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Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: The Warrior on December 16, 2011, 11:10:29 AM

Title: Harry Potter
Post by: The Warrior on December 16, 2011, 11:10:29 AM
I'm Starting to Read the Harry Potter Series for the first time. What is the general opinion of This Series on this forum?

Please No Spoilers.

oh and
Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 16, 2011, 12:47:19 PM
I have a highly positive view of the series, having started it two years ago and having read it through three times since then. There's a nice progression from light-hearted innocence to the core of the story and writing, and Rowling really showed her maturity there. I have minor issues with each of the books (mostly the final one - Deathly Hallows), but all the same I love and enjoy them.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 16, 2011, 02:01:06 PM
I would say that the general feeling on the Harry Potter series here on the forum is divided.

There are some people (stereotypically younger and/or more liberal worldview) who love it.  Many read it as kids and love how it encouraged reading among many of their generation.  They don't view the magic in the series to be significantly different than that of Narnia or Lord of the Rings, and even point to some Christian allegory within Harry Potter as well.

There are other people (stereotypically older and/or more conservative worldview) who dislike it.  Most of them have not read it personally, but have read about it.  They don't appreciate that the book makes using magic seem cool, and are concerned that it could lead susceptible readers down a bad path.  They differentiate HP from Narnia and LotR because the authors of those series were outspoken Christians (and in Narnia's case it is stated to be a Christian allegory), and also because those are old enough that they are considered classics within the Christian community.

Personally I'm rather torn on the issue.  I haven't read them.  I do know a lot about them.  I am in the older/more conservative crowd on the forum.  I don't like magic in a book being presented as heroic.  However, I have a hard time making a clear case for why it's different than Gandalf in LotR (which I do like).  So for me the jury is still out on HP.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: CJSports on December 16, 2011, 04:35:20 PM
I would say that the general feeling on the Harry Potter series here on the forum is divided.

There are some people (stereotypically younger and/or more liberal worldview) who love it.  Many read it as kids and love how it encouraged reading among many of their generation.  They don't view the magic in the series to be significantly different than that of Narnia or Lord of the Rings, and even point to some Christian allegory within Harry Potter as well.

There are other people (stereotypically older and/or more conservative worldview) who dislike it.  Most of them have not read it personally, but have read about it.  They don't appreciate that the book makes using magic seem cool, and are concerned that it could lead susceptible readers down a bad path.  They differentiate HP from Narnia and LotR because the authors of those series were outspoken Christians (and in Narnia's case it is stated to be a Christian allegory), and also because those are old enough that they are considered classics within the Christian community.

Personally I'm rather torn on the issue.  I haven't read them.  I do know a lot about them.  I am in the older/more conservative crowd on the forum.  I don't like magic in a book being presented as heroic.  However, I have a hard time making a clear case for why it's different than Gandalf in LotR (which I do like).  So for me the jury is still out on HP.

I think the difference in LotR that Tolkien shows magic on so much less of a degree and doesn't have as big of an impact. So when I look at LotR I think of fighting with swords and shields but when I hear Harry Potter I think of Magic. I did like the series very much. I do think that until you are at a mature age that you shouldn't be reading the book without some kind of parent guiding you through it.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 16, 2011, 05:04:23 PM
I'm old and conservative, but I watched all the movies, and my wife and son have read the books (together, which I recommend). I found the movies entertaining. I may be somewhat biased, though, since I have loved LotR and Narnia for years.

I work at Disney, so magic is a way of life.  ;)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: browarod on December 16, 2011, 05:41:32 PM
I have the same basic opinion of the Harry Potter series (the movies, rather, I haven't read the books yet (they're on my to do list)) as I did of the Da Vinci Code: Great, entertaining works of fiction. If you leave it at that, you're fine. It's only if you take it further that you begin to run into problems.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 16, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
I think the difference in LotR that Tolkien shows magic on so much less of a degree and doesn't have as big of an impact.
I'm not a big fan of distinction based on degree.  If something is wrong, then a little of it is usually still wrong.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Sean on December 16, 2011, 06:27:33 PM
Quote
and in Narnia's case it is stated to be a Christian allegory
Actually, I believe that is false.  Lewis' called the Christian aspects of Narnia a "supposition."  Lewis always said that Narnia was not meant to be allegorical.

Other than that, I agree with Prof Underwood's assessment.

Put me in the camp of people who do not like witchcraft, real or imaginary.  Harry Potter is an easy no for me on that issue.  Narnia is still something that my wife and I will question until the Holy Spirit tells us one way or another. (we are currently reading the series)  Neither of us have read LotR but I imagine it will be similar to Narnia.  For me, the fact the difference of having magic be evil and magic be the center is a big deal.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 16, 2011, 06:37:32 PM
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 16, 2011, 06:44:37 PM
Magic in LotR is pretty scarce.

It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Many rated R movies have those as well, but the junk you witness in the journey is not comforting in the least.

I understand why people don't like Harry Potter, but I plan on reading it before judging it...I've been saying that for the past 3 years though.

inb4pol
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 16, 2011, 06:55:22 PM
I'm old and conservative, but I watched all the movies, and my wife and son have read the books (together, which I recommend). I found the movies entertaining. I may be somewhat biased, though, since I have loved LotR and Narnia for years.

I work at Disney, so magic is a way of life.  ;)
The irony of HP being in Universal's islands of adventure makes it all the more funny.

Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
I can, even if I do not agree. The people who have talked to me about the evils of magic being in a game or book is that people who truly do use magic can use the harmlessness of magic to lure them into real magic like marijuana leads into harder drugs. This same issue will apply to D&D, MTG, HP, and any game where magic is not inherently evil.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 16, 2011, 07:05:20 PM
Friendship is good. Friendship is magic. Therefore, magic is good.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 16, 2011, 07:07:33 PM
Friendship is good. Friendship is magic. Therefore, magic is good.

Magic is so good in Orlando that we named our NBA basketball team after it.  :o
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 16, 2011, 07:32:46 PM
Did someone just say that reading books or playing games involving magic leads to marijuana use? lolwut?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 16, 2011, 07:50:19 PM
No. He suggested marijuana is a gateway drug. Don't you know that it is responsible fo--

Nevermind. I won't go there.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 16, 2011, 08:21:39 PM
The bottom line here is that the Harry Potter books are about as evil as Disney movies. Less so, Harry Potter teaches valuable lessons, disney movies teach you to marry the first person you see after you wake up just because they kissed you (snow white), making a deal with evil is okay as long as everything works out in the end (the little mermaid), just because someone is abusive doesn't mean you should leave them (beauty and the beast), and it's okay to be different, you just mix with the different people (fox and the hound).

Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: drb1200 on December 16, 2011, 08:24:58 PM
Quote
just because someone is abusive doesn't mean you should leave them (beauty and the beast), and it's okay to be different, you just mix with the different people (fox and the hound).
woah Woah WOAH!!! Totally not true!! Beauty and the Beast is how love triumphs beauty, and fox and the hound is an anti-racist film.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 16, 2011, 08:30:29 PM
Quote
just because someone is abusive doesn't mean you should leave them (beauty and the beast), and it's okay to be different, you just mix with the different people (fox and the hound).
woah Woah WOAH!!! Totally not true!! Beauty and the Beast is how love triumphs beauty, and fox and the hound is an anti-racist film.

Really? Let's examine that. The first thing the Beast does to Bell is lock her up in a dungeon. Then when he finally let her out, he spent the majority of the time insulting her at the top of his lungs and almost hit her on more than one occasion. But all of that is just so trivial

As for the fox and the hound, the only reason the hunter let the fox live was when the fox saved his life and even then were the fox and the hound allowed to be together? Nope. The hunter took the hound back home and the fox had to stay in the woods.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Sadness on December 16, 2011, 09:49:13 PM
I have read all 7 Harry Potter novels,but only watched the first 4 movies. The movies greatly left stuff out that was in the books. That aside,I don't watch or read the stuff anymore. At the time,it was all the rage and my better judgement went out the window. If I had known then what I know now, I would have had nothing to do with the books or the movies.

Best advice I can give is this: 1-would you want to be reading that if Jesus was sitting next to you?
                                                   2-pray long&hard before you start down this road.

God bless ya whatever your decision is.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: SomeKittens on December 16, 2011, 10:25:11 PM
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Fiction != harmless.   (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: CJSports on December 16, 2011, 10:30:09 PM
I don't know how this has to much to do with the conversation seeing as that is a real life story. But honestly I I'm kinda balanced on this,like I said if you are mentally mature and strong in your faith I see absolutely no problems with reading a fiction book.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 16, 2011, 10:48:37 PM
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Fiction != harmless.   (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)

Are you any less of a Christian having read the Artemis Fowl books? No.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 16, 2011, 11:06:11 PM
Still not one verse quoted.  Interesting.

I am curious about something.  Is it anything in fiction/entertainment that is supernatural that is perceived by some to be wrong, or just "magic"?  I mean if you think about it, no natural thing can do something supernatural without the power of God, so does this make things like comic book heroes blasphemous too?  Is anything that involves a sentient race besides human beings somehow anti-God?  What about movies with animals that speak in human languages?  What about movies where toys are actually alive?  All these things are impossible, except for God, and yet they are considered OK for entertainment and good for our imaginations, even though only God could make that happen.  But if a character suddenly pulls out a wand, says some latin words, and something supernatural happens, then here comes the flood of criticism.  Here, the wizards are "born" magical and go to school to learn how to increase those abilities and use them responsibly.  In Star Wars, some people are born with an aptitude for "the force" and go to the Jedi Temple to learn how to increase those abilities and use them responsibly.  What is the big difference here please?  I consider myself a generally "conservative" person, and I have only watched the HP movies, but I never felt like I was being encouraged to go out and start practicing sorcery or witchcraft, and I have never heard of the author encouraging this behavior either.  If I am wrong then certainly please cite the sources.

I AM NOT suggesting that anyone watch the HP movies or read the books.  It is not my place as a Christian to invite brethren to sin against their conscience, anymore than they can say that it is a sin for every Christian to watch a HP movie.  According to Romans 14 and other passages, for the Christian who has doubts already, it WOULD be a sin for them to do so, and they should abstain.  I just hope that Christians the world over will so zealously fight the more important theological battles of our time as they have the HP series.  The world is not turning into a bunch of witches and wizards.  It is turning to Islam, Atheism, immorality, and overall apathy toward God/Christ, His word, and to our fellow man.  Let's focus on the big picture.

Just one person's thoughts out of many.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: katedid on December 16, 2011, 11:21:59 PM
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Fiction != harmless.   (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)

That is disturbing and there is a heck of a lot more going on there than someone imitating what they see.

I couple other things:
1. In the HP world, magic is not something that you can get from somewhere and manipulate, its an inborn characteristic that one must learn to control or you might die- not unlike any superhero power
2. Magic is treated more like a science

Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 16, 2011, 11:37:22 PM
Normally I'd be all over this thread, but all of my views are already represented by someone or another.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Red on December 17, 2011, 12:07:42 AM
The way I see it on the HP and such debate is that it's a product of imagination. Imagination is manifested in multiple forms one of which is to dream of something that is practically impossible. And if you can discern imagination from reality and know when imagination crosses it's boundaries you are ok.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 17, 2011, 12:08:32 AM
So it's okay for someone to be violent with a significant other as long as they "make up for it" later?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Josh on December 17, 2011, 12:33:37 AM
There are other people (stereotypically older and/or more conservative worldview) who dislike it.  Most of them have not read it personally, but have read about it.  They don't appreciate that the book makes using magic seem cool, and are concerned that it could lead susceptible readers down a bad path.

My comment on the emphasized phrases above:  Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.  Magic, in the books, is no different than the fictional abilities to read minds, walk through walls, or fly - it's just a "fact" about the human race in the books that some can use it and some can not. 

I'll echo Pol's response - most of my views on the subject have already been expressed, primarily in steffer's post.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 17, 2011, 02:50:16 AM
entertaining works of fiction. If you leave it at that, you're fine.
if you are mentally mature and strong in your faith I see absolutely no problems with reading a fiction book.
And if you can discern imagination from reality and know when imagination crosses it's boundaries you are ok.
I'm not a big fan of the argument that because something is fictional, that makes it OK (or at least for people who know it's fictional).  Anime porn is fictional.  But just because someone realizes that the girl there is not a real person, doesn't make it right to watch it.  And neither does the idea that the movie has a lot of great artwork around the naked girls, or the story is really good.  If magic is bad, then it seems wrong for fictional magic to present it as good, and it seems wrong for Christians to find entertainment from that.

Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.
My understanding of the books is that the people who are born with the ability to use magic are presented as being superior to the muggles who are not.  Am I mistaken about this?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Sadness on December 17, 2011, 08:22:56 AM
Yes,you are correct. The witches&wizards are seen as superior to the Muggles,who can't use magic.
I see no need to list Scripture on this. We all have,at one point or another,heard/read the verse that says you will not let a witch live and that witchcraft is a abomination to God. But if you want Scripture verses,here they are: Exodus 22:18,Deuteronomy 18:9-14,1 Samuel 15:23,Galatians 5:19-21.  I'm using the KJV btw.

Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108,you must carefully chose on this. I'd recommend doing a Google search on Harry Potter,both for&against sides. The arguments on both sides might help make up your mind concerning this.

Good luck and God bless ya.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: The Warrior on December 17, 2011, 12:17:54 PM
I Have Read Chronicles of Narnia,Lord of the Rings, and Numerous Star Wars Novels.
Magic,Witchcraft,"The Force",Biblical Healing Abilities : they all do Generally the same thing. I Guess the Difference in them is the Origin of your power of choice. Witchcraft and Wizardry are Evil And Dark in the real world and are based in the demonic. Fiction Magic is More of a Light/Dark Spectrum and Originate with either Yourself  or Even (In LotR) The Creator or God-Figure(Eru)

Magic is a vague Blanket Term for 2 things that are Actually Different.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 17, 2011, 12:55:36 PM
I'm starting to get really annoy with people comparing the use of magic in harry potter to pornography....
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 17, 2011, 01:34:41 PM
I'm starting to get really annoy with people comparing the use of magic in harry potter to pornography....

This coming from a guy who compares Disney cartoons to domestic violence....  ;)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 17, 2011, 01:51:18 PM
Quote
1 Corinthians 10:23-33
23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
There is your answer on the rightness of it. If it causes people who believe it is evil to do it against their conscience then don't. I had a friend who loved MMOs but thought that a christian should not be a magic user (I myself enjoy playing mages, healers,and warlocks in MMOs), while playing with this person I used rouges and archers in order for the other person to not go against their convictions. The only time this doesn't apply is when their beliefs directly contradict the bible, which you should help them understand if that is the issue.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Josh on December 17, 2011, 02:02:56 PM

Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.
My understanding of the books is that the people who are born with the ability to use magic are presented as being superior to the muggles who are not.  Am I mistaken about this?

Depends on what you mean by "presented as being superior to the muggles". 

If you mean "they can do things that muggles can't", then yes, they are presented as superior, in the same way that a book about Usain Bolt would present him as superior to other humans in terms of speed.

If you mean "they are intrinsically superior to muggles", then no, they are not presented as superior.  In fact, the only places in the books that suggestions of wizards' superiority arise is with the evil wizards, who believe that muggles are inferior and should be eradicated.  The good wizards are taught, and firmly believe, that wizards are NOT intrinsically superior to muggles.  Many good wizards die protecting muggles.  There is a genuine theme of "To those whom much has been given, much will be required" running through the books in regards to wizards' abilities.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: SomeKittens on December 17, 2011, 03:58:15 PM
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.
Fiction != harmless.   (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)

Are you any less of a Christian having read the Artemis Fowl books? No.
I was simply disagreeing with your postulation that being fiction made it so that they couldn't corrupt children.

Still not one verse quoted.  Interesting.

I am curious about something.  Is it anything in fiction/entertainment that is supernatural that is perceived by some to be wrong, or just "magic"?  I mean if you think about it, no natural thing can do something supernatural without the power of God, so does this make things like comic book heroes blasphemous too?  Is anything that involves a sentient race besides human beings somehow anti-God?  What about movies with animals that speak in human languages?  What about movies where toys are actually alive?  All these things are impossible, except for God, and yet they are considered OK for entertainment and good for our imaginations, even though only God could make that happen.  But if a character suddenly pulls out a wand, says some latin words, and something supernatural happens, then here comes the flood of criticism.  I consider myself a generally "conservative" person, and I have only watched the HP movies, but I never felt like I was being encouraged to go out and start practicing sorcery or witchcraft, and I have never heard of the author encouraging this behavior either.  If I am wrong then certainly please cite the sources.

I AM NOT suggesting that anyone watch the HP movies or read the books.  It is not my place as a Christian to invite brethren to sin against their conscience, anymore than they can say that it is a sin for every Christian to watch a HP movie.  According to Romans 14 and other passages, for the Christian who has doubts already, it WOULD be a sin for them to do so, and they should abstain. I just hope that Christians the world over will so zealously fight the more important theological battles of our time as they have the HP series.  The world is not turning into a bunch of witches and wizards.  It is turning to Islam, Atheism, immorality, and overall apathy toward God/Christ, His word, and to our fellow man.  Let's focus on the big picture.

Just one person's thoughts out of many.
I tend to disagree with Steff on a lot of things, but this really stood out to me.  Imagine if Christians went after gossip and hypocrisy the way we go after homosexuality and things like Harry Potter/Golden Compass.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 18, 2011, 12:12:34 AM
If the argument here is simply that Harry Potter has the potential to corrupt children than sure, but then again when children are given pretty much anything without guidance it can corrupt them. I wouldn't want my kids reading the majority of the old testament without guidance.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 18, 2011, 03:45:26 PM
I pretty much agree with the overall spirit of this thread, and as I mentioned, I'm a huge fan of the entire franchise. I agree that, if you feel you're being told by the Holy Spirit that you shouldn't read Harry Potter, you shouldn't allow other people to attempt to influence you to read them against what you believe to be right. That said, neither is it anybody's responsibility to declare that Harry Potter is evil and shouldn't be read by any self-declared Christians. I believe it falls strictly within the "live and let live" gray area - it's going to be right for some and not for others. Beyond that, I believe everything else has been stated two or three times in this thread. It is encouraging to see so much support - however tentative some of it is - for the series here though, especially from stef, who's notably one of the more conservative members.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: soul seeker on December 18, 2011, 06:00:53 PM
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'

As far as the thread goes, I agree with Prof U on pretty much everything he has said in this thread.  I find it alarming how easy things get turned around in this world.  One sad day, Revelation 9:20-21 will ring too true with the Revelation 11:9-10 celebration becoming a reality. Stuff like this turns the tide of popular opinion.  Mark, I've appreciated your thoughts....you do not stand alone.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 18, 2011, 06:13:18 PM
In the great Kingdom of Swaziland, you're a man after finishing school and you switch from mining to farming, at the age of 13.

EDIT: Actually, that isn't true. I looked it up and Swaziland has the highest age of majority in the world (tied with several other countries).
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 18, 2011, 06:19:00 PM
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: soul seeker on December 18, 2011, 08:53:55 PM
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.
I think I see what you are getting at, but it is interesting to note that according to psychologists/people who study brain development, assert that a person's brain is not fully developed until age 24.  Interestingly, the part of the brain that uses proper judgement is the last part that develops.  Examples of this explains why it is stereotypical for youth/college age to throw caution to the wind without properly considering consequences.  I wonder if that is why car rental places wait until 24 before they rent out cars?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 18, 2011, 09:12:15 PM
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 108
8 year olds are not adults.  Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds.  Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.
I think I see what you are getting at, but it is interesting to note that according to psychologists/people who study brain development, assert that a person's brain is not fully developed until age 24.  Interestingly, the part of the brain that uses proper judgement is the last part that develops.  Examples of this explains why it is stereotypical for youth/college age to throw caution to the wind without properly considering consequences.  I wonder if that is why car rental places wait until 24 before they rent out cars?

Strictly speaking, brain development ends at about age 16, regarding physical size. Emotional development, which is what you're talking about stops maturing about age 22 for women, and age 27 for men, though alcohol and other drugs can end that maturation sooner. Car rental agencies generally have a surcharge for people under the age of 25, but many do allow it.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Sadness on December 18, 2011, 09:20:04 PM
Guys&gals,
We try 13yr olds as adults for a murder commited. Back during the late 1800's to early
1900's,if the parent died,the oldest child was considered the adult of the household.
Sometimes the child was only 7,but became the adult because he had to. The age of accountability
is going lower each year. What is the age now where a child knows the difference between
good&evil,right&wrong?  The days of childhood innocence are rapidly falling away.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 18, 2011, 09:45:46 PM
I agree with Prof U on pretty much everything he has said in this thread.
Wow, I had no idea that refraining from giving you a hard time after the UK-UNC game would bring such benefits :)

Seriously though, thanks for the support.  I continue to have to deal with this as I try to determine what to do with my own kids regarding Chronicles of Narnia/Lord of the Rings/Harry Potter.  One thing that came up in this thread is the distinction of the source of the magical power.

Chronicles clearly distinguishes the magic of the White Witch (evil - perhaps like magic in our world) from the deeper magic of Aslan (good - perhaps like miracles in our world).  LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).  Does Harry Potter also point to separate sources for the magic of Harry and Vordemort, or do they just use the same power for different purposes?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 18, 2011, 09:55:16 PM
LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).
As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Josh on December 18, 2011, 10:04:01 PM
Does Harry Potter also point to separate sources for the magic of Harry and Vordemort, or do they just use the same power for different purposes?

The books are mum on the subject, because it is irrelevant.  The ability to use "magic" in Harry Potter is the same as the ability to multiply 3 digit numbers together in one's mind - some can do it, some can not.  Similarly, it would be redundant for the story of Jesus' crucifixion to mention that the ability to think was used for good by Jesus and for evil by the Pharisees/Sadducees/high priests. 
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Bobbert on December 18, 2011, 10:10:28 PM
LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).
As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.

Their powers come from different sources. Have you ever read the Silmarillion? The evil magic in LotR is Morgoth (and later, Sauron) attempting to re-create the good magic that the good guys - elves, istari, Noldor, etc. - do with the power that is given them. Palantiri are an example of this. They were made by the Noldor, but one was captured by Sauron and he used it to control the others.


On the original topic, I have neither read nor seen Harry Potter. As my opinions have already been expressed on this thread by people who have, I will not add anything.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 18, 2011, 10:42:01 PM
LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).
As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.
Their powers come from different sources. Have you ever read the Silmarillion? The evil magic in LotR is Morgoth (and later, Sauron) attempting to re-create the good magic that the good guys - elves, istari, Noldor, etc. - do with the power that is given them. Palantiri are an example of this. They were made by the Noldor, but one was captured by Sauron and he used it to control the others.
I've tried to read the Silmarillion 3 times. I failed.

Regardless, you wouldn't know this if not for that book, so if you pretend Harry Potter has a similar guideline, does that magically make it okay? If Rowling created a book explaining the "behind the scenes" of magic and had them have different sources, how does it change anything?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Bobbert on December 18, 2011, 10:50:57 PM
I've tried to read the Silmarillion 3 times. I failed.

So did I, except that I succeeded the 3rd time. I know how you feel.

you wouldn't know this if not for that book

Not all of this is Silmarillion. Aragorn mentions a similar concept about fire on Weathertop and Gandalf explains about the Palantiri to Pippin. The Silmarillion merely goes more in-depth.


If Rowling published such a book, it would distinguish between the two for many concerned people. I'm not saying that that makes it right, but it would make it better for a lot of people.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 18, 2011, 11:05:49 PM
(evil - perhaps like magic in our world)

....magic in our world..like magicians....cause there is not such thing as magic.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 18, 2011, 11:11:03 PM
If Rowling created a book explaining the "behind the scenes" of magic and had them have different sources, how does it change anything?
I think it might change something for me.  I don't have a problem with people who God has given the gift of healing to working miracles.  Peter healing the lame man would seem like magic, but I would call it a miracle because the source of the power behind it was God.  However, I do have a problem with witchcraft and magic, which I believe has its power source to be from the devil.

So I'm thinking that perhaps the best way to figure out whether a book with magic in it is good or not is to ask a couple questions:

1 - Are the people in the book who use magic the "good-guys" or "bad-guys"?  If they are the "bad-guys" only, then the book is OK (at least from a magic perspective).

2 - If the people who use magic are the "good-guys", then is there a distinction between the sources of their power?  If the "good-guys" get their power from a good source, and the "bad-guys" get their power from a bad source, then the book is OK (at least from a magic perspective).

These seem to be much more objective questions than: Is there too much magic?  or Is there enough good stuff in the book to overlook the magic?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 18, 2011, 11:24:07 PM
In the Harry Potter Books the alignment of a person does not matter, there are good Witches and Wizards and Dark Witches and Wizards and the talent is something that they are born with and cannot be acquired later in life (though the Dark Witches and Wizards believe that Muggle born children who can use magic can do so because they stole it but this isn't true).

this interview with author JK Rowling is aslo extremely relevant to anyone who believes that Harry Potter is in any way evil (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/jk-rowling-talks-about-christian-imagery.jhtml)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 18, 2011, 11:40:49 PM
Having read Lord of the Rings three times, the Hobbit four times, and the Silmarillion twice, I can confidentially say that, for the most part, the magic in that series falls under the category of " same source, but it's how you use it." The Silmarillion details how Sauron may very well have been a good guy, except he was ultimately corrupted by Morgoth. Likewise, Gandalf and Saruman were roughly of the same order, but Saruman was corrupted by Sauron's power. There are exceptions to the rule, but in general, all the magic in the series comes from a neutral source. Narnia, meanwhile, draws a massive distinction between good and evil, mostly in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. I'm not even going to elaborate here, since odds are if someone hasn't read that series (or at least the book) they're probably not well-equipped to contribute to this debate anyway.

Harry Potter falls roughly between these two origins. What magic actually is or why some people can use it or can't use it is never touched on throughout the series. Wizards and the magical world are simply a fact of life, albeit one hidden from non-magical people. Rowling also never elaborates or mentions any kind of deity, and only vaguely says anything about the afterlife. Now that said, there are stricter lines drawn in the good/evil debate than what is found in Lord of the Rings. For the most part, in that series, whether magic is good or evil is determined entirely by intent. In Harry Potter, there are actual spells, known as the Unforgivable Curses, that are largely unjustifiable to use under any context, and are mostly seen being used exclusively by the bad guys (there are a handful of examples when Harry uses them, and this is largely to demonstrate his imperfection as a human and teenager). There are more extreme examples (dark magic) that are hinted at but never expounded on, which one exception (which I won't delve into, due to spoilers).

Here's the thing, a lot of super conservative Christians are entirely against Star Wars due to the Force. However, I'm willing to be that the vast majority of people here don't have any serious problem with it, at least because of the Force. It's almost identical to the magic found in Harry Potter: some people have the ability to use it, most people don't. Whether it's good or evil depends on how you use it, but it's inherently neutral, and can be used as either. My question then is, if Just Kidding Rowling had not used the term "magic" and instead made up a word and foregone the concept of wands, would anyone really have a problem with it? The magic the Bible is referring to was only possible through the works of Satan (or so I am told - I wouldn't swear to that), and was inherently evil. The magic in Harry Potter was essentially the same as any other ability. If I write a book about how fast I can run, and I call that ability magic, does that mean that that book shouldn't be read, just because I called it something?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 18, 2011, 11:48:39 PM
Spoilers below.
Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 19, 2011, 12:11:41 AM
Please edit your post, I specifically avoided giving out plot details so things wouldn't be spoiled for anyone. Also, there's not much evidence to assume that Sectumsempra is dark magic.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 19, 2011, 12:14:44 AM
Also Spoilers
Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 19, 2011, 12:45:57 AM
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-yRS-t-iZIZ0%2FTmzu_FsUeUI%2FAAAAAAAAJr8%2F1O6gtpG-JD0%2Fs1600%2FUse%252BThe%252BForce%252BHarry%252B-%252BGandalf.jpg&hash=082ccb3b046480e0f39ed66b93f01dca2e5c6ed5)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 19, 2011, 09:44:58 AM
I too have wondered how the "magic" in the world of HP is so different from "the force" in Star Wars.  Those that have the ability are born with it, they go to school (or seek a master teacher) to hone their skills, and they can use those abilities for good or for evil.  In Harry Potter, all of the people that we are rooting for are being taught not only to use magic for good, but are also taught a mandatory class every year called "defense against the dark arts", which shows them the dangers of "the dark side" and how to defend themselves against evil witches and wizards.  Young Jedi are taught in similar fashion.  From time to time Harry and his friends are tempted to do some of the forbidden magic.  But then again so are Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, etc.

And for those LOTR fans, a Palantir and Galadriel's Mirror sure seem to me just like a gypsy's Crystal Ball. 

I'm thinking that a lot of where HP crosses the line for some Christians is that it is IN OUR TIME (or very close to it).  Narnia is a completely different world/land.  Middle Earth (LOTR), if it is supposed to represent our earth at all, is a very ancient earth, and the idea is that in the modern world all the magic is gone.  Star Wars is from "a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away".  But Harry Potter suggest that there are witches and wizards living among us right now, who go to secret schools, and otherwise live out their lives as "normal" people.  So perhaps it is the PERCEIVED idea from some parents that their child might want to be a witch or wizard in this world, because in the movies they are traveling all over 1950s (not sure on the time frame) England?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 25, 2011, 01:28:53 PM
Other than it being modern day, not 1950's, I think you've hit upon something. It would be utterly ridiculous for a kid to think he could really be a Wizard in Narnia or Middle-earth or a Jedi--that is, REALLY think it--but perhaps not so ridiculous to think he could be a Wizard like those in Harry Potter. This makes it more threatening to parents who would rather ban something that requires an extra measure of guidance rather than give the extra measure of guidance.

I still maintain that the original and fullest source of the taboo is the fact that it's taboo. LotR was rejected by the Churchiness establishment when it first came out, and took some time for people to get over the knee-jerk reaction. In the same way, I don't think HP has been around long enough for the general public to get over their initial opposition, and most people that have a problem with it do so because they think they're supposed to have a problem with it.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 25, 2011, 01:38:51 PM
I still maintain that the original and fullest source of the taboo is the fact that it's taboo. LotR was rejected by the Churchiness establishment when it first came out, and took some time for people to get over the knee-jerk reaction. In the same way, I don't think HP has been around long enough for the general public to get over their initial opposition, and most people that have a problem with it do so because they think they're supposed to have a problem with it.

Don't mistake a small group of Christians for the general population. Harry Potter is one of (I believe it's the highest, but I can't find a source of that) the best selling entertainment franchises of all time, and it's only been around for just over a decade. For every person who's opposed to the series, there are 10 people who are rabid fans.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: The Warrior on December 25, 2011, 02:32:15 PM
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 25, 2011, 02:33:54 PM
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?

All of the spells in the books are Latin forms of whatever they are supposed to do, so since they are an actual language that was used for a very long time and was prevalent in the same region that Wicca began it's possible there is some (unintentional) overlap.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: The Warrior on December 25, 2011, 02:37:07 PM
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?

All of the spells in the books are Latin forms of whatever they are supposed to do, so since they are an actual language that was used for a very long time and was prevalent in the same region that Wicca began it's possible there is some (unintentional) overlap.
so thats a ..No?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 25, 2011, 02:45:31 PM
Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 25, 2011, 03:13:37 PM
Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.
This.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: SomeKittens on December 25, 2011, 05:46:17 PM
Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.
Latin = Roman Empire
666 = (possible) Reference to a Roman Emperor
The Roman Emperor was supposed to be a demigod
Therefore:
666 = Latin of a false God
Latin, the language of the Beast, is used in Harry Potter.
Therefore:
Harry Potter = Evil.

QED.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 25, 2011, 07:24:51 PM
There is one spell that is a derivative of a "real" occult spell: Avada Kedavra (derivative of Abrakadabra). It is also the only spell in the book that is used exclusively by evil wizards and is never even attempted by a good one.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 25, 2011, 10:12:28 PM
There is one spell that is a derivative of a "real" occult spell: Avada Kedavra (derivative of Abrakadabra). It is also the only spell in the book that is used exclusively by evil wizards and is never even attempted by a good one.
Umm, Snepe?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 25, 2011, 10:25:33 PM
Aurors were also authorized to use the curse against the death eaters in the same way that police are authorized to use deadly force.

Also *Snape  8)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: katedid on December 26, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?

I actually did a speech for a class involving the Christian response to HP. I looked up a lot of literature on Wiccan's in the process and it would seem that the general population of hardcore practicing "real" witches really  don't like HP. They either laugh off people trying to compare the two or are deeply offended by HP because it makes people not take them seriously.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 29, 2011, 01:03:25 PM
Having read Lord of the Rings three times, the Hobbit four times, and the Silmarillion twice, I can confidentially say that, for the most part, the magic in that series falls under the category of " same source, but it's how you use it."

Narnia, meanwhile, draws a massive distinction between good and evil, mostly in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Harry Potter falls roughly between these two origins...whether magic is good or evil is determined entirely by intent.

...Star Wars ...Force. It's almost identical to the magic found in Harry Potter: some people have the ability to use it, most people don't. Whether it's good or evil depends on how you use it, but it's inherently neutral, and can be used as either.
This is unfortunate for me.  Based on the criteria from my last post, I would be forced to conclude that Narnia is appropriate for my kids, but that LotR, Star Wars, and HP are not.  However, I really like LotR and Star Wars, and have never felt convicted about those series.  So now I have to determine whether I need a different criteria or need to just be consistent despite my personal preferences.

It would be utterly ridiculous for a kid to think he could really be a Wizard in Narnia or Middle-earth or a Jedi--that is, REALLY think it--but perhaps not so ridiculous to think he could be a Wizard like those in Harry Potter.
So if I'm looking for a 3rd criteria to add, it could be something along the lines of whether the magic was presented in a context that would be likely for a child to attempt to emulate.  This does deal with the problem of not wanting to lead others into sin.  But it doesn't really deal with the problem of finding entertainment from a worldview that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.  However that brings up other issues...like whether we should be entertained by the "good guy" getting revenge on the "bad guy" in a movie.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM
The first part of this post (in the spoiler tags) has massive spoilers for the end of the series. Read at your own risk:

Spoiler (hover to show)

I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark. If you decide that Harry Potter is bad, then that is of course your decision. What bothers me is when people decide to not read the series based on ignorance or just wrong information. It's incredibly easy for rumors to get spread about the type of content the series does or does not have, and it's frustrating to hear questions like, "Does Harry Potter use real Satanic words," because that shows that there's a group of people who actually believe that, because someone thought it would be a good idea to make that garbage up. Therefore, it's very gratifying to see you trying to get more information on the series from fellow Christians whom you trust, rather than listen to propaganda (from either side).

Specifically regarding what you said in the last part of your post though, ("it could be something along the lines of whether the magic was presented in a context that would be likely for a child to attempt to emulate.") I think this is a subject that comes down to parental responsibility. Certain age groups shouldn't be reading the series to begin with, due to some violent content and minor language (along with some slightly heavier themes, but nothing inappropriate - just deep), and so if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with. My little sister is 12 and finished reading the series over the summer, and before she was allowed to read them, it was made extremely clear to her that it was fiction. If you're unsure about the series, perhaps you would be willing to read the first book or two? They'll give you a very clear look at whether the content is going to justify your convictions or not, especially in regards to the difference between Star Wars (which I could debate for hours on the morality of the Jedi) and Lord of the Rings (which is more violent, and is, for all intents and purposes, more Satanic, when you consider that he has his own god and group of deities for the series). If doing that seems a bit much, then there's obviously the "pray and read your Bible" path. If you do that and your convictions hold, there's your answer. However, I'd encourage you to do that about the other series brought up in this topic. =)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 01:41:45 PM
Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?  Frankly I never realized this mindset until recently, which is why I ask.  If this is how someone feels, then I can definitely see how someone would be so opposed to "magic", because they think the devil and his demons are performing real magic today.

Not trying to derail this thread, but this might help explain some of our differences.  I always viewed "magic" in the bible that was performed by evil persons to be one of two things:  1) God choosing to give that person that ability (usually temporarily) to fulfill His larger purpose (i.e Pharaoh's magicians or the witch at Endor), or 2) Magic "tricks", which were basically illusion or sleight of hand, used to deceive people for the performer's own purposes (i.e. Simon or Elymas).  Thus the "false signs" and "lying wonders" are called "false and lying" because they are not actual signs and wonders at all - but merely deceiving tricks used to get people to follow them.  And this is why I believe Simon was so impressed with the Holy Spirit, because it was REAL.  Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt that the devil and his demons used evil men's worship of false Gods to their own ends, and that many of those sorcerors believed that they were serving their false gods, but I also believe that their "sorcerors" were master performers who knew how to deceive their audience to make them think that they could do real magic.

But I can't think of an example of the devil or demons giving someone the ability to perform a true miracle.  And because I feel this way about "secular magic", you may understand better why I treat "magic" in fictional literature so casually.

I guess a lot of the reason that I feel this way is because IF the devil can allow his followers to do signs/miracles just as God did with His followers (and some, not me, would say still does), then there really becomes no way to know the difference.  When Paul writes about the "signs of an apostle" being shown among his audience, how do we know those were signs of an apostle and not signs of demons?  Miracles existed for the purpose of confirming the word in an age where people did not know what the truth was.  If a Christian arrived and performed a miracle, then you knew that THEY had the truth.  Think of Elijah's challenge to the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel as an example of this.  Give the devil that same ability and people still have no idea where to turn. 
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 29, 2011, 01:52:10 PM
The following adds to Chronic's post and also contains spoiler.

Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 29, 2011, 02:25:40 PM
I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark.
I'm always striving for consistency, not just in movie watching decisions, but in all aspects of life.  My motto for life is "Make God happy!", and I want my whole life to do that :)

if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with.
This makes me think of that Superbowl commercial with the little kid who tries to use his Darth Vader powers to start his dad's car.  I agree with you that different age kids (and different kids in general) will find it more or less difficult to separate fiction from reality.  The problem though is knowing when a kid thinks they are ready to tell the difference, and when they really are.  Young people are notorious for thinking that stuff doesn't affect them when in reality it still does quite a lot.

Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?
I think that the Devil and Demons powers are quite a bit more limited than God's are of course.  And I think that most "magic" seen today is simply illusions and showmanship used for entertainment of to con people for more nefarious purposes.  However, I also believe that there are some times when supernatural events occur that do not come from God.  The Bible talks about demon-possessed people being super strong, or throwing themselves into fires.  It also talks about Satan doing some pretty supernaturally bad stuff to Job.  I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that these things sometimes still happen.  I have also heard stories about Ouija boards that actually gave answers that would have been impossible to know.  I think that to completely blow off the evil side of the supernatural is a dangerous worldview (of course I also think it is dangerous to live in fear of it or to be overly preoccupied with it).
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: The Warrior on December 29, 2011, 02:56:51 PM
Who Says You can't Have Magic that Comes From God?
Most People Call "God Magic", "Miracles", probably to separate it from more dark "magics", but what does it matter what you call it? it is what it is No matter what you call it.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 03:35:48 PM
I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark.
I'm always striving for consistency, not just in movie watching decisions, but in all aspects of life.  My motto for life is "Make God happy!", and I want my whole life to do that :)

if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with.
This makes me think of that Superbowl commercial with the little kid who tries to use his Darth Vader powers to start his dad's car.  I agree with you that different age kids (and different kids in general) will find it more or less difficult to separate fiction from reality.  The problem though is knowing when a kid thinks they are ready to tell the difference, and when they really are.  Young people are notorious for thinking that stuff doesn't affect them when in reality it still does quite a lot.

Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?
I think that the Devil and Demons powers are quite a bit more limited than God's are of course.  And I think that most "magic" seen today is simply illusions and showmanship used for entertainment of to con people for more nefarious purposes.  However, I also believe that there are some times when supernatural events occur that do not come from God.  The Bible talks about demon-possessed people being super strong, or throwing themselves into fires.  It also talks about Satan doing some pretty supernaturally bad stuff to Job.  I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that these things sometimes still happen.  I have also heard stories about Ouija boards that actually gave answers that would have been impossible to know.  I think that to completely blow off the evil side of the supernatural is a dangerous worldview (of course I also think it is dangerous to live in fear of it or to be overly preoccupied with it).
Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that both in the examples of Job and demon possession, Satan had to have God's "permission" to do those things, or at least be allowed to do it.  In the case of Job, God had greater things planned for him, so He let it happen.  In the case of demon possession, God was also providing His servants with the ability to cast these demons out, in the hopes that it would lead them to Christ.

But I don't consider what happened to Job, nor demon possession, to be "magic" or "sorcery".  Those didn't result in more followers of the devil.  My question is if you believe that God allows the devil and demons to let their servants perform truly supernatural signs/miracles so that they may attract more followers.  Like you mentioned the Ouija boards users.  What possible benefit could come from allowing the supernatural abilities that those mediums claim to actually be true?  And if I went to that medium, and witnessed this, why would I believe the bible instead?  Like I said, signs were to confirm the word/message.  If I witness a sign, then the doctrine of the person who performed it has been confirmed, hasn't it?  (And yes, I've heard all the STORIES about these things too.  Sounds to me like a great way to sell more Ouija boards and increase the business of "psychics" :) )

And I'm sorry to digress.  I won't say anymore about it here.  If someone starts another thread about it one day I may say some more.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 29, 2011, 04:02:15 PM
Most People Call "God Magic", "Miracles", probably to separate it from more dark "magics", but what does it matter what you call it? it is what it is No matter what you call it.
I agree that God does supernatural stuff (miracles) that can look a lot like evil supernatural stuff (magic) or even just illusions (tricks).  I'm just saying that it is important to differentiate between them.  I make pennies appear in my empty hands, but my kids know that I'm just tricking them and can't REALLY make pennies appear out of nowhere.  Similarly I think it's important for books/movies/etc. to make the distinction between "God Magic" and "dark magics" and to NOT glorify the latter.

Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that both in the examples of Job and demon possession, Satan had to have God's "permission" to do those things, or at least be allowed to do it.
Yes, I totally agree that Satan's power is completely dependent and subservient to the will of God.
My question is if you believe that God allows the devil and demons to let their servants perform truly supernatural signs/miracles so that they may attract more followers.
God allows Satan to lie to people all the time to tempt them to sin.  Satan is a supernatural being, so I don't know why he couldn't use that to his advantage.

And if I went to that medium, and witnessed this, why would I believe the bible instead?
Because God does not change.  If the Bible says one thing, and the Ouija board, or the ghost that appears at your local medium's office says something different, then you should believe the Bible.  Maybe the Ouija board was a set up, maybe the "ghost" was a trick.  Or maybe it was real, and was a demon trying to tempt you away from God.  But either way, if it contradicts scripture, then don't listen to it.  And for that matter, don't even put yourself in situations that are going to lead to those situations.  Don't play with Ouija boards, don't go to mediums, don't play with magic 8 balls, etc. :)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 29, 2011, 04:06:04 PM
Harry Potter does make a distinction by labeling bad magic as the Dark Arts and not only doesn't glorify the latter, but teaches a class in Hogwartz on how to defend yourself against the Dark Arts.

Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 29, 2011, 05:12:15 PM
Harry Potter does make a distinction by labeling bad magic as the Dark Arts and not only doesn't glorify the latter, but teaches a class in Hogwartz on how to defend yourself against the Dark Arts.
The problem that I'm running into there though is that apparently the only difference between the "good magic" and the "Dark Arts" in HP is the intent of the spell.  The source is the same.  This is not the distinction that I see in a Christian worldview, where miracles come from God and evil magic comes from Satan.  It is not only a difference of purpose, but also of source.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 29, 2011, 05:41:19 PM
You seem to still be hanging onto the idea that there is a "source" of the Magic in HP. There isn't, it's just an inherent ability in some humans. It's comparable to oratory. Churchill used oratory to keep England together during the airstrikes, and Hitler used oratory to unite Germany behind his Nazi war machine. What is the source of their oratory? Nothing more special than their innate ability to speak combined with education and experience. In the same way, the "magic" in HP has no ultimate source other than inborn ability, education, and experience.

In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 29, 2011, 05:45:48 PM
I just want to note that, in any future debates that may come up on the topic (either here or elsewhere), I'll likely be using that example, Pol.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 10:28:43 AM
In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."
That is really the same thing from my perspective though.  Whether "good magic" and "evil magic" come from the same source, or from no source at all, either way they do NOT come from DIFFERENT sources.  And therefore it is different from the Biblical worldview in my opinion.

As I was praying about this last night, God pointed out that I was making this too complicated.  He said, that it really came down to something simple.  Harry Potter is a witch.  The Bible says to kill witches*  The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch.

* I'm not saying that we should kill all witches today, but rather that it is a clear message of God's feelings on the issue.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 30, 2011, 11:01:42 AM
In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."
That is really the same thing from my perspective though.  Whether "good magic" and "evil magic" come from the same source, or from no source at all, either way they do NOT come from DIFFERENT sources.  And therefore it is different from the Biblical worldview in my opinion.

As I was praying about this last night, God pointed out that I was making this too complicated.  He said, that it really came down to something simple.  Harry Potter is a witch.  The Bible says to kill witches*  The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch.

* I'm not saying that we should kill all witches today, but rather that it is a clear message of God's feelings on the issue.
I tried to tell JK to call the student "Padawans".  She never listens!

Seriously though, it sounds like you've resolved this in your conscience, which is good, but your "revelation" bothers me a little.  I do think it is odd that God told you through prayer that His feelings were very clearly one way, and yet apparently told other Christians that Harry Potter was OK.  It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin.  This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it?  How/why would His answer be different for different people?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 11:34:15 AM
It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin.  This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it?  How/why would His answer be different for different people?
I'm not claiming that it is a sin to watch Harry Potter.  However, based on my conversation with God, I am saying that it would be a sin for ME to watch Harry Potter.  I don't think there's any danger there, as it won't hurt me to miss out on watching that movie.

As for why God would tell other people that it's OK to watch a movie with a witch as a hero, I really can't explain that.  The Bible does seem pretty clear about God's feelings on witchcraft, and God does NOT contradict Himself.  But if my fellow Christians are sure that God has told them it is OK, then I'll leave that up to them and God.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: STAMP on December 30, 2011, 11:39:20 AM
I was in the mood to post something and this was the only "active" thread.  I don't ever get into discussions about Harry Potter, because quite frankly, it's one of the funniest things this side of Tim Tebow.  I've never seen any of the movies, so if it wasn't for the fact that it's an easy name to spell I would probably misspell or mispronounce it.

HP is fiction.  The source of the fiction is a human being.  'Nuff said.

I faintly remember I may have prayed to God about it, too.  I think His answer was, "Can't you find something more productive to do?"  ;)
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: The Warrior on December 30, 2011, 12:15:46 PM
Witch is female. Harry Is a Wizard.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: stefferweffer on December 30, 2011, 12:40:13 PM
It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin.  This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it?  How/why would His answer be different for different people?
I'm not claiming that it is a sin to watch Harry Potter.  However, based on my conversation with God, I am saying that it would be a sin for ME to watch Harry Potter.  I don't think there's any danger there, as it won't hurt me to miss out on watching that movie.

As for why God would tell other people that it's OK to watch a movie with a witch as a hero, I really can't explain that.  The Bible does seem pretty clear about God's feelings on witchcraft, and God does NOT contradict Himself.  But if my fellow Christians are sure that God has told them it is OK, then I'll leave that up to them and God.
That's sound great, but how could you NOT believe it to be sin for every person to watch Harry Potter if God just told you His very strong feelings on the matter?  Consider this for a second.  You could have said something like "I've studied on this and prayed about it, and for me personally it would be sin because of my feelings/beliefs on the matter."  This puts it in the category of Romans 14 and other passages, where it is a matter of not violating your conscience, and I respect that.

But that's NOT what you said.  You said "GOD pointed out that I made this too complicated, HE SAID that it really came down to something simple.  Harry Potter is a witch.  The bible says to kill witches.  The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch."

So now its a question of did God REALLY say that to you, as in you heard the voice of God Himself speaking those words, or was that your perceived answer to your prayer?  Because if God really said what you say that He just told you, then how can it NOT be a sin for another Christian to watch Harry Potter?  Based on what you said, it clearly angers God and is contrary to His will, and contrary to His law (the bible).  SIN IS LAWLESSNESS, isn't it?  I guess I don't understand the back-pedaling now, unless you are just not confident that it was God's voice that you heard.  If God said it is a sin, then TELL US it is a sin.  You do us no favor, and show us no love, if God tells you something is sinful, and you know your brethren are engaged in it, and yet you remain silent.  Imagine Peter getting the vision of the sheet with unclean animals and deciding he shouldn't tell anyone because he doesn't want to cause offense, or if he said "Well God was commanding ME to stop considering the Gentiles to be unclean, but its OK for the rest of you to keep doing so."  You are correct that God cannot contradict Himself.  So if He said what He said to you, I REALLY want to know how that can be interpreted without concluding that watching/reading Harry Potter is a sin.  Unless He didn't say what you might think He said...

As you can see, I'm very passionate about this subject.  And I am not trying to be hurtful.  This "I've had a revelation" and/or "I just heard God say" thing really gets on my nerves, because IT MAKES GOD INCONSISTENT.  Because apparently God/Jesus/Holy Spirit keep telling different believers different things!  I could tell everyone that God appeared to me and said that eating Peanut Butter is a sin.  What does that accomplish?  How would anyone confirm the accuracy of anything so ridiculous?  The only thing that we KNOW God said is found in the bible.  If you had just pointed out bible verses, and said "Here is how I interpret what God said in this passage", I'd have no problem with that, and I'd just state that I interpret those passages differently.  But when we proclaim "God spoke to me and made it very clear how He feels about X", AND God cannot contradict Himself, then you are proclaiming a DIVINE TEACHING that all must follow or be judged accordingly.  I just don't see any other way to interpret what you said, unless you want to ammend/clarify what exactly God told you, and in what manner He did so.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 12:47:53 PM
Witch is female. Harry Is a Wizard.
Actually it is a common misconception that witches have to be female.  I have a friend who was pretty high up in this sort of stuff, and he taught me that actually there were male and female witches, and that warlock (which I previously thought was a male witch) was actually a derogatory term in Wicca.

@steffer
The message that God gave me was for me.  I'm sure that it was Him speaking to me.  But He was telling me that I was making it too complicated for me.  Perhaps it is more complicated for other people.  I do not claim Papal authority of "divine teaching" or whatever.  And no one HAS to believe something just because I say it is true.

If I had to make a guess, I would naturally assume that HP is probably bad for everyone.  However, I have a lot of respect for my Christian brothers and sisters who believe differently, and therefore am not comfortable on this particular issue (which isn't one of salvation) to say that they are all wrong, and I am right.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 01:11:48 PM
I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"

You may all minus-1 this post in to oblivion and I will not feel offended in the slightest.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 30, 2011, 01:13:34 PM
The word witch derives from the Old English nouns wicca /ˈwɪttʃɑ/ (masc.) "sorcerer, wizard" and wicce /ˈwɪttʃe/ (fem.) "sorceress, witch". The word's further origins in Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European are unclear.

Then, further down the page:
The meaning "an adherent of Wicca" (male or female) is due to Gerald Gardner's purported "Witch Cult", and now appears as a separate meaning of the word also in mainstream dictionaries.


From Wikipedia


As far as I know, Harry Potter isn't wiccan, so you've been lost in ambiguity.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 30, 2011, 01:34:06 PM
Underwood, I respect you for handling the issue the way you have, and I believe that that is the best way to go about it. If you decided that Harry Potter is simply not for you, then I'm glad that you at least decided to do some research and pray about it, rather than just looking at everything at face value. The fact you've decided that that revelation is for you only and you don't feel the need to impose it on everyone else? Well that's just a bonus point.

I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"

Alec, I like you as a person. I think you add a fresh (albeit controversial) prospective to the boards, and I think you do a good job debating issues without making your agnosticism a focal point of your arguments, thus preventing the arguments from being a complete waste of time. That said, your comments there are...rude.

[I appreciate the support, but let's avoid making this personal toward either side]
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 02:36:51 PM
I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"
I have several thoughts here (including thinking it is funny that an agnostic is "thanking God"), but I think the message that I most want to communicate here is that one of the wonderful things about Christianity is that we believe in a God who cares about the tiny.  The Bible talks about God taking care of the sparrows and the flowers, and how much MORE He cares about us humans.

God is my best friend, and He ENJOYS spending time with me.  He LOVES it when I ask for His advice on something instead of just doing whatever I want.  Similar to how you would probably like it if your son (or friend if you don't have a son) would ask your advice on something.  I know that you are unsure about all the God-stuff, but I truly wish for you that someday you will be able to have the kind of relationship with the God of the universe that He deeply desires you to have.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 04:23:47 PM
The bottom line here is that you presented with a TON of evidence that there is nothing wrong with a WORK OF PURE FICTION and still chose to ban it. I can see not wanting little kids to read it from what you're saying, I don't agree with it but I can at least see where you are coming from, but the fact that you as an adult don't feel yourself capable of differentiating enough to read it yourself is kind of shocking to me. It also confuses me that you didn't draw the logic that since you are a christian and you believe that we are created by God, that the inborn ability of magic wouldn't come from God without it having to be stated openly. Why are all other inborn talents inherently from God but this one isn't? People are gifted with talents that they are then free to choose how to use be it for good or for evil, why is the inborn magical ability in harry potter any different in your mind?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 05:39:46 PM
The bottom line here is that you presented with a TON of evidence that there is nothing wrong with a WORK OF PURE FICTION and still chose to ban it.
Just to be clear, I'm not banning anything here, unless you are talking about me not allowing my little kids to read these books or see these movies.  This is just a personal decision on my part for me and my family.  I'm not making any official decisions here on the forum.

you as an adult don't feel yourself capable of differentiating enough to read it yourself is kind of shocking to me.
I'm completely capable of differentiating fact from fiction.  That's not my problem.  I just don't choose to entertain myself with a movie that has a witch for a hero.  I could watch it, I just don't choose to.

Why are all other inborn talents inherently from God but this one isn't?
People are naturally born with natural talents.  The whole idea of magic is something that is supernatural.  Therefore, by definition it is not something that people would be naturally born with.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Forever 12 on December 30, 2011, 05:46:00 PM
What is this "Harry Potter" that you speak of?
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Red Wing on December 30, 2011, 05:50:32 PM
What is this "Harry Potter" that you speak of?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_potter

Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: MattsterNinja on December 30, 2011, 11:56:17 PM
My parents wont let me read it still.
Title: Re: Harry Potter
Post by: Chronic Apathy on December 31, 2011, 12:15:49 AM
My parents wont let me read it still.

There's no shame in that. It was heavily frowned upon (though it wasn't expressly forbidden after I turned 16). I read them when I was 18, and with my assurance that they didn't turn me into a devil-worshipping heathen, my mother allowed my sister to read them at 12, and eventually read them herself. It's entirely understandable that some Christian parents prefer not to expose their children to it.
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