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Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on March 26, 2018, 10:45:25 AM

Title: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Minister Polarius on March 26, 2018, 10:45:25 AM
Moses can't be an evil prince of Egypt during the Hebrew apostasy but the most evil creatures in all of human history can start heroes? And on a flippant "sorry [not sorry] if they don't represent 'your' [snicker] interpretation?" following a Pontius' "there's no way of knowing"? The way these are being handled is far from neutral: neutral was when they were human and able to be converted, but universally evil to begin with.

I'm out.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 26, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
I agree.  I've also heard it said that Nimrod could be considered a "good guy" since the scripture about him says "He was a mighty hunter before the Lord."  But the word "before" is actually an affront to God, much like how the first commandment of "Have no other gods before me" obviously uses "before" in a negative way.  Nimrod is the main founder of occultic practices, if you dig deep enough into the history of him, Semiramus, and Babel as a whole.  And he was correctly made an evil character in the Cloud of Witnesses set.  The Nephilim have always been considered evil in all history that's known about them.  Just because they were "mighty men of renown" doesn't mean they were heroes in any way.  They were just really well known to be bad dudes and powerful (particularly when you're the offspring of fallen angels and humans).

I know this probably won't change anything about this Nephilim character.  But I wanted to say my peace about it.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Jeremystair on March 26, 2018, 11:19:29 AM
+1
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: goalieking87 on March 26, 2018, 11:45:01 AM
Genesis 6:1-5 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

There is some context above. I am not sure if another place where Nephilim are mentioned, but feel free to help out with those references if you know of any.

In terms of good or evil, I have to say that I had the same expectation that they would only be evil, so I went to the scriptures. From these verses, I do not believe that it can be determined whether the Nephilim are one and the same of the offspring of demons and humans. While it is a possibility, these verses seem to be all over the place in terms of content. It also says they were present in those days and afterward, which could create a distinction that they were already on the earth when that began to happen, rather than they are the offspring.

After that, it does refer to them as “Heroes of old” I am not educated enough to comment to the translation/interpretation taken here. Again, if you have more info, feel free to comment. Then the scriptures go on to say the human race had become very wicked, so EC is definitely justified as well.  I probably should have included more verses, but it states that the inclination of human hearts were evil all the time. While that would be true, Noah found favor with God (stated in the verses right afterwards) and evidently his sons and their wives must not have been all bad either.

All that to say it really doesn’t seem clear, and I respect the dual alignment stance, even if it would not have been my first inclination.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Red on March 26, 2018, 05:59:08 PM
I'm not ok with Heroic Nephilim from a theological viewpoint.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Schaefer on March 26, 2018, 06:56:24 PM
I personally don't think Nephilim should be a hero in redemption. Most because I don't believe that there is sufficient evidence to say that based on the passages that nephilim were good. You can argue that maybe they weren't all evil but unless there is better evidence for them being good and godly I don't think I'm comfortable with a cryptically possibly not good character saving souls inherently. In assuming they'll be treated as human still so converting would solve any cryptic issues in my mind. I would just err on the side of caution is all and respect a topic that holds some possibly disturbing implications if we act too quickly for the sake of a cool game.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: h20tor on March 26, 2018, 07:11:48 PM
Based on the context of Genesis and Numbers, I am VERY hesitant in having nephilim as a hero. There is more pointing towards their 'evil' traits than anything good.

Even if they were good, there are a lot of people who have voiced their opposition to making them heroes and since it isn't clear if they were good, I personally don't support the hero portion of the card.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: kariusvega on March 26, 2018, 07:31:21 PM
Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 26, 2018, 10:45:25 AM
Moses can't be an evil prince of Egypt during the Hebrew apostasy but the most evil creatures in all of human history can start heroes? And on a flippant "sorry [not sorry] if they don't represent 'your' [snicker] interpretation?" following a Pontius' "there's no way of knowing"? The way these are being handled is far from neutral: neutral was when they were human and able to be converted, but universally evil to begin with.

I'm out.

Definitely dig the heroic Nephilim!

Also wish we could have a DA evil gold Prince Moses!

Maybe at least an evil gold Prince of Egypt who can search for good Moses when discarded? Seems like a great opportunity to show Redemption in Redemption!
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 26, 2018, 08:09:51 PM
I agree with Polarius. We had the debates about "demons cannot be redeemed", and "Magicians are evil." I don't see why there is an exception here. Harry Potter fans would argue the "heroic magicians" side, but still lose. I don't see why "heroic Nephilim" should be  treated differently. There is no historic context that portrays these beings as anything but evil.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: VJ on March 26, 2018, 08:44:16 PM
Nephilim in Hebrew can mean "fallen ones" or "to fall".  There are several viewpoints on this.  Some believe it is fallen angels (supported in some NT scriptures) where others believe it refers to strong men who "fell" on others to overpower them. 

Another viewpoint is that the sons of God refer to the descendants of Seth, the son of Adam.  The linage of Jesus includes Seth (Luke 3).  "This view understands the sin of Genesis 6:1-4 as the descendants of the blessed line of Seth marrying indiscriminately, taking whatever wives they wished rather than the worshippers of God.  Thus mankind became spiritually and then morally corrupt"  (Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary).  They were considered heroes in the eyes of men, but to God they were sinners, the fallen ones, thus they fell under God's judgment.

Genesis 6:5 speaks of man's depravity at this time.

Regardless of who the Nephilim were Genesis 6:5 makes it clear that all men were evil and were worthy of God's judgment (Genesis 6:6-7).  (Note:  Verse 8 mentions one exception - Noah.)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 26, 2018, 09:40:24 PM
The Nephilim in Hebrew means "giants" but in a more ambiguous sense.  It can refer to physical stature, position, or tyrant.  Genesis 6:4 scripture reads:

"There were giants [or Nephilim] in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown." NKJV

Nephilim has been interpreted to mean "fallen," "fallen ones," or to "fall upon."  It is in a negative connotation.  When viewed within the context of that scripture, particularly verse 5 (below), it is clearly a negative connotation. 

"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The Nephilim were also mentioned in Numbers 13:33 when the spies observed the Anakim, which reads "There we saw the Nephilim (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”  The Israelite spies obviously knew of the Nephilim.  How did they know about THE Nephilim?  They most likely knew about the Nephilim from the days of Noah.  In every respect, these giants and other giants, throughout the scriptures, have all been associated with terror, death, and tyrannical behavior.  These are traits not associated with godly men. 

Some scholars have suggested that there also appears to be a reference to the Nephilim in the warriors sense in Ezekiel 32:27.  In the verses from 26 to 28, Ezekiel prophesies about how terror was spread by the "uncircumcised" (always a negative connotation within Biblical and Hebraic worldview), some of which were the "fallen warriors of old," which Ezekiel also said that these warriors also spread terror in the land of the living.  Within the entire context of these verses, it is all in a negative, evil way.

Fast forward to the book of Jude, who quotes extensively from the book of Enoch, which goes into a deep history about the Gen. 6 Nephilim (which clearly shows that they are fallen angels who impregnated earthly women, the offspring of which were these Nephilim who terrorized, killed, and ate people).

Revisiting Gen. 6:4, it states "those were the mighty men of old, men of renown."  It is widely believed and accepted by scholars that these "mighty men" (sometimes referred to as "heroes") were the descendants of the sons of God (which is widely accepted to mean fallen angels.  The sons of God were also referred to in Job 2 and are believed to be angels) who impregnated earthly women and bore the Nephilim.  Does this story sound familiar?  How about the titans in Greek mythology?  The gods impregnated earthly women who bore the titans, which were demigods and who terrorized mankind and were extremely violent.  To the Greeks, it could be said that these titans were "well known, powerful beings" and were "mighty warriors."  This is not to say, however, that such terminology is used in a positive way concerning them.  It is more of a fearful way of viewing them as powerful warriors.  This is the same connotation regarding the Nephilim, which the titan myth obviously derived from a true story in ancient history, which were the Nephilim (the Sumerians also had a similar story in their history).  Just because some translations use the word "heroes" instead of "mighty men" doesn't mean, in our 21st century minds, that these were "the good guys who saved the day" and were celebrated and loved by antediluvians.  In contrast, the people most likely feared them to the utmost.  These beings had such power and fear among people that a name was made among them, which was obviously known in the ancient world as those powerful warriors. 

Within every historical context the Nephilim have been viewed as negative and/or evil, NOT as good guys.  It is very important to not view the Nephilim as "heroes" in the sense that we, as contemporary, westernized people view that word.  Think of it this way:  Note several historical military figures in history:  Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Genghis Khan, Cortez...they all were blood-thirsty men who brought terror everywhere they went.  However, they are also viewed by ancient and contemporary people as legends and respected as powerful and cunning warriors.  Same with the Nephilim.  They were terrible and violent beings, but were feared and maybe even respected by some due to their power. 

Kept within the context of true biblical heroes, and within the Redemption definition of what constitutes a biblical hero, the Nephilim clearly do not meet such a standard. 
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: jesse on March 26, 2018, 09:55:11 PM
My  :2cents:

First off, I don't think it's right to question Gabe/the elder team's sincerity as the original post did. This is indeed a difficult theological question - even Answers in Genesis has no official position on the identity of the Nephilim! And I trust that Gabe and the elders are trying to be as Biblically faithful as possible.

The reason this is such a tough issue is there are only two verses in the entire Bible in which the Nephilim are mentioned: Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33. (I don't take the Book of Enoch as being a source with the same level of credibility at all as The Bible since it's not in the Bible.) Both contexts would lead me to believe that these people would be classified as ECs in Redemption, as I'll explain:

1) Genesis 6:1-7 is the set-up for The Flood- the background info for why God deemed it necessary. So the Nephilim would be grouped with the rest of the antidiluveans (other than the Ark 8 ) during that time as ECs, as they rejected God (as evidenced) by not boarding the Ark. Interestingly, the Nephilim survived the Flood, so there must have been Nephilim genes among the 8 on The Ark (which the Sethite view that VJ described supports). I definitely don't believe the "demon offspring" view, that demons or angels can have children with human women. Angels and humans are completely different kinds of creatures and God very clearly established a reproductive barrier in Gen. 1 ("according to their kind") - and that was just speaking about His physical creation! How much more must that apply between spirtual beings vs. physcial.

2) In Numbers 13:33, the Nephilim are mentioned by the 12 spies in their report after scoping out the Promised Land of Canaan as being among the people who made themselves seem "as grasshoppers". They were among the people that God had determined they should destroy (the only possible reason being that they were wicked). For Redemption, I would assume we would have the Nephilim in general be just like the Canaanites, Amalekites, etc: Evil Characters (with individual exceptions certainly possible, according to Scripture if there were any, like Rahab among the Canaanites).

So it would seem most logical from the Bible to classify the Nephilim as ECs. However, the info on them is definitely sparse and I would be interested to hear why the elders decided them to be dual alignment.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 26, 2018, 10:15:51 PM
Quote from: jesse on March 26, 2018, 09:55:11 PM
First off, I don't think it's right to question Gabe/the elder team's sincerity as the original post did.

I think Polarius was questioning the presentation of the decision more than its sincerity. I would agree that the article's comment was flippant, and could even be interpreted as dismissive. The ensuing posts seem to indicate that the "your interpretation" side is more prevalent than anticipated.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Red on March 27, 2018, 04:17:41 AM
"The Sons of God" in the Hebrew Bible.

The rationale for a non-heroic Nephilim is the common interpretation that the Nephilim are the off-spring of fallen angelic beings and humans. This is based off language seen in Genesis 6:2 where the Bible says the "sons of God" or in transliterated Hebrew "ben elohiym" which literally translates to the sons of God. The interpretation of this phrase is what the argument hinges on.

Interpretation of this topic is split among Christians and scholars. A large number of classic Christian interpreters would say that the nephilim are the offspring of an intermarriage of the godly line of seth and the evil line of Cain. Matthew Henry is a commentator who would take this interpretation. This view has serious problems.

To see these problems, let us return to "ben elohiym." This phrase occurs two times in the plural in the OT. (You see this Hebrew phrase in Daniel a time or two in reference to theophanies.) This appearance and in the first two chapters of Job. The Job appearance is how we must reach a conclusion based on this word.

In the book of Job, "ben elohiym" is used in reference to what could be a divine council of Angels. "The Sons of God" are those who present themselves before God and Satan is among them. This usage would surely imply that the Sons of God are among the divine order. Given that this usage (one of two major usages in the Bible) shows the sons of God as being among the divine order, we must be hermeneutically consistent and apply it to the Genesis passage as well. This makes the nephilim the offspring of humans and fallen angels.

Based on that conclusion, I would have to say good or neutral nephilim have no leg to stand on. I'm not going to quit the game or anything remotely close over this, but with all my training and research, I can't be ok with heroic nephilim.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Xonathan on March 27, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
Quote from: Red on March 27, 2018, 04:17:41 AM
"The Sons of God" in the Hebrew Bible.

The rationale for a non-heroic Nephilim is the common interpretation that the Nephilim are the off-spring of fallen angelic beings and humans. This is based off language seen in Genesis 6:2 where the Bible says the "sons of God" or in transliterated Hebrew "ben elohiym" which literally translates to the sons of God. The interpretation of this phrase is what the argument hinges on.

Interpretation of this topic is split among Christians and scholars. A large number of classic Christian interpreters would say that the nephilim are the offspring of an intermarriage of the godly line of seth and the evil line of Cain. Matthew Henry is a commentator who would take this interpretation. This view has serious problems.

To see these problems, let us return to "ben elohiym." This phrase occurs two times in the plural in the OT. (You see this Hebrew phrase in Daniel a time or two in reference to theophanies.) This appearance and in the first two chapters of Job. The Job appearance is how we must reach a conclusion based on this word.

In the book of Job, "ben elohiym" is used in reference to what could be a divine council of Angels. "The Sons of God" are those who present themselves before God and Satan is among them. This usage would surely imply that the Sons of God are among the divine order. Given that this usage (one of two major usages in the Bible) shows the sons of God as being among the divine order, we must be hermeneutically consistent and apply it to the Genesis passage as well. This makes the nephilim the offspring of humans and fallen angels.

Based on that conclusion, I would have to say good or neutral nephilim have no leg to stand on. I'm not going to quit the game or anything remotely close over this, but with all my training and research, I can't be ok with heroic nephilim.


Just to understand your points better, does the Job 2 references of the “sons of God” have to mean an angelic counsel? Could I not understand this just to mean humans presenting themselves before God? The Bible refers to us (humans) as sons of God more than it does angels right?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 27, 2018, 10:43:08 AM
In regards to sons of God. This is from the Jewish website Chabad.org. Although it’s not a Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah website/sect, it does offer perspective on Hebraic translation related to sons of God.

One thing benei elokim does not mean is “sons of G‑d.” In fact, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai would “curse” anyone who translated the term benei elokim as the “sons of G‑d.”1 The word elokim in Scripture, while generally referring to G‑d, is in essence merely an expression of authority.2 Similarly, the term benei does not necessarily mean “sons,” but is often just a title. Benei chorin, for example, means those who are free—not “sons of freedom.”
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:45:24 AM
Just to make sure I'm clear on what people are saying--the controversial issue for those who are opposed to the card in its current form is not whether they are human or human/demon, but rather whether they should have a "good side" or not, is that accurate?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: h20tor on March 27, 2018, 10:47:51 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:45:24 AM
Just to make sure I'm clear on what people are saying--the controversial issue for those who are opposed to the card in its current form is not whether they are human or human/demon, but rather whether they should have a "good side" or not, is that accurate?

As far as I am concerned it's the 'Hero' portion of the card. I am on the side of making it just an EC.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 27, 2018, 10:51:51 AM
oh please... blue and red aren't good brigades  ::)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:58:15 AM
Quote from: TheHobbit on March 27, 2018, 10:51:51 AM
oh please... blue and red aren't good brigades  ::)

Calling it now--a Blue deck will finish Top 3 at Nationals this year.  8)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: jesse on March 27, 2018, 11:35:58 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:45:24 AM
Just to make sure I'm clear on what people are saying--the controversial issue for those who are opposed to the card in its current form is not whether they are human or human/demon, but rather whether they should have a "good side" or not, is that accurate?

At least for me, yes
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 27, 2018, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:45:24 AM
Just to make sure I'm clear on what people are saying--the controversial issue for those who are opposed to the card in its current form is not whether they are human or human/demon, but rather whether they should have a "good side" or not, is that accurate?

Definitely not the good side.

I think it would be really cool for it to be human/demon as this would be the first in Redemption, and the history of the Nephilim appears that they are “demigods.” At the very least it needs to be WC class and have the giant identifier.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Kevinthedude on March 27, 2018, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:58:15 AM
Quote from: TheHobbit on March 27, 2018, 10:51:51 AM
oh please... blue and red aren't good brigades  ::)

Calling it now--a Blue deck will finish Top 3 at Nationals this year.  8)

Without even knowing the rest of the cards I agree. Blue has already has a lot of potential in the current pool. If blue gets even a small boost of current power level support I think it will be competitive.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 12:48:23 PM
Quote from: Watchman492 on March 27, 2018, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 10:45:24 AM
Just to make sure I'm clear on what people are saying--the controversial issue for those who are opposed to the card in its current form is not whether they are human or human/demon, but rather whether they should have a "good side" or not, is that accurate?

I think it would be really cool for it to be human/demon as this would be the first in Redemption, and the history of the Nephilim appears that they are “demigods.” At the very least it needs to be WC class and have the giant identifier.

I can fairly confidently say the human/demon thing will not happen. The closest we will likely get is characters like Damsel w/ SoD who were known to be possessed, but were still fully human.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: jesse on March 27, 2018, 12:49:37 PM
Please excuse the bold - it is not "yelling" - I'm just trying to separate my commentary from the Scripture so it's easier to read  :)

Humans and angels/demons are different - they cannot interbreed.

"But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another." - 1 Corinthians 15:38-40

God would never allow a half-demon/half-human to exist, because it would be impossible for them to either serve God as an angel or be saved as a human (because Jesus died for humanity - Adam, Eve, and their offspring).

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." - 1 Corinthians 15:41-50

In Heaven, the angels do not marry nor are given in marriage.

"And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”
Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." - Mark 12:18-25

Procreation is to be within the context of marriage, and one of the primary purposes of marriage is procreation, so it is logical to assume that the angels cannot procreate.

"And this second thing you do. You cover the Lord's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth." - Malachi 2:13-15
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Sadness on March 27, 2018, 12:50:08 PM
I apologize first if this offends anyone.

When I first heard about the Nephilim, I started looking into various sites for clarification on the subject matter.  Jewish sites, Biblical archaeology sites and others, there was always different viewpoints concerning the subject matter.


On one hand, the verses in Genesis falls into what some people call a 'gray' area...meaning the subject doesn't have a clear cut answer. Not like the verse: In the beginning,God...that's clear.  On the other hand, the descendants of the Nephilim always seemed to be against God's chosen people, the Israelites.  I mean, can anyone find a verse where there was a giant fighting alongside the israelites?

I vote that the Nephilim become an evil character and chose someone else to be the dual alignment character..King Solomon maybe?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 27, 2018, 12:56:29 PM
I love the idea of a dual-alignment King Solomon.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Kevinthedude on March 27, 2018, 01:19:40 PM
Just picking another random character to be dual alignment won’t replace this character unless they have the same brigades. A couple cards exist in the current pool and have been spoiled for this set that support black defense/red offense synergy and nephilim being a DAC that is specifically red and black is important.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: goalieking87 on March 27, 2018, 01:52:25 PM
Just in case anyone is keeping a vote count, I would also vote that Nephilim be changed to solely an EC.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Red Wing on March 27, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
Nephilim as a hero makes the game cooler so I'm all for it. Redemption should be a CCG first and a 'bible' game second.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Guardian on March 27, 2018, 02:17:34 PM
For the record, there is no vote on this issue, (we used voting for the Community Created Card  ;) ), but I can say that at least for me personally, I am reading all feedback that has been shared and following up with my own examination of the Scripture passages that have been brought up.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 27, 2018, 02:22:25 PM
Quote from: Red Wing on March 27, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
Nephilim as a hero makes the game cooler so I'm all for it. Redemption should be a CCG first and a 'bible' game second.
Yay, another member* for the Save Que Foundation!

*Or maybe Red Wing was already a member of SQF. I forget.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Red Wing on March 27, 2018, 02:30:35 PM
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 27, 2018, 02:22:25 PM
Quote from: Red Wing on March 27, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
Nephilim as a hero makes the game cooler so I'm all for it. Redemption should be a CCG first and a 'bible' game second.
Yay, another member* for the Save Que Foundation!

*Or maybe Red Wing was already a member of SQF. I forget.
Spoiler (hover to show)

Please accept my humble application. Do I get a tat?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YeshuaIsLord on March 27, 2018, 08:14:48 PM
I think the Gen 6 giants were as bad as it gets and pretty much the reason for the flood in the first place. Making them heroes in Redemption is just macabre!

Quote from: jesse on March 26, 2018, 09:55:11 PM
I definitely don't believe the "demon offspring" view, that demons or angels can have children with human women. Angels and humans are completely different kinds of creatures and God very clearly established a reproductive barrier in Gen. 1 ("according to their kind")

Quote from: Xonathan on March 27, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
Just to understand your (Red's (http://www.cactusforums.com/off-topic/heroic-nephilim/msg580617/#msg580617)) points better, does the Job 2 references of the “sons of God” have to mean an angelic counsel? Could I not understand this just to mean humans presenting themselves before God? The Bible refers to us (humans) as sons of God more than it does angels right?
As for the identity of the sons of God (https://youtu.be/wmOEiKoHYdU) (Insight from the academic community. Heiser has good content on this and other topics)
I would argue that the idea of believers being "sons of God" is foreign to the OT. The NT usage of that phrase must be interpreted in light of it's usage in the OT. I would argue that this phrase refers to the "inner circle" of God. The one's ruling with and on behalf of God. In that sense we become sons of God and displace the rebellious and unholy one's that have become the powers and principalities the evil powers of darkness in the spiritual realm that are referenced in Ephesians 6. See also Psalm 82 (https://www.bibleserver.com/text/ESV/Psalm82). These "gods" which are called "sons of the Most High" are sentenced to "die like men" which implies they aren't mere mortals like we are (humans).

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (https://www.bibleserver.com/text/ESV/Matthew22)
The angels in heaven do not marry and produce offspring. The one's that left heaven ("their first estate" as Jude puts it) did. That's why Jesus adds "in heaven". He isn't denying the fact that the evil angels did procreate but actually hints at this.

Quote from: Watchman492 on March 26, 2018, 05:50:15 PM
At the very least perhaps a vote from the community on whether it should only be an EC or a DAC is warranted.  I feel that leaving Nephilim as a DAC is a mistake that will be regretted later and is already leaving a bad taste in some people's mouths.  If one looks at the Hebrew definition of Nephilim it's one of negative connotation, not anything good.

At any rate, please let this be discussed in the Redemption community instead of just making the decision without valid input from us.
+1

Positive feedback:
I like the art on "Nephilim" and the decision that you'll give the giants some more publicity which I think is great because the "Gen 6 incident" has ramifications for the entirety of scripture. I believe we will be able to make sense out of a lot of "strange" passages once we find out about the giants and the related matters. I think this will cause people to investigate the scriptures more closely and find things they didn't expect. Great job!
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 27, 2018, 11:42:07 PM
Quote from: jesse on March 26, 2018, 09:55:11 PM
The reason this is such a tough issue is there are only two verses in the entire Bible in which the Nephilim are mentioned: Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33. (I don't take the Book of Enoch as being a source with the same level of credibility at all as The Bible since it's not in the Bible.)

Just because a book wasn’t canonized by the Catholic Church or Martin Luther doesn’t mean it’s not credible. If you believe Jude, which is in the Bible, then you indirectly believe the book of Enoch (at least in part) because Jude quoted from it at least two times in his tiny epistle. If you read Enoch you’ll see how it reads so much like the New Testament. This is due, in part, and is widely believed by scholars, that this book helped shape thinking in NT times. It was also among the Dead Sea Scrolls. It’s logical to think that if the Essenes (the writers of the DSS) were as devote as they were they wouldn’t have kept that book among the Tanak (Torah, Prophets, and Writings...aka the Old Testament) if they felt it was blasphemous.

Something to keep in mind in your research. :)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: jesse on March 28, 2018, 12:45:30 AM
Thanks for the info.  :) I think it's very important to stick to the 66 canonized Books of the Bible only as being inerrant because:

- God is sovereign over His Word
- its purposes are extremely important to Him and for us
- it is ultimately written by the Holy Spirit and therefore is perfect
- it will last forever, even into the eternal and perfect age

Therefore I believe that there's a world of difference in credibility, authority, and reliability of accuracy between the 66 canonized Books and any other human work. Not that another work can't have value, historical or otherwise, but everything else is a whole 'nother level way down from The Word of God.

As for the Book of Enoch specifically, I've never read it and personally don't want to get mixed up in my theology or even just in remembering what is from the actual Bible and what is a gnostic work. Again, it may have historical value as you mentioned, but its teaching about demons impregnating human women contradicts the Bible on many points and some very important principles (especially regarding creation and salvation), as I've tried to explain some in my previous posts.

Also, remembering that Joel didn't ultimately write the Book of Joel but the eternal, almighty Holy Spirit did through him, then the Book of Joel cannot be quoting from the book ot Enoch - it must be the other way around (again, ultimately). All Scipture comes from God (2 Timothy 3:16)- God is not copying from people for content outside of His knowledge for His eternal Word...and God did not ultimately author the book of Enoch, or else it would not contradict the 66 (and be among them).

I have learned that this is a common thing about gnostic gospels, "extra" books of the Bible, etc - they contradict the canonized 66 Books in various ways. From a human point of view, we could say perhaps this is why they were left out of the canonized 66, but once again, knowing that the Holy Spirit is ultimately the author of the entire Bible, ultimately it was God Who made the decision - no doubt for many perfect reasons. These works can perhaps have some historical value, but they should not be trusted at all on the same level as The Bible.

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.- 2 Peter 1:16-21
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 28, 2018, 09:16:44 AM
I want to clarify something that I realize I didn't in my last post.  I am a firm believer in the inspired word of God and that the Bible we have is most certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit.  I am not saying that the book of Enoch is inspired scripture.  I was making the point that just because it wasn't canonized doesn't mean it doesn't have any credibility to it.  It is a fact that it did influence thought in some form or fashion in NT times by some of the NT believers we know from scripture.  These other non-canonical books can be considered to contain some historical fact, and valued as such (not dismissed), but that doesn't necessarily mean they were inspired by God.

In regards to the book of Joel (I believe you meant the book of Jude), I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "it must be the other way around," but this is my point:  that if Jude was speaking through inspiration he was inspired, through the Holy Spirit, to quote the book of Enoch.  It was quoted for a reason.  The same with his quote from the Assumption of Moses when he was talking about Michael not rebuking Satan.  In an article I located, which appears to support both of our positions (see below), these quotes are also in line with the Torah and Prophets, anyways.  And since Jude was a Jewish man, he would have known these scriptures from the Tanak.

For the record, the book of Enoch was not a gnostic gospel; it existed well before these arrived on the scene.  The gnostic gospels are a completely different animal in that they clearly contradict the gospel/gospel story in so many ways.

In regards to the angels having relations with human women, I understand that this is a tough subject that not many will believe.  But if angels can take on clear human form and eat earthly food (Gen. 18:8 ), and men wanting to have sexual relations with them (Gen. 19:5), and demonic spirits are known to have sexual relations with humans even to this day (Incubus and Succubus spirits), then it is possible (but not proven, unless the Genesis 6 incident was, in fact, fallen angels that did somehow impregnate women who eventually bore their children), that they could create some warped half-breed creature.  This, I'm sure, will remain debatable for a long while as it has over the past millennium. 

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/jude/jude-9-14-15-why-does-jude-quote-the-assumption-of-moses-v-9-and-the-book-of-enoch-v-14-15/ (http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/jude/jude-9-14-15-why-does-jude-quote-the-assumption-of-moses-v-9-and-the-book-of-enoch-v-14-15/)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: CactusRob on March 28, 2018, 09:45:51 AM
The following is from The Book of Tobit that is accepted as part of the Old Testament Canon by the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Anglican Church.  It tells the story of the Angel Raphael helping a family in need.  I have highlighted a few parts with comments:

6Then Raphael called the two of them privately and said to them, "Bless God and acknowledge him in the presence of all the living for the good things he has done for you. Bless and sing praise to his name. With fitting honor declare to all people the deeds of God. Do not be slow to acknowledge him. 7It is good to conceal the secret of a king, but to acknowledge and reveal the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do good and evil will not overtake you. 8Prayer with fasting is good, but better than both is almsgiving with righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than wealth with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to lay up gold. 9For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life, 10but those who commit sin and do wrong are their own worst enemies. 11"I will now declare the whole truth to you and will conceal nothing from you. Already I have declared it to you when I said, 'It is good to conceal the secret of a king, but to reveal with due honor the works of God.' 12So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead. 13And that time when you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner to go and bury the dead, 14I was sent to you to test you. And at the same time God sent me to heal you and Sarah your daughter-in-law. 15I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord."
Verse 9 was problematic for Luther and may have contributed to his decision to exclude this book from the Protestant canon.  I personally accept this book as part of the canon because the Catholic Church tells me it is.  But, I think it also curious that a main point of this story is discussed by Jesus and the Sadduccess in Matthew 22:23-30 (woman with Seven husbands).

16The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid. 17But he said to them, "Do not be afraid; peace be with you. Bless God forevermore. 18As for me, when I was with you, I was not acting on my own will, but by the will of God. Bless him each and every day; sing his praises. 19Although you were watching me, I really did not eat or drink anything--but what you saw was a vision. 20So now get up from the ground,g and acknowledge God. See, I am ascending to him who sent me. Write down all these things that have happened to you." And he ascended. 21Then they stood up, and could see him no more. 22They kept blessing God and singing his praises, and they acknowledged God for these marvelous deeds of his, when an angel of God had appeared to them.
This furthers the argument that Jesse and others here have made that Angels are spiritual beings; not eating or drinking or procreating.  As far as I know the Catholic Church has no official position on "son's of god" having relations with "daughters of men."  The popular view among most theologians these days is sons of Seth marrying daughters of Cain.  How this produced Giants is hard to explain.  But all this to say, I don't think that a union between as son of Seth and a daughter of Cain is going to produce a man that is by definition more evil that any one of us who bears the stain of original sin.  Therefore, it is not too far a reach that the card in question can be of dual alignment.

Great discussion here and that was always one of my hopes for this game.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: jesse on March 28, 2018, 10:58:19 AM
@Watchman thanks for the thoughtful response, and yes, I meant the Book of Jude, not Joel, sorry  :doh:

I did a Bible study on angels recently, and in response to your point about "men wanting to have sexual relations with them (Gen. 19:5)", I believe that this is because in that particular event the angels appeared human (as surely Abraham believed they were when the three "men" first visited him in Genesis 18). The wicked men of Sodom and Gomorrah clearly had no idea that these were really angels who could have killed them all in seconds.

Overall, from my study I learned that it is most likely from Scripture that angels have the ability to change their form/appearance. Some reasons why I believe this are:

1) Sometimes in Scripture, angels are mistaken for people by people (Genesis 18, Hebrews 13:2)
2) Sometimes in Scripture, when a person sees an angel they know that they are an angels, and are terrified by their holiness and might (Luke 2:9)
3) Sometimes in Scripture, angels are around but people can't see them (2 Kings 6:15-17) - obviously this is the everyday reality for everyone the vast majority of the time
4) 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says that Satan is able to transform/masquerade himself as an angel of light, and depending on if "his ministers" refers to demons in v. 15, it also states that demons are able to do this as well:

"But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." - 2 Cor. 11:13-15

As for angels eating food, we know that angels can interact physically with the material world, and yet can (obviously) go between heaven and earth, battle demons in the spirit realm, appear and speak in dreams and visions, and be near God's throne. They have supernatural bodies, clearly. The fact that they can eat food though doesn't mean they have sexual organs (for the reasons I described in one of my previous posts in this thread)...perhaps it is similar to how in Heaven we will eat, but there are no verses suggesting that there will be sex in Heaven (and I believe most would assume that there isn't due to Jesus' statement in Mark 12:25).

A funny side-note: one of our pastors has a conundrum he likes to ask for fun sometimes: "After the resurrected Jesus ate the fish with His disciples and then traveled through the wall to visit them, did the fish go with Jesus through the wall?"  :laugh: that's definitely a head-scratcher to me  :laugh:
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: jesse on March 28, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
Quote from: CactusRob
Great discussion here and that was always one of my hopes for this game.

Thank you, Rob! This game has been such a blessing to so many people!!
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on March 28, 2018, 11:57:32 AM
Something I don't believe I've seen mentioned here is that shouldn't, for a character to be a hero, they be more than just not evil?  From what I've read there seems to be either no clear view of the Nephilim or a negative connotation connected to them.  Shouldn't a character have to have done something good to be considered a hero?  I love the card Nephilim, I love how the brigades and themes all work together, but I don't want him to be a hero just because he's a cool card and we can't prove he was good or evil when he clearly has a negative connotation throughout history and scripture. 
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Xonathan on March 28, 2018, 12:00:39 PM
Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on March 28, 2018, 11:57:32 AM
Something I don't believe I've seen mentioned here is that shouldn't, for a character to be a hero, they be more than just not evil?  From what I've read there seems to be either no clear view of the Nephilim or a negative connotation connected to them.  Shouldn't a character have to have done something good to be considered a hero?  I love the card Nephilim, I love how the brigades and themes all work together, but I don't want him to be a hero just because he's a cool card and we can't prove he was good or evil when he clearly has a negative connotation throughout history and scripture.

It all goes back to the Bible verse (Genesis 6:4) calling them mighty warriors and men of renown. Other translations even use the word hero or heroes.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Guardian on March 28, 2018, 12:36:23 PM
I want to echoes Rob's sentiment that this has been a really good discussion, and I appreciate that he took the time to read through the great points brought up. Even though the discussion was started out of frustration by Polarius, I have learned through discussion with him and reading others posts that it is a topic that some people feel very strongly about. Personally, I had never given it much thought or done much research, which is why I originally was fine with the DA option. This discussion led me to dig into it further (which I know other people have said as well), and I came to realizations that I had never considered before (such as the fact that the "giant" gene was somehow passed through the Flood Survivors).

In the end, it was not important to me personally whether we had a DAC Nephilim, an evil only Nephilim or no Nephilim at all--I just wanted this community to avoid having something that would create a rift or negative feelings towards each other. There are many passionate people with varying viewpoints on many different topics represented here, and that is an awesome thing. As I mentioned before, when we as the playtest/Elder team are working on a set, we cannot turn every aspect of every card into a vote like the community card. Hopefully we can move forward and continue having good discussions like this with future cards as Rob expressed.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YeshuaIsLord on March 28, 2018, 09:00:52 PM
If you by no means want to drop the DA aspect couldn't you keep the concept of the card but change the character from Nephilim to something else? Maybe that would work. I mean if you want to have a card like this have it but why does it have to be a/the Nephilim? I think it's evident that it's the great majority that either objects to keeping the card a DA or at least is hesitant to do so. I think no unholy character should be able to rescue lost souls. I believe printing a Nephilim as DA would stir unnecessary trouble so I suggest avoiding the issue by keeping the concept but changing it to another character. Why not change it to an angel? One of the sons of God? A watcher angel (like in Daniel 4:17) or something similar? I think it's evident in scripture that those can be either good or bad so they would fit the concept of the card.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 28, 2018, 10:22:03 PM
I mean thematically and historically, O.T Israelite's and other notable characters that were recorded following God explicitly in the Bible are the heroes in Redemption. I could see a gripe about that or even frustration because of feeling like its inaccurate. But I don't understand a theological one at all. If you think about it there are heroes all over, in every tribe, following God too. So if you think you had to be a God fearing Jew then or a professing Christian now to save souls, its time to mature.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 10:24:32 PM
Quote from: YeshuaIsLord on March 28, 2018, 09:00:52 PM
If you by no means want to drop the DA aspect couldn't you keep the concept of the card but change the character from Nephilim to something else? Maybe that would work. I mean if you want to have a card like this have it but why does it have to be a/the Nephilim? I think it's evident that it's the great majority that either objects to keeping the card a DA or at least is hesitant to do so. I think no unholy character should be able to rescue lost souls. I believe printing a Nephilim as DA would stir unnecessary trouble so I suggest avoiding the issue by keeping the concept but changing it to another character. Why not change it to an angel? One of the sons of God? A watcher angel (like in Daniel 4:17) or something similar? I think it's evident in scripture that those can be either good or bad so they would fit the concept of the card.

The issue is that to fit the current card's position in the set it needs to be Black, Pale Green, Red, Blue, a Giant, a Warrior, and an Antediluvian. Each one of things is very important to this card.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 28, 2018, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on March 28, 2018, 10:22:03 PM
If you think about it there are heroes all over, in every tribe, following God too. So if you think you had to be a God fearing Jew then or a professing Christian now to save souls, its time to mature.

Huh?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 28, 2018, 10:55:33 PM
I really don't think that the primary issue has been resolved by Rob's post. The problem with Nephilim is the historical context. There are certain beings that have been traditionally viewed as evil (i.e. witches, vampires, zombies). To make a traditionally evil character a hero just for gameplay purposes is silly. Interestingly, it does follow the world's pattern of making evil become good, just like Hollywood has hero witches, hero vampires, and hero zombies. I just feel that we should not follow the world's lead in this case.

The fact that the Nephilim could have been nice guys is irrelevant. They simply were not. That's why we don't have a DA Taskmaster. They simply weren't nice guys.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Schaefer on March 28, 2018, 11:14:14 PM
The big concern I have over this is what it basically implies when this is treated as a DA character v.s. what is implied as an EC. As an EC the only implications are those all men were wicked including the nephilim. This is scripturally supported because it literally talks about the nephilim and the literal next verse talks about how all men were wicked. Now if this card is treated as a DA character basically we are implying that there is scriptural evidence that the nephilim were good. Not just that they Weren't necessarily evil but some were good. Biblically based on genesis this is not supported in my mind based on the verse that follows the verse concerning nephilim (I think its genesis 6: 1-5 that contains the passage I'm referencing but I'm not 100% sure) if we are to consider the nephilim to be men. The whole arguement of the nephilim being from the line of seth doesn't seem to fit well with me because that would still be men and all men were wicked according to the referenced passage. Only Noah and his family found grace with God according to genesis. So if the nephilim are men I feel they fall under the mens hearts were only evil continually portion. If they are not men then what are they? That's were the cryptic part of the nephilim comes into play which I will choose to not debate but rather present that there are at least 2 side and those are that the nephilim are evil beings products of unintended procreation or they are something outside this/not inherently evil because of their unintended existence if it was unintended. The jist of what I'll get at is more so that I am uncomfortable with the possiblity that the nephilim are in fact evil and ungodly and we ignore this because its cryptic and arguable and make the nephilim heros in redemption that represent godly beings that can save souls to start.

Theologically speaking there isn't much difference in an arguement for a da nephilim than there is for a da Lucifer except that we know a little more about the fall of  Lucifer. Lucifer was a godly angel at one time though so if Lucifer was ever printed would he be DA? I know that is an extreme example but I am trying to demonstrate that even the possibility that the nephilim were strictly evil can't be dismissed because its cryptic. It's not like Judas who was a disciple of christ who betrayed him. There is evidence for a good side and evil side there so it is at least understandable. But to make the nephilim good based on what little we know about them using interpretations that are very debatable is not something I think redemption should delve into. If nephilim is to be printed I feel It should only be evil based on what concrete evidence we have biblically and that being mens hearts were continually filled with evil. If we are uncomfortable with printing the nephilim as only evil I would suggest not printing them as it is theologically not a safe topic just as much as a holy mother virgin Mary card would be or a DA Lucifer.

Redemption should try to maintain unity within christ as much as possible and I don't think any one side should have to have its theological views pushed to the side for the sake of a card.

Just my  :2cents:
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 28, 2018, 10:55:33 PM
I really don't think that the primary issue has been resolved by Rob's post. The problem with Nephilim is the historical context. There are certain beings that have been traditionally viewed as evil (i.e. witches, vampires, zombies). To make a traditionally evil character a hero just for gameplay purposes is silly. Interestingly, it does follow the world's pattern of making evil become good, just like Hollywood has hero witches, hero vampires, and hero zombies. I just feel that we should not follow the world's lead in this case.

The fact that the Nephilim could have been nice guys is irrelevant. They simply were not. That's why we don't have a DA Taskmaster. They simply weren't nice guys.

I will preface getting involved in this discussion by saying I am not a Biblical scholar and I haven't researched original Hebrew versions of the text to find potential meanings lost in translation and all that, however I just don't see enough from the passage in question that allows you to lump these guys in with witches, vampires, etc. Regardless of how the Nephilim came to be, the only descriptions of their actual actions is "They were the heroes of old, men of renown". I see nothing in that sentence that disqualifies them from being Heroes in Redemption.

Maybe there were all terrible people, maybe they were half demon monsters, maybe they were relatively normal humans (aside from being huge). We simply do not know what they were. They could have been anything, and I believe a Dual Alignment card accurately reflects that.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 28, 2018, 11:40:27 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 11:14:42 PM
... however I just don't see enough from the passage in question that allows you to lump these guys in with witches, vampires, etc.

I wasn't talking about that "passage." I was talking about "historical context." I don't know the origin of the term "witch," but it has traditionally been used as an evil term. Whether or not the Nephilim actually were born from fallen angels is irrelevant to the common depiction of them as being so. You can't change a long-standing perception with a Redemption card.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Gabe on March 28, 2018, 11:55:38 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 28, 2018, 11:40:27 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 11:14:42 PM
... however I just don't see enough from the passage in question that allows you to lump these guys in with witches, vampires, etc.

I wasn't talking about that "passage." I was talking about "historical context." I don't know the origin of the term "witch," but it has traditionally been used as an evil term. Whether or not the Nephilim actually were born from fallen angels is irrelevant to the common depiction of them as being so. You can't change a long-standing perception with a Redemption card.

I'm unfamiliar with the "historical context" and long standing perception that you speak of. I don't believe a cultural bias that isn't grounded in scripture carries nearly the same weight, but if one exists I'd like to be familiar with it so we can consider all viewpoints as we move forward. Do you care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YeshuaIsLord on March 29, 2018, 06:37:07 AM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 10:24:32 PM
The issue is that to fit the current card's position in the set it needs to be Black, Pale Green, Red, Blue, a Giant, a Warrior, and an Antediluvian. Each one of things is very important to this card.
Is theological accuracy important? At all?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Sadness on March 29, 2018, 07:03:08 AM
Ran across two websites for y'all to check out. Wiki and answersingenesis.org both have different viewpoints and researchers debating the verses in question.

Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 29, 2018, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: YeshuaIsLord on March 29, 2018, 06:37:07 AM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 28, 2018, 10:24:32 PM
The issue is that to fit the current card's position in the set it needs to be Black, Pale Green, Red, Blue, a Giant, a Warrior, and an Antediluvian. Each one of things is very important to this card.
Is theological accuracy important? At all?
You are asking this for a game in which there are Lost Souls which the card titled Son of God cannot rescue?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 29, 2018, 08:59:33 AM
Quote from: Four_Corners5 on March 29, 2018, 08:52:30 AM
At least the New Son of God can rescue all the Lost Souls in the game except for the Three Liner.

New or old SoG can rescue the two or three liner.  I believe what you meant was the new SoG can’t negate the liners.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 29, 2018, 09:35:00 AM
Quote from: Four_Corners5 on March 29, 2018, 08:52:30 AM
At least the New Son of God can rescue all the Lost Souls in the game except for the Three Liner.
Even the New Son of God cannot rescue half of the souls in any game.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: NathanW on March 29, 2018, 11:46:34 AM
It's really not the Hero that rescues the lost soul from a theological viewpoint rather the Hero is a means by which the lost soul is rescued... you could equally say it would be wrong to promote the idea that the only means by which God can change the heart of unbelievers is through those that already believe in him. This is illustrated many times in the history of the Israelites when God used the evil nations surrounding them to bring his people closer. It really annoys me that we always say "the hero rescues the lost soul" but that's a fact about how the game is played, and not a theological statement IMHO.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Red on March 29, 2018, 01:37:33 PM
My biggest question at this point is what kind of research is being done from a biblical studies and church historical standpoint to determine alignment and identifiers. This is the same issue as all of the disciples not being martyrs. This kind of thing is my academic discipline and I wish I knew more about the sources used to make these kind of judgment calls.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: spacy32 on March 29, 2018, 02:00:08 PM
Quote from: jesse on March 27, 2018, 12:49:37 PM
Please excuse the bold - it is not "yelling" - I'm just trying to separate my commentary from the Scripture so it's easier to read  :)

Humans and angels/demons are different - they cannot interbreed.

"But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another." - 1 Corinthians 15:38-40

God would never allow a half-demon/half-human to exist, because it would be impossible for them to either serve God as an angel or be saved as a human (because Jesus died for humanity - Adam, Eve, and their offspring).

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." - 1 Corinthians 15:41-50

It was because of this that God ordained his people to wipe the nephilim of the face of the Earth. The Angels who came to Earth were disobedient to God's will by mating with the daughters of man. The saw the beauty of the daughters of man and wanted it for their own. Angels who disobey God are no longer angels. They are fallen Angels.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: NathanW on March 29, 2018, 02:01:00 PM
EDIT: This didn't help the discussion how I thought it would.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 02:05:28 PM
@Red, we use the Bible as a primary source and then anything else as a means to help us understand the Bible more accurately. Very often from my perspective, I am challenged to think about the text differently than I had in the past since we have a variety of viewpoints represented in our team.

@TripplePlayNa1, very well put and spot on.

@spacy32, I have even come across perspectives that say that the evil spirits that Jesus encountered were the souls of those demon/human half-breeds whose soul had no place to go after their bodies died. Not saying I buy that, but it is an interesting concept I had not considered before.

One question I have in relation to the Nephilim, if they are in fact simply larger humans born from a genetic confluence with fallen angels (i.e. demons who put on a human disguise like angels did quite often), is why does God continue to show them who he is if it is not to save their souls. When David defeats Goliath, he does so with an aim at letting the whole world "know that there is a God in Israel". Are the giants something God allowed to show his power and might so others would come to know Yahweh or was God reaching out to the giants themselves so that they would come to know him? Just something I thought about in studying this topic.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Xonathan on March 29, 2018, 02:21:55 PM
Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 02:05:28 PM
@Red, we use the Bible as a primary source and then anything else as a means to help us understand the Bible more accurately. Very often from my perspective, I am challenged to think about the text differently than I had in the past since we have a variety of viewpoints represented in our team.

@TripplePlayNa1, very well put and spot on.

@spacy32, I have even come across perspectives that say that the evil spirits that Jesus encountered were the souls of those demon/human half-breeds whose soul had no place to go after their bodies died. Not saying I buy that, but it is an interesting concept I had not considered before.

One question I have in relation to the Nephilim, if they are in fact simply larger humans born from a genetic confluence with fallen angels (i.e. demons who put on a human disguise like angels did quite often), is why does God continue to show them who he is if it is not to save their souls. When David defeats Goliath, he does so with an aim at letting the whole world "know that there is a God in Israel". Are the giants something God allowed to show his power and might so others would come to know Yahweh or was God reaching out to the giants themselves so that they would come to know him? Just something I thought about in studying this topic.

“As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" Jesus answered, " It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
John‬ 9:1-3‬ NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/jhn.9.1-3.nasb

Maybe you’re  on to something with the Giants  :)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Schaefer on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
I think that precedent for this situation has presented itself already, although with less of a heated debate, in ROJ with the Martyr identifier. Certain disciples were not given the Martyr identifier because of conflicting evidence and viewpoints based on biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints. The Nephilim being potentially not all evil or potentially good is of conflicting biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints as well so it seems weird that the nephilim seem to be getting different treatment than the disciples being martyrs situation.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Kevinthedude on March 29, 2018, 03:21:32 PM
Quote from: The Schaefer on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
I think that precedent for this situation has presented itself already, although with less of a heated debate, in ROJ with the Martyr identifier. Certain disciples were not given the Martyr identifier because of conflicting evidence and viewpoints based on biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints. The Nephilim being potentially not all evil or potentially good is of conflicting biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints as well so it seems weird that the nephilim seem to be getting different treatment than the disciples being martyrs situation.

I think that comparison would be more valid if the Nephilim were being made only Hero. By being DA, the card is saying they necessarily were Heroes; it's saying they might have been.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: spacy32 on March 29, 2018, 03:45:42 PM
Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 02:05:28 PM
@Red, we use the Bible as a primary source and then anything else as a means to help us understand the Bible more accurately. Very often from my perspective, I am challenged to think about the text differently than I had in the past since we have a variety of viewpoints represented in our team.

@TripplePlayNa1, very well put and spot on.

@spacy32, I have even come across perspectives that say that the evil spirits that Jesus encountered were the souls of those demon/human half-breeds whose soul had no place to go after their bodies died. Not saying I buy that, but it is an interesting concept I had not considered before.

One question I have in relation to the Nephilim, if they are in fact simply larger humans born from a genetic confluence with fallen angels (i.e. demons who put on a human disguise like angels did quite often), is why does God continue to show them who he is if it is not to save their souls. When David defeats Goliath, he does so with an aim at letting the whole world "know that there is a God in Israel". Are the giants something God allowed to show his power and might so others would come to know Yahweh or was God reaching out to the giants themselves so that they would come to know him? Just something I thought about in studying this topic.

I'm under the Romans answer. God hardened Pharaoh's heart to show his power. God sent his people to destroy them again to show his power. The giants would not choose God because it is not in their sinful nature.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Schaefer on March 29, 2018, 03:49:19 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 29, 2018, 03:21:32 PM
Quote from: The Schaefer on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
I think that precedent for this situation has presented itself already, although with less of a heated debate, in ROJ with the Martyr identifier. Certain disciples were not given the Martyr identifier because of conflicting evidence and viewpoints based on biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints. The Nephilim being potentially not all evil or potentially good is of conflicting biblical/historical evidence and viewpoints as well so it seems weird that the nephilim seem to be getting different treatment than the disciples being martyrs situation.

I think that comparison would be more valid if the Nephilim were being made only Hero. By being DA, the card is saying they necessarily were Heroes; it's saying they might have been.
I disagree with that assertion. I don't think you can make something DA because it might have been. To me DA is saying that it was both good and evil and there is evidence to support it. It might of been doesn't really hold much water to me to support anything at all. But I've also commented a lot on here and I don't want to just argue with everyone over it so I'm done. I have serious issues with the nephilim being good, I'm fine with my view being challenged but it doesn't change what implications making the nephilim good can have. If a trustworthy biblical/historical source is present that demonstrates the nephilim being good I will concede all issues with it. Until then it is cryptic interpretation at best imo.

Sorry if I've been ranting or seem offensive folks. Hopefully this just serves to show that our human knowledge is imperfect and reliance on the lord is key in all things.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 04:19:58 PM
So I am continuing to delve into this topic and now I am not sure Ham should be a Hero either...LOL.

Check out this article and take it for what it's worth: http://beginningandend.com/bloodlines-of-the-nephilim-a-biblical-study/ (http://beginningandend.com/bloodlines-of-the-nephilim-a-biblical-study/)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 29, 2018, 04:52:47 PM
Adam,Jacob, Elisha, etc. could easily be evil characters also but for ccgs caricatures are fine.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: egilkinc on March 29, 2018, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 29, 2018, 04:19:58 PM
So I am continuing to delve into this topic and now I am not sure Ham should be a Hero either...LOL.

Check out this article and take it for what it's worth: http://beginningandend.com/bloodlines-of-the-nephilim-a-biblical-study/ (http://beginningandend.com/bloodlines-of-the-nephilim-a-biblical-study/)

My wife points out Pharaoh's Daughter and Bathsheba as either potentially mis-aligned or, at the very least, ambivalent. It has been argued that Bathsheba was seducing David and later manipulated his decision about succession. What about her life indicates she is a Hero? Not looking to debate - I don't necessarily hold this myself, just pointing out that there more examples :-)
She also tries to make a bit of an argument for Orpah, but that's a bit weaker as she returned to her gods in contrast with Ruth.

... now, King Jehu, on the other hand ...
Gil
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 29, 2018, 05:35:46 PM
I don't get Orpah as an evil character either. Seems like the two women were at different stages in their life.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Sadness on March 29, 2018, 06:17:12 PM
Orpah being an evil character as she had the choice on whether or not to stay with her mother-in-law or return to her gods.

There are some other characters that could swing either way...King Solomon comes to mind as later in his life, it appears he rejected God by marrying foreign wives (women that didn't worship God, but idols).  One of King David's high priests did not support Solomon, but another of David's sons. 

The dual alignment card for characters is tricky at best and a headache inducer at worst. This card being one of the headache inducers and like Rob said earlier, provides discussion, Biblical prayer and seeking God for answers, plus checking various points of view.

My question is: if the card stays a DA, can we use a black sharpie to mark out the 'good side' without it being considered illegal for tournament play.

Thanks to y'all and God bless you
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 29, 2018, 09:01:55 PM
Quote from: Gabe on March 28, 2018, 11:55:38 PM
I'm unfamiliar with the "historical context" and long standing perception that you speak of. I don't believe a cultural bias that isn't grounded in scripture carries nearly the same weight, but if one exists I'd like to be familiar with it so we can consider all viewpoints as we move forward. Do you care to elaborate?

Certainly!  ;D

The context that I am referring to may indeed be the "cultural bias" you were referring to. However, since perception is still part of reality, I think we should be aware of the ramifications. Some hosts still use Redemption as an evangelistic tool, and others (like me!) cater to younger crowds. Neither of these audiences is concerned with scriptural research.

I remember the first time I had heard of the Nephilim back in the 1980s, because I heard them referenced several times in a row. First was in a novel, next was in an RPG, and then finally in a movie. I remember finding it odd that I had never heard of them before, then suddenly they were everywhere. Google and similar search engines were not a thing back then, so "research" was limited. But I looked them up (in the library!) because I was intrigued. All the searching I did, through art, fiction, TV, and movies all yielded the same results. The only references to them that I found were evil.

Now, admittedly, I was not a Christian back then, so I may have brushed off any Biblical references. I'm not sure. But since we seem to have plenty of scholarly Christians here on the Boards that had the same perception, I think the non-evil references to them would have been scarce at best.

With that said, however, I don't care enough about it to debate it further. I was just surprised to see something that I had researched long ago as being evil suddenly being portrayed as a hero in Redemption. You definitely get points for the shock effect.  :o    ;)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: egilkinc on March 30, 2018, 07:47:43 AM
I agree with much of what's being said here especially about how this issue and Redemption in general has sparked good discussion. Having said that, I strongly agree with Watchman492's excellent early assessment and don't think Nephilim are Heroic any more than Nimrod. It seems like Dual Alignment should reflect a clear change in a person i.e. King Saul, Jehu/King Jehu, and others. Even if Dual Alignment conveys a "maybe we could consider this ___ either/or", Nephilim have clearly been viewed as evil regardless of the possibility there may have been righteous people among them.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: VJ on March 30, 2018, 09:19:58 AM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 29, 2018, 09:01:55 PM

 The only references to them that I found were evil.


The same with me.

  While I was in Bible college the professor gave us several possible translations concerning the verses of Genesis 6:1-4.  This included fallen angels, the Sethite and fallen man translations.  However, regardless of who the Nephilim who, verse 5 told that man's wickedness was great upon the earth and every inclination of his heart was only evil all the time.

  Concerning the reference to "they were the heroes of old, men of renown" statement in verse 4, I thought of this the other night while watching the Travel Channel.  Josh Gates' new show was on and in one of the segments he was discussing Vlad the Impaler, the supposed inspiration for Dracula.  After Josh told his audience that Vlad was a very cruel ruler who murdered many of his enemies, he said that Vlad was considered a hero by some because he was able to unify the divided nation.

  Concerning the faithless spies report in Numbers 13:33.  The spies were very frighten by what they saw and they lost their faith in God's ability to save them.  In their fear their bad report included exaggerations and distortions.  They used a familiar term to describe the Anakites and this term was Nephilim.  This was used to evoke fear and in their exaggerations they added the comparison:  "we seemed like grasshoppers." 

VJ
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 30, 2018, 10:37:54 AM
Unless I missed it I’ve yet to see any compelling evidence from those who feel the Nephilim can be considered a hero as to what proof you can provide to support that position, other than the one word in that verse that says “hero,” which in other translations says “mighty men.”
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: emonier on March 30, 2018, 11:09:22 AM
The Nephilim are always spoken of as evil. Should be an evil character.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on March 30, 2018, 12:09:32 PM
The card feels like there was a great idea for a card, then you found a translation that refers to them as heroes to justify him being duel alignment.  This is a lot like if we tried to make Judas a duel alignment card because he was a disciple chosen by Jesus, therefore he can be at least part hero because it would make for a cool card.  I don't mean for this to be harsh or trying to lay blame, this is just what the situation feels like to me.  I know there is a lot of room for interpretation on this guy and some considerations need to be made for game play reasons, but this guy shouldn't be a hero
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 30, 2018, 12:32:17 PM
Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on March 30, 2018, 12:09:32 PM
This feels a lot like if we tried to make Judas a duel alignment card because he was a disciple chosen by Jesus, therefore he can be at least part hero.

I don't feel these two characters can be compared as the hero premise of Nephilim is based solely upon one questionably translated word that has been only recently translated as "hero," while other versions (including the original Hebrew) have it as "mighty men."  Judas was always the son of perdition.  He stole from the money box while he was a disciple.  There's nothing to say that he was ever a "good guy" but was picked by Jesus, from the very beginning, knowing that he was a thief and would betray Him.  That was Judas' purpose and role based upon his choices.  Judas is rightly aligned to be an EC in Redemption.  Nephilim is obviously considered evil because if they were "hero good guys" then why would God only save Noah and his family and not the Nephilim?  This simple fact is evidence by itself that they were evil beings (not to mention that the very next verse after the Nephilim being introduced into the world dealt with the evil that was in the world and why the world needed to be washed cleaned and needed a fresh start).  All association with them throughout history has been that they were evil beings.  There has been zero evidence showing the contrary.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on March 30, 2018, 01:10:34 PM
That's my point, just because nephilim was called a hero in some translation and Judas was called a disciple doesn't make them a hero
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 30, 2018, 03:47:55 PM
Gee, can't wait for more spoilers so we can criticize those too!  ::) :thumbup:
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Watchman on March 30, 2018, 03:55:54 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on March 30, 2018, 03:47:55 PM
Gee, can't wait for more spoilers so we can criticize those too!  ::) :thumbup:

Yeah because no constructive criticism from the community should ever be considered.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Gabe on March 30, 2018, 03:56:53 PM
Please view an announcement regarding Nephilim here (http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/a-giant-retraction-(aka-enoughlihim)/msg580881/#msg580881).

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 30, 2018, 03:47:55 PM
Gee, can't wait for more spoilers so we can criticize those too!  ::) :thumbup:

Apparently you saw the new ANB Dominant I recently spoiled in the deck building section, eh?
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 30, 2018, 04:04:16 PM
Quote from: Watchman492 on March 30, 2018, 03:55:54 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on March 30, 2018, 03:47:55 PM
Gee, can't wait for more spoilers so we can criticize those too!  ::) :thumbup:

Yeah because no constructive criticism from the community should ever be considered.  :thumbup:

Saying the same thing over and over again ceases to be constructive after, like, one page.
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: Daniel on March 30, 2018, 04:11:45 PM
(https://image.ibb.co/iO1UEn/nephilimlol.png)
Title: Re: Heroic Nephilim
Post by: The Guardian on March 30, 2018, 04:12:50 PM
+1 with Hobbit so if we continue to have posts unrelated to the discussion of the Nephilim I will lock this thread. The decision on the card has been made, so no further discussion is needed on that topic.  However, I'm totally fine with further discussion and/or research being shared.  8)

#CryingNephilim  ;D
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