Author Topic: Harry Potter  (Read 15226 times)

Offline Red

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2011, 12:07:42 AM »
0
The way I see it on the HP and such debate is that it's a product of imagination. Imagination is manifested in multiple forms one of which is to dream of something that is practically impossible. And if you can discern imagination from reality and know when imagination crosses it's boundaries you are ok.
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2011, 12:08:32 AM »
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So it's okay for someone to be violent with a significant other as long as they "make up for it" later?

Offline Josh

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2011, 12:33:37 AM »
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There are other people (stereotypically older and/or more conservative worldview) who dislike it.  Most of them have not read it personally, but have read about it.  They don't appreciate that the book makes using magic seem cool, and are concerned that it could lead susceptible readers down a bad path.

My comment on the emphasized phrases above:  Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.  Magic, in the books, is no different than the fictional abilities to read minds, walk through walls, or fly - it's just a "fact" about the human race in the books that some can use it and some can not. 

I'll echo Pol's response - most of my views on the subject have already been expressed, primarily in steffer's post.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2011, 02:50:16 AM »
+1
entertaining works of fiction. If you leave it at that, you're fine.
if you are mentally mature and strong in your faith I see absolutely no problems with reading a fiction book.
And if you can discern imagination from reality and know when imagination crosses it's boundaries you are ok.
I'm not a big fan of the argument that because something is fictional, that makes it OK (or at least for people who know it's fictional).  Anime porn is fictional.  But just because someone realizes that the girl there is not a real person, doesn't make it right to watch it.  And neither does the idea that the movie has a lot of great artwork around the naked girls, or the story is really good.  If magic is bad, then it seems wrong for fictional magic to present it as good, and it seems wrong for Christians to find entertainment from that.

Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.
My understanding of the books is that the people who are born with the ability to use magic are presented as being superior to the muggles who are not.  Am I mistaken about this?

Offline Sadness

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2011, 08:22:56 AM »
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Yes,you are correct. The witches&wizards are seen as superior to the Muggles,who can't use magic.
I see no need to list Scripture on this. We all have,at one point or another,heard/read the verse that says you will not let a witch live and that witchcraft is a abomination to God. But if you want Scripture verses,here they are: Exodus 22:18,Deuteronomy 18:9-14,1 Samuel 15:23,Galatians 5:19-21.  I'm using the KJV btw.

Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108,you must carefully chose on this. I'd recommend doing a Google search on Harry Potter,both for&against sides. The arguments on both sides might help make up your mind concerning this.

Good luck and God bless ya.
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Offline The Warrior

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2011, 12:17:54 PM »
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I Have Read Chronicles of Narnia,Lord of the Rings, and Numerous Star Wars Novels.
Magic,Witchcraft,"The Force",Biblical Healing Abilities : they all do Generally the same thing. I Guess the Difference in them is the Origin of your power of choice. Witchcraft and Wizardry are Evil And Dark in the real world and are based in the demonic. Fiction Magic is More of a Light/Dark Spectrum and Originate with either Yourself  or Even (In LotR) The Creator or God-Figure(Eru)

Magic is a vague Blanket Term for 2 things that are Actually Different.
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2011, 12:55:36 PM »
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I'm starting to get really annoy with people comparing the use of magic in harry potter to pornography....

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2011, 01:34:41 PM »
+7
I'm starting to get really annoy with people comparing the use of magic in harry potter to pornography....

This coming from a guy who compares Disney cartoons to domestic violence....  ;)
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2011, 01:51:18 PM »
+1
Quote
1 Corinthians 10:23-33
23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
There is your answer on the rightness of it. If it causes people who believe it is evil to do it against their conscience then don't. I had a friend who loved MMOs but thought that a christian should not be a magic user (I myself enjoy playing mages, healers,and warlocks in MMOs), while playing with this person I used rouges and archers in order for the other person to not go against their convictions. The only time this doesn't apply is when their beliefs directly contradict the bible, which you should help them understand if that is the issue.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2011, 02:02:56 PM »
+2

Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.
My understanding of the books is that the people who are born with the ability to use magic are presented as being superior to the muggles who are not.  Am I mistaken about this?

Depends on what you mean by "presented as being superior to the muggles". 

If you mean "they can do things that muggles can't", then yes, they are presented as superior, in the same way that a book about Usain Bolt would present him as superior to other humans in terms of speed.

If you mean "they are intrinsically superior to muggles", then no, they are not presented as superior.  In fact, the only places in the books that suggestions of wizards' superiority arise is with the evil wizards, who believe that muggles are inferior and should be eradicated.  The good wizards are taught, and firmly believe, that wizards are NOT intrinsically superior to muggles.  Many good wizards die protecting muggles.  There is a genuine theme of "To those whom much has been given, much will be required" running through the books in regards to wizards' abilities.
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2011, 03:58:15 PM »
+1
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Fiction != harmless. 

Are you any less of a Christian having read the Artemis Fowl books? No.
I was simply disagreeing with your postulation that being fiction made it so that they couldn't corrupt children.

Still not one verse quoted.  Interesting.

I am curious about something.  Is it anything in fiction/entertainment that is supernatural that is perceived by some to be wrong, or just "magic"?  I mean if you think about it, no natural thing can do something supernatural without the power of God, so does this make things like comic book heroes blasphemous too?  Is anything that involves a sentient race besides human beings somehow anti-God?  What about movies with animals that speak in human languages?  What about movies where toys are actually alive?  All these things are impossible, except for God, and yet they are considered OK for entertainment and good for our imaginations, even though only God could make that happen.  But if a character suddenly pulls out a wand, says some latin words, and something supernatural happens, then here comes the flood of criticism.  I consider myself a generally "conservative" person, and I have only watched the HP movies, but I never felt like I was being encouraged to go out and start practicing sorcery or witchcraft, and I have never heard of the author encouraging this behavior either.  If I am wrong then certainly please cite the sources.

I AM NOT suggesting that anyone watch the HP movies or read the books.  It is not my place as a Christian to invite brethren to sin against their conscience, anymore than they can say that it is a sin for every Christian to watch a HP movie.  According to Romans 14 and other passages, for the Christian who has doubts already, it WOULD be a sin for them to do so, and they should abstain. I just hope that Christians the world over will so zealously fight the more important theological battles of our time as they have the HP series.  The world is not turning into a bunch of witches and wizards.  It is turning to Islam, Atheism, immorality, and overall apathy toward God/Christ, His word, and to our fellow man.  Let's focus on the big picture.

Just one person's thoughts out of many.
I tend to disagree with Steff on a lot of things, but this really stood out to me.  Imagine if Christians went after gossip and hypocrisy the way we go after homosexuality and things like Harry Potter/Golden Compass.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2011, 12:12:34 AM »
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If the argument here is simply that Harry Potter has the potential to corrupt children than sure, but then again when children are given pretty much anything without guidance it can corrupt them. I wouldn't want my kids reading the majority of the old testament without guidance.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2011, 03:45:26 PM »
+1
I pretty much agree with the overall spirit of this thread, and as I mentioned, I'm a huge fan of the entire franchise. I agree that, if you feel you're being told by the Holy Spirit that you shouldn't read Harry Potter, you shouldn't allow other people to attempt to influence you to read them against what you believe to be right. That said, neither is it anybody's responsibility to declare that Harry Potter is evil and shouldn't be read by any self-declared Christians. I believe it falls strictly within the "live and let live" gray area - it's going to be right for some and not for others. Beyond that, I believe everything else has been stated two or three times in this thread. It is encouraging to see so much support - however tentative some of it is - for the series here though, especially from stef, who's notably one of the more conservative members.

Offline soul seeker

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2011, 06:00:53 PM »
+1
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'

As far as the thread goes, I agree with Prof U on pretty much everything he has said in this thread.  I find it alarming how easy things get turned around in this world.  One sad day, Revelation 9:20-21 will ring too true with the Revelation 11:9-10 celebration becoming a reality. Stuff like this turns the tide of popular opinion.  Mark, I've appreciated your thoughts....you do not stand alone.
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Rawrlolsauce!

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2011, 06:13:18 PM »
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In the great Kingdom of Swaziland, you're a man after finishing school and you switch from mining to farming, at the age of 13.

EDIT: Actually, that isn't true. I looked it up and Swaziland has the highest age of majority in the world (tied with several other countries).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:23:56 PM by Rawrlolsauce! »

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2011, 06:19:00 PM »
+3
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.

Offline soul seeker

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2011, 08:53:55 PM »
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Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.
I think I see what you are getting at, but it is interesting to note that according to psychologists/people who study brain development, assert that a person's brain is not fully developed until age 24.  Interestingly, the part of the brain that uses proper judgement is the last part that develops.  Examples of this explains why it is stereotypical for youth/college age to throw caution to the wind without properly considering consequences.  I wonder if that is why car rental places wait until 24 before they rent out cars?
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2011, 09:12:15 PM »
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Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.
I think I see what you are getting at, but it is interesting to note that according to psychologists/people who study brain development, assert that a person's brain is not fully developed until age 24.  Interestingly, the part of the brain that uses proper judgement is the last part that develops.  Examples of this explains why it is stereotypical for youth/college age to throw caution to the wind without properly considering consequences.  I wonder if that is why car rental places wait until 24 before they rent out cars?

Strictly speaking, brain development ends at about age 16, regarding physical size. Emotional development, which is what you're talking about stops maturing about age 22 for women, and age 27 for men, though alcohol and other drugs can end that maturation sooner. Car rental agencies generally have a surcharge for people under the age of 25, but many do allow it.

Offline Sadness

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2011, 09:20:04 PM »
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Guys&gals,
We try 13yr olds as adults for a murder commited. Back during the late 1800's to early
1900's,if the parent died,the oldest child was considered the adult of the household.
Sometimes the child was only 7,but became the adult because he had to. The age of accountability
is going lower each year. What is the age now where a child knows the difference between
good&evil,right&wrong?  The days of childhood innocence are rapidly falling away.
We will be going home to Jesus soon!

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2011, 09:45:46 PM »
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I agree with Prof U on pretty much everything he has said in this thread.
Wow, I had no idea that refraining from giving you a hard time after the UK-UNC game would bring such benefits :)

Seriously though, thanks for the support.  I continue to have to deal with this as I try to determine what to do with my own kids regarding Chronicles of Narnia/Lord of the Rings/Harry Potter.  One thing that came up in this thread is the distinction of the source of the magical power.

Chronicles clearly distinguishes the magic of the White Witch (evil - perhaps like magic in our world) from the deeper magic of Aslan (good - perhaps like miracles in our world).  LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).  Does Harry Potter also point to separate sources for the magic of Harry and Vordemort, or do they just use the same power for different purposes?

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »
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LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).
As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.

Offline Josh

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2011, 10:04:01 PM »
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Does Harry Potter also point to separate sources for the magic of Harry and Vordemort, or do they just use the same power for different purposes?

The books are mum on the subject, because it is irrelevant.  The ability to use "magic" in Harry Potter is the same as the ability to multiply 3 digit numbers together in one's mind - some can do it, some can not.  Similarly, it would be redundant for the story of Jesus' crucifixion to mention that the ability to think was used for good by Jesus and for evil by the Pharisees/Sadducees/high priests. 
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2011, 10:10:28 PM »
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LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).
As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.

Their powers come from different sources. Have you ever read the Silmarillion? The evil magic in LotR is Morgoth (and later, Sauron) attempting to re-create the good magic that the good guys - elves, istari, Noldor, etc. - do with the power that is given them. Palantiri are an example of this. They were made by the Noldor, but one was captured by Sauron and he used it to control the others.


On the original topic, I have neither read nor seen Harry Potter. As my opinions have already been expressed on this thread by people who have, I will not add anything.
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2011, 10:42:01 PM »
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LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).
As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.
Their powers come from different sources. Have you ever read the Silmarillion? The evil magic in LotR is Morgoth (and later, Sauron) attempting to re-create the good magic that the good guys - elves, istari, Noldor, etc. - do with the power that is given them. Palantiri are an example of this. They were made by the Noldor, but one was captured by Sauron and he used it to control the others.
I've tried to read the Silmarillion 3 times. I failed.

Regardless, you wouldn't know this if not for that book, so if you pretend Harry Potter has a similar guideline, does that magically make it okay? If Rowling created a book explaining the "behind the scenes" of magic and had them have different sources, how does it change anything?

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2011, 10:50:57 PM »
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I've tried to read the Silmarillion 3 times. I failed.

So did I, except that I succeeded the 3rd time. I know how you feel.

you wouldn't know this if not for that book

Not all of this is Silmarillion. Aragorn mentions a similar concept about fire on Weathertop and Gandalf explains about the Palantiri to Pippin. The Silmarillion merely goes more in-depth.


If Rowling published such a book, it would distinguish between the two for many concerned people. I'm not saying that that makes it right, but it would make it better for a lot of people.
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