I would say that the general feeling on the Harry Potter series here on the forum is divided.
There are some people (stereotypically younger and/or more liberal worldview) who love it. Many read it as kids and love how it encouraged reading among many of their generation. They don't view the magic in the series to be significantly different than that of Narnia or Lord of the Rings, and even point to some Christian allegory within Harry Potter as well.
There are other people (stereotypically older and/or more conservative worldview) who dislike it. Most of them have not read it personally, but have read about it. They don't appreciate that the book makes using magic seem cool, and are concerned that it could lead susceptible readers down a bad path. They differentiate HP from Narnia and LotR because the authors of those series were outspoken Christians (and in Narnia's case it is stated to be a Christian allegory), and also because those are old enough that they are considered classics within the Christian community.
Personally I'm rather torn on the issue. I haven't read them. I do know a lot about them. I am in the older/more conservative crowd on the forum. I don't like magic in a book being presented as heroic. However, I have a hard time making a clear case for why it's different than Gandalf in LotR (which I do like). So for me the jury is still out on HP.
I think the difference in LotR that Tolkien shows magic on so much less of a degree and doesn't have as big of an impact.I'm not a big fan of distinction based on degree. If something is wrong, then a little of it is usually still wrong.
and in Narnia's case it is stated to be a Christian allegoryActually, I believe that is false. Lewis' called the Christian aspects of Narnia a "supposition." Lewis always said that Narnia was not meant to be allegorical.
It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.Many rated R movies have those as well, but the junk you witness in the journey is not comforting in the least.
I'm old and conservative, but I watched all the movies, and my wife and son have read the books (together, which I recommend). I found the movies entertaining. I may be somewhat biased, though, since I have loved LotR and Narnia for years.The irony of HP being in Universal's islands of adventure makes it all the more funny.
I work at Disney, so magic is a way of life. ;)
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.I can, even if I do not agree. The people who have talked to me about the evils of magic being in a game or book is that people who truly do use magic can use the harmlessness of magic to lure them into real magic like marijuana leads into harder drugs. This same issue will apply to D&D, MTG, HP, and any game where magic is not inherently evil.
Friendship is good. Friendship is magic. Therefore, magic is good.
just because someone is abusive doesn't mean you should leave them (beauty and the beast), and it's okay to be different, you just mix with the different people (fox and the hound).woah Woah WOAH!!! Totally not true!! Beauty and the Beast is how love triumphs beauty, and fox and the hound is an anti-racist film.
Quotejust because someone is abusive doesn't mean you should leave them (beauty and the beast), and it's okay to be different, you just mix with the different people (fox and the hound).woah Woah WOAH!!! Totally not true!! Beauty and the Beast is how love triumphs beauty, and fox and the hound is an anti-racist film.
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.Fiction != harmless. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.Fiction != harmless. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)
Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.Fiction != harmless. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)
There are other people (stereotypically older and/or more conservative worldview) who dislike it. Most of them have not read it personally, but have read about it. They don't appreciate that the book makes using magic seem cool, and are concerned that it could lead susceptible readers down a bad path.
entertaining works of fiction. If you leave it at that, you're fine.
if you are mentally mature and strong in your faith I see absolutely no problems with reading a fiction book.
And if you can discern imagination from reality and know when imagination crosses it's boundaries you are ok.I'm not a big fan of the argument that because something is fictional, that makes it OK (or at least for people who know it's fictional). Anime porn is fictional. But just because someone realizes that the girl there is not a real person, doesn't make it right to watch it. And neither does the idea that the movie has a lot of great artwork around the naked girls, or the story is really good. If magic is bad, then it seems wrong for fictional magic to present it as good, and it seems wrong for Christians to find entertainment from that.
Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.My understanding of the books is that the people who are born with the ability to use magic are presented as being superior to the muggles who are not. Am I mistaken about this?
I'm starting to get really annoy with people comparing the use of magic in harry potter to pornography....
1 Corinthians 10:23-33There is your answer on the rightness of it. If it causes people who believe it is evil to do it against their conscience then don't. I had a friend who loved MMOs but thought that a christian should not be a magic user (I myself enjoy playing mages, healers,and warlocks in MMOs), while playing with this person I used rouges and archers in order for the other person to not go against their convictions. The only time this doesn't apply is when their beliefs directly contradict the bible, which you should help them understand if that is the issue.
23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
Anyone who thinks the HP books teach that using magic is cool have not read the books.My understanding of the books is that the people who are born with the ability to use magic are presented as being superior to the muggles who are not. Am I mistaken about this?
I was simply disagreeing with your postulation that being fiction made it so that they couldn't corrupt children.Never in my lifetime will I understand why anyone can think that Harry Potter can somehow corrupt children. It's a completely fictional story, with a lot of good morals to the story.Fiction != harmless. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/us/boy-convicted-of-murder-in-wrestling-death.html)
Are you any less of a Christian having read the Artemis Fowl books? No.
Still not one verse quoted. Interesting.I tend to disagree with Steff on a lot of things, but this really stood out to me. Imagine if Christians went after gossip and hypocrisy the way we go after homosexuality and things like Harry Potter/Golden Compass.
I am curious about something. Is it anything in fiction/entertainment that is supernatural that is perceived by some to be wrong, or just "magic"? I mean if you think about it, no natural thing can do something supernatural without the power of God, so does this make things like comic book heroes blasphemous too? Is anything that involves a sentient race besides human beings somehow anti-God? What about movies with animals that speak in human languages? What about movies where toys are actually alive? All these things are impossible, except for God, and yet they are considered OK for entertainment and good for our imaginations, even though only God could make that happen. But if a character suddenly pulls out a wand, says some latin words, and something supernatural happens, then here comes the flood of criticism. I consider myself a generally "conservative" person, and I have only watched the HP movies, but I never felt like I was being encouraged to go out and start practicing sorcery or witchcraft, and I have never heard of the author encouraging this behavior either. If I am wrong then certainly please cite the sources.
I AM NOT suggesting that anyone watch the HP movies or read the books. It is not my place as a Christian to invite brethren to sin against their conscience, anymore than they can say that it is a sin for every Christian to watch a HP movie. According to Romans 14 and other passages, for the Christian who has doubts already, it WOULD be a sin for them to do so, and they should abstain. I just hope that Christians the world over will so zealously fight the more important theological battles of our time as they have the HP series. The world is not turning into a bunch of witches and wizards. It is turning to Islam, Atheism, immorality, and overall apathy toward God/Christ, His word, and to our fellow man. Let's focus on the big picture.
Just one person's thoughts out of many.
Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 1088 year olds are not adults. Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds. Just sayin'
Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 1088 year olds are not adults. Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds. Just sayin'
I think I see what you are getting at, but it is interesting to note that according to psychologists/people who study brain development, assert that a person's brain is not fully developed until age 24. Interestingly, the part of the brain that uses proper judgement is the last part that develops. Examples of this explains why it is stereotypical for youth/college age to throw caution to the wind without properly considering consequences. I wonder if that is why car rental places wait until 24 before they rent out cars?Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 1088 year olds are not adults. Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds. Just sayin'
I think I see what you are getting at, but it is interesting to note that according to psychologists/people who study brain development, assert that a person's brain is not fully developed until age 24. Interestingly, the part of the brain that uses proper judgement is the last part that develops. Examples of this explains why it is stereotypical for youth/college age to throw caution to the wind without properly considering consequences. I wonder if that is why car rental places wait until 24 before they rent out cars?Many 18-30 year olds aren't adults either. Just sayin'.Bottom line: everyone that is a adult from 8 to 1088 year olds are not adults. Neither are 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 year olds. Just sayin'
I agree with Prof U on pretty much everything he has said in this thread.Wow, I had no idea that refraining from giving you a hard time after the UK-UNC game would bring such benefits :)
LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.
Does Harry Potter also point to separate sources for the magic of Harry and Vordemort, or do they just use the same power for different purposes?
LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.
I've tried to read the Silmarillion 3 times. I failed.Their powers come from different sources. Have you ever read the Silmarillion? The evil magic in LotR is Morgoth (and later, Sauron) attempting to re-create the good magic that the good guys - elves, istari, Noldor, etc. - do with the power that is given them. Palantiri are an example of this. They were made by the Noldor, but one was captured by Sauron and he used it to control the others.LotR similarly distinguishes the magic of Sauron (evil) and Gandalf (good).As little magic that is actually in LotR, both could technically be used by either side. Gandalf does get special attention as he is the wielder of the Flame of Anor, but otherwise it's your typical force push/pull, fireballs (I don't actually remember if they're in the books, but in the movie they both use them), foresight (Aragorn as well as Saruman and Denathor use the palantir), etc.
I've tried to read the Silmarillion 3 times. I failed.
you wouldn't know this if not for that book
(evil - perhaps like magic in our world)
If Rowling created a book explaining the "behind the scenes" of magic and had them have different sources, how does it change anything?I think it might change something for me. I don't have a problem with people who God has given the gift of healing to working miracles. Peter healing the lame man would seem like magic, but I would call it a miracle because the source of the power behind it was God. However, I do have a problem with witchcraft and magic, which I believe has its power source to be from the devil.
I still maintain that the original and fullest source of the taboo is the fact that it's taboo. LotR was rejected by the Churchiness establishment when it first came out, and took some time for people to get over the knee-jerk reaction. In the same way, I don't think HP has been around long enough for the general public to get over their initial opposition, and most people that have a problem with it do so because they think they're supposed to have a problem with it.
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?
so thats a ..No?I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?
All of the spells in the books are Latin forms of whatever they are supposed to do, so since they are an actual language that was used for a very long time and was prevalent in the same region that Wicca began it's possible there is some (unintentional) overlap.
Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.This.
Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.Latin = Roman Empire
There is one spell that is a derivative of a "real" occult spell: Avada Kedavra (derivative of Abrakadabra). It is also the only spell in the book that is used exclusively by evil wizards and is never even attempted by a good one.Umm, Snepe?
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?
Having read Lord of the Rings three times, the Hobbit four times, and the Silmarillion twice, I can confidentially say that, for the most part, the magic in that series falls under the category of " same source, but it's how you use it."This is unfortunate for me. Based on the criteria from my last post, I would be forced to conclude that Narnia is appropriate for my kids, but that LotR, Star Wars, and HP are not. However, I really like LotR and Star Wars, and have never felt convicted about those series. So now I have to determine whether I need a different criteria or need to just be consistent despite my personal preferences.
Narnia, meanwhile, draws a massive distinction between good and evil, mostly in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
Harry Potter falls roughly between these two origins...whether magic is good or evil is determined entirely by intent.
...Star Wars ...Force. It's almost identical to the magic found in Harry Potter: some people have the ability to use it, most people don't. Whether it's good or evil depends on how you use it, but it's inherently neutral, and can be used as either.
It would be utterly ridiculous for a kid to think he could really be a Wizard in Narnia or Middle-earth or a Jedi--that is, REALLY think it--but perhaps not so ridiculous to think he could be a Wizard like those in Harry Potter.So if I'm looking for a 3rd criteria to add, it could be something along the lines of whether the magic was presented in a context that would be likely for a child to attempt to emulate. This does deal with the problem of not wanting to lead others into sin. But it doesn't really deal with the problem of finding entertainment from a worldview that is contrary to what the Bible teaches. However that brings up other issues...like whether we should be entertained by the "good guy" getting revenge on the "bad guy" in a movie.
I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark.I'm always striving for consistency, not just in movie watching decisions, but in all aspects of life. My motto for life is "Make God happy!", and I want my whole life to do that :)
if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with.This makes me think of that Superbowl commercial with the little kid who tries to use his Darth Vader powers to start his dad's car. I agree with you that different age kids (and different kids in general) will find it more or less difficult to separate fiction from reality. The problem though is knowing when a kid thinks they are ready to tell the difference, and when they really are. Young people are notorious for thinking that stuff doesn't affect them when in reality it still does quite a lot.
Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?I think that the Devil and Demons powers are quite a bit more limited than God's are of course. And I think that most "magic" seen today is simply illusions and showmanship used for entertainment of to con people for more nefarious purposes. However, I also believe that there are some times when supernatural events occur that do not come from God. The Bible talks about demon-possessed people being super strong, or throwing themselves into fires. It also talks about Satan doing some pretty supernaturally bad stuff to Job. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that these things sometimes still happen. I have also heard stories about Ouija boards that actually gave answers that would have been impossible to know. I think that to completely blow off the evil side of the supernatural is a dangerous worldview (of course I also think it is dangerous to live in fear of it or to be overly preoccupied with it).
Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that both in the examples of Job and demon possession, Satan had to have God's "permission" to do those things, or at least be allowed to do it. In the case of Job, God had greater things planned for him, so He let it happen. In the case of demon possession, God was also providing His servants with the ability to cast these demons out, in the hopes that it would lead them to Christ.I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark.I'm always striving for consistency, not just in movie watching decisions, but in all aspects of life. My motto for life is "Make God happy!", and I want my whole life to do that :)if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with.This makes me think of that Superbowl commercial with the little kid who tries to use his Darth Vader powers to start his dad's car. I agree with you that different age kids (and different kids in general) will find it more or less difficult to separate fiction from reality. The problem though is knowing when a kid thinks they are ready to tell the difference, and when they really are. Young people are notorious for thinking that stuff doesn't affect them when in reality it still does quite a lot.Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?I think that the Devil and Demons powers are quite a bit more limited than God's are of course. And I think that most "magic" seen today is simply illusions and showmanship used for entertainment of to con people for more nefarious purposes. However, I also believe that there are some times when supernatural events occur that do not come from God. The Bible talks about demon-possessed people being super strong, or throwing themselves into fires. It also talks about Satan doing some pretty supernaturally bad stuff to Job. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that these things sometimes still happen. I have also heard stories about Ouija boards that actually gave answers that would have been impossible to know. I think that to completely blow off the evil side of the supernatural is a dangerous worldview (of course I also think it is dangerous to live in fear of it or to be overly preoccupied with it).
Most People Call "God Magic", "Miracles", probably to separate it from more dark "magics", but what does it matter what you call it? it is what it is No matter what you call it.I agree that God does supernatural stuff (miracles) that can look a lot like evil supernatural stuff (magic) or even just illusions (tricks). I'm just saying that it is important to differentiate between them. I make pennies appear in my empty hands, but my kids know that I'm just tricking them and can't REALLY make pennies appear out of nowhere. Similarly I think it's important for books/movies/etc. to make the distinction between "God Magic" and "dark magics" and to NOT glorify the latter.
Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that both in the examples of Job and demon possession, Satan had to have God's "permission" to do those things, or at least be allowed to do it.Yes, I totally agree that Satan's power is completely dependent and subservient to the will of God.
My question is if you believe that God allows the devil and demons to let their servants perform truly supernatural signs/miracles so that they may attract more followers.God allows Satan to lie to people all the time to tempt them to sin. Satan is a supernatural being, so I don't know why he couldn't use that to his advantage.
And if I went to that medium, and witnessed this, why would I believe the bible instead?Because God does not change. If the Bible says one thing, and the Ouija board, or the ghost that appears at your local medium's office says something different, then you should believe the Bible. Maybe the Ouija board was a set up, maybe the "ghost" was a trick. Or maybe it was real, and was a demon trying to tempt you away from God. But either way, if it contradicts scripture, then don't listen to it. And for that matter, don't even put yourself in situations that are going to lead to those situations. Don't play with Ouija boards, don't go to mediums, don't play with magic 8 balls, etc. :)
Harry Potter does make a distinction by labeling bad magic as the Dark Arts and not only doesn't glorify the latter, but teaches a class in Hogwartz on how to defend yourself against the Dark Arts.The problem that I'm running into there though is that apparently the only difference between the "good magic" and the "Dark Arts" in HP is the intent of the spell. The source is the same. This is not the distinction that I see in a Christian worldview, where miracles come from God and evil magic comes from Satan. It is not only a difference of purpose, but also of source.
In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."That is really the same thing from my perspective though. Whether "good magic" and "evil magic" come from the same source, or from no source at all, either way they do NOT come from DIFFERENT sources. And therefore it is different from the Biblical worldview in my opinion.
I tried to tell JK to call the student "Padawans". She never listens!In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."That is really the same thing from my perspective though. Whether "good magic" and "evil magic" come from the same source, or from no source at all, either way they do NOT come from DIFFERENT sources. And therefore it is different from the Biblical worldview in my opinion.
As I was praying about this last night, God pointed out that I was making this too complicated. He said, that it really came down to something simple. Harry Potter is a witch. The Bible says to kill witches* The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch.
* I'm not saying that we should kill all witches today, but rather that it is a clear message of God's feelings on the issue.
It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin. This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it? How/why would His answer be different for different people?I'm not claiming that it is a sin to watch Harry Potter. However, based on my conversation with God, I am saying that it would be a sin for ME to watch Harry Potter. I don't think there's any danger there, as it won't hurt me to miss out on watching that movie.
That's sound great, but how could you NOT believe it to be sin for every person to watch Harry Potter if God just told you His very strong feelings on the matter? Consider this for a second. You could have said something like "I've studied on this and prayed about it, and for me personally it would be sin because of my feelings/beliefs on the matter." This puts it in the category of Romans 14 and other passages, where it is a matter of not violating your conscience, and I respect that.It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin. This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it? How/why would His answer be different for different people?I'm not claiming that it is a sin to watch Harry Potter. However, based on my conversation with God, I am saying that it would be a sin for ME to watch Harry Potter. I don't think there's any danger there, as it won't hurt me to miss out on watching that movie.
As for why God would tell other people that it's OK to watch a movie with a witch as a hero, I really can't explain that. The Bible does seem pretty clear about God's feelings on witchcraft, and God does NOT contradict Himself. But if my fellow Christians are sure that God has told them it is OK, then I'll leave that up to them and God.
Witch is female. Harry Is a Wizard.Actually it is a common misconception that witches have to be female. I have a friend who was pretty high up in this sort of stuff, and he taught me that actually there were male and female witches, and that warlock (which I previously thought was a male witch) was actually a derogatory term in Wicca.
I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"
I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"I have several thoughts here (including thinking it is funny that an agnostic is "thanking God"), but I think the message that I most want to communicate here is that one of the wonderful things about Christianity is that we believe in a God who cares about the tiny. The Bible talks about God taking care of the sparrows and the flowers, and how much MORE He cares about us humans.
The bottom line here is that you presented with a TON of evidence that there is nothing wrong with a WORK OF PURE FICTION and still chose to ban it.Just to be clear, I'm not banning anything here, unless you are talking about me not allowing my little kids to read these books or see these movies. This is just a personal decision on my part for me and my family. I'm not making any official decisions here on the forum.
you as an adult don't feel yourself capable of differentiating enough to read it yourself is kind of shocking to me.I'm completely capable of differentiating fact from fiction. That's not my problem. I just don't choose to entertain myself with a movie that has a witch for a hero. I could watch it, I just don't choose to.
Why are all other inborn talents inherently from God but this one isn't?People are naturally born with natural talents. The whole idea of magic is something that is supernatural. Therefore, by definition it is not something that people would be naturally born with.
What is this "Harry Potter" that you speak of?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_potter
My parents wont let me read it still.