of. I don't believe a cultural bias that isn't grounded in scripture carries nearly the same weight, but if one exists I'd like to be familiar with it so we can consider all viewpoints as we move forward. Do you care to elaborate?

Certainly!

The context that I am referring to may indeed be the "cultural bias" you were referring to. However, since perception is still part of reality, I think we should be aware of the ramifications. Some hosts still use Redemption as an evangelistic tool, and others (like me!) cater to younger crowds. Neither of these audiences is concerned with scriptural research.

I remember the first time I had heard of the Nephilim back in the 1980s, because I heard them referenced several times in a row. First was in a novel, next was in an RPG, and then finally in a movie. I remember finding it odd that I had never heard of them before, then suddenly they were everywhere. Google and similar search engines were not a thing back then, so "research" was limited. But I looked them up (in the library!) because I was intrigued. All the searching I did, through art, fiction, TV, and movies all yielded the same results. The only references to them that I found were evil.

Now, admittedly, I was not a Christian back then, so I may have brushed off any Biblical references. I'm not sure. But since we seem to have plenty of scholarly Christians here on the Boards that had the same perception, I think the non-evil references to them would have been scarce at best.

With that said, however, I don't care enough about it to debate it further. I was just surprised to see something that I had researched long ago as being evil suddenly being portrayed as a hero in Redemption. You definitely get points for the shock effect.

egilkinc · « **Reply #73 on:** March 30, 2018, 07:47:43 AM »

I agree with much of what's being said here especially about how this issue and Redemption in general has sparked good discussion. Having said that, I strongly agree with Watchman492's excellent early assessment and don't think Nephilim are Heroic any more than Nimrod. It seems like Dual Alignment should reflect a clear change in a person i.e. King Saul, Jehu/King Jehu, and others. Even if Dual Alignment conveys a "maybe we could consider this ___ either/or", Nephilim have clearly been viewed as evil regardless of the possibility there may have been righteous people among them.

VJ · « **Reply #74 on:** March 30, 2018, 09:19:58 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 29, 2018, 09:01:55 PM

The only references to them that I found were evil.

The same with me.

While I was in Bible college the professor gave us several possible translations concerning the verses of Genesis 6:1-4. This included fallen angels, the Sethite and fallen man translations. However, regardless of who the Nephilim who, verse 5 told that man's wickedness was great upon the earth and every inclination of his heart was only evil all the time.

Concerning the reference to "they were the heroes of old, men of renown" statement in verse 4, I thought of this the other night while watching the Travel Channel. Josh Gates' new show was on and in one of the segments he was discussing Vlad the Impaler, the supposed inspiration for Dracula. After Josh told his audience that Vlad was a very cruel ruler who murdered many of his enemies, he said that Vlad was considered a hero by some because he was able to unify the divided nation.

Concerning the faithless spies report in Numbers 13:33. The spies were very frighten by what they saw and they lost their faith in God's ability to save them. In their fear their bad report included exaggerations and distortions. They used a familiar term to describe the Anakites and this term was Nephilim. This was used to evoke fear and in their exaggerations they added the comparison: "we seemed like grasshoppers."

VJ

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Author Topic: Heroic Nephilim (Read 15812 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13