Author Topic: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.  (Read 12009 times)

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« on: December 01, 2009, 01:10:08 AM »
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This is the deck that I came up with to abuse both ANB and Gates of Hell, I revealed it to certain key playtesters, and as a result, recently had ANB re-errataed.
James Roepke gets credit for coming up with the base combo, which I then improved and built into the following.
Gabe Isbell gets credit for building the T1 deck
Rob Anderson gets credit for creating the game of Redemption and allowing me to break it ;)
The Playtesters get credit for putting me back in my place ;)

Cards in deck: 100
Lost Souls: 14
   Lost Soul (Color Guard) X 2
   Lost Soul (deck discard) X 2
   Lost Soul (Female Only) X 2
   Lost Soul (Protector) X 2
   Lost Soul (shuffler) X 2
   Lost Soul (Site Discard) X 2
   Lost Soul (Wanderer) X 2

Lamb Dominants: 4
   Angel of the Lord
   Grapes of Wrath
   Guardian Of Your Souls
   Son of God

Grim Reaper Dominants: 4
   Burial
   Christian Martyr
   Destruction of Nehushtan
   Falling Away

Fortresses: 3
   The Gates of Hell X 3

Green Sites: 10
   Halah X 5
   Prison of Asa X 5
   

Crimson Curse Cards: 3
   Captured Ark (Crimson) X 3

Gold Covenant Cards: 3
   I am Healing X 3

Multi-Color Heroes: 2
   Elishana the Priest (Teal) X 2

Red Heroes: 5
   Asahel X 2
   King Jehoshaphat X 3

Green Heroes: 2
   King Asa X 2

Purple Heroes: 3
   Ethiopian Treasurer X 2

Multi-Color Hero Enhancements: 1
   Brass Serpent

Red Hero Enhancements: 10
   A Soldier's Prayer X 5
   Warrior's Spear X 5

Green Hero Enhancements: 1
   A New Beginning

Purple Hero Enhancements: 7
   Authority of Christ X 2
   Unified Kingdom X 5

Pale Green Evil Characters: 5
   King Jehoiakin
   Messenger of Satan X 2
   Prince of this World
   User of Curious Arts

Black Evil Characters: 1
   The Twelve-Fingered Giant

Gray Evil Characters: 6
   King Pekahiah
   Sabbath Breaker X 5
Brown Evil Characters: 1
   Gomer

Pale Green Evil Enhancements: 7
   Confusion X 2
   Divination X 5
Gray Evil Enhancements: 2
   False Peace X 2

Orange Evil Characters:  4
   Wandering Spirit X 2
   King of Tyrus
   Spirit of Temptation

Multi-Color Evil Characters :2
   Astrologers
   Damsel with Spirit of Divination



So – Here is the basic premise of the combo – Full complements go to Hanno102 who helped me with the implementation of the combo.

After sitting and searching, drawing, and using cards like Divination to manipulate the deck – You have the following cards in your hand -

Brass Serpent, or I am Healing
Gates of Hell
Warrior's Spear X 2
Green Site X 2
Unified Kingdom

You cannot have any extra cards in your hand – If this means discarding Dominants, do so.

Play Gates down and use it to discard your entire deck, this pulls out your Orange Demons and your Lost Souls – Then Play either I am Healing or Brass Serpent to pull out the 5 Heroes in the deck -

Elishana
ET
King Asa (Green)
Asahel (TexP)
King Jehoshapat (Red)

Now the fun part – move the Deck discarding lost soul into one of your two green sites, move the Color Guard into the other – (Alternatively, you can hold just one Warriors spear and play an additional green site with another Deck discarder, which is actually what I liked to do the most)

Begin a rescue attempt with Ethiopian Treasurer, play Unified Kingdom.
Elishana enters battle and places the newly Errataed ANB onto King Asa.
King Jehoshapat enters battle and Warriors spear discards the top card of opponents deck.
Asahel enters battle, at this point you declare targeting of UK done, Asahel's Spear activates.
King Asa gets banded into battle by Asahel, and then ANB activates off of him.

The following gets shuffled – Everything in battle less ANB, Gates, 2 Green sites. (Thorns LS keeps the LS' out, and Color Guard keeps all your Demons down)

If you performed the Combo correctly then only 11 cards should be left in your deck – Thus because you draw 11 on your new turn with ANB you can wash, rinse and repeat until your opponent has no cards left in his deck. At this point you switch to the Hand discard lost soul until the only cards that your opponent has left are lost souls for you to jauntily rescue. Additionally, after the combo is rolling it has very, very few counters, and by very few I mean 3 or 4.

I called the deck 'The Judges Bane' because of this funny reason – If I go First in the game then the game doesn't end until my opponent takes his last turn – Meaning that I can go as far past time limit as need be to finish what I am doing.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:25:21 PM by Red Dragon Thorn »
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 01:13:17 AM »
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Full Credit to Gabe Isbell for the following T1 implementation of the deck:

50 cards

7 Doms
Angel of the Lord
Grapes of Wrath
Son of God
Burial
Christian Martyr
Destruction of Nehushtan
Falling Away
3 Art/Cov/Curse
The Bronze Laver
I am Healing
Captured Ark
1 Fort
The Gates of Hell
4 Sites
Desolate City
Halah
Lycaonia
Prison of Asa
8 Souls
Lost Soul (color guard)
Lost Soul (deck discard)
Lost Soul (hopper)
Lost Soul (shuffler)
Lost Soul (site discard)
Lost Soul (thorns)
Lost Soul (wanderer)
Lost Souls (3-line)
5 Heroes
King Asa
Ethiopian Treasurer
King Jehoshaphat
Asahel
Elishana the Priest
8 Enhancements
Brass Serpent
Feast of Trumpets
Pentecost
A New Beginning
Great Faith
Unified Kingdom
Warrior's Spear
A Soldier’s Prayer
10 ECs
Damsel with Spirit of Divination
Astrologers
Sabbath Breaker
King of Tyrus
Prince of this World
Fallen Angel
Deceiving Spirit
Wandering Spirit
Spirit of Temptation
Users of Curious Arts
4 EEs
False Peace
Worshipping Demons
Divination
Confusion

Gabe can correct me if I'm wrong, but the deck went 8-2 under his guidance with the only full loss coming to me, and I knew it was coming.

The T1 Version is inherrently more fragile than the Type 2 above, because you can only have one copy of each lost soul, and if your opponent manages to get through 3 times before you can hit the combo, you're dead in the water.




 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:39:23 AM by Red Dragon Thorn »
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 01:26:04 AM »
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I knew that the Playtesters were leaning towards an errata that would remove ANB from the game, I actually had a plan for this.

The combo is equally doable with Book of the Law and Jehoram in place of Jehosaphat and Elishana, Book of the Law would have prevented ANB from being removed so that I could still recur it.

Huge kudos to the entire playtesting team for catching that and wording the Errata in such a way that it is a Cost ability instead of an additional ability.

RDT
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:40:02 AM by Red Dragon Thorn »
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browarod

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 09:12:53 AM »
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I totally played against this deck (or some version of it) when Gabe used it and didn't realize this was what you guys were talking about. *facepalm*

The recursion was awful. Such a sinister scheme :P

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 09:44:22 AM »
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I also played against a version of this deck, and see the potential that it had to break the game.  Congrats to all the people who came up with the idea.  It was quite creative and elaborate.

Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 11:01:12 AM »
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I also played against this deck and I am proud to actually have circumvented it, barely albeit.

It is too bad that this doesn't work anymore.  Props to those who made it; it was a great work.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 11:25:31 AM by Cameron the Conqueror »

Offline STAMP

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 11:23:36 AM »
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Seriously, kudos around.   :thumbup:

But RDT, Hanno and Gabe, you just destroyed even the slightest chance that I would ever get back in the game by emasculating ANB even more.   :-\


And I don't mean that in a Favre-ish way.   ;)
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 12:45:41 PM »
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So you discard their deck and keep restarting the game?

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 12:52:46 PM »
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Precisely, I simply continue to reset the deck until they have no cards left with which to play - Usually takes about 30 itterations or so.
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Offline Bryon

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 12:58:24 PM »
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In retrospect, A New Beginning should have been multi-color and removed itself from the game when it was printed.

Once per game is plenty.  Even God prefers not to do it more than once.  ;)

Offline Hanno102

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 01:22:30 PM »
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I don't post much, but I did figure that it would be slightly appropriate to post here.

Yes, I did come up with that combo, and yes, I did technically build the first deck around the combo.  At which point, I decided that there was no way I ever wanted to play against the combo or even play it myself.  So, I told John and let him play around with it for a while (and he came up with a somewhat viable deck at the same time, which I hadn't done).  Also, I arranged for us to play the deck against Chris Bany - who pretty much agreed with my assessment and brought it to the playtesting community. 

Kudos to John for playing his version enough to finally get the errata I was looking for and to Gabe for coming up with a T1 version, which I didn't really think was possible.

Oh, and incidentally, this combo resulted from experimentation with an entirely different combo which is still doable, and may even see play later >:).



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Offline STAMP

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 02:11:24 PM »
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In retrospect, A New Beginning should have been multi-color and removed itself from the game when it was printed.

Once per game is plenty.  Even God prefers not to do it more than once.  ;)

Actually twice, but that's probably just the petulance talking.

 :laugh:
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Offline Isildur

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 07:31:44 PM »
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I also played against a version of this deck, and see the potential that it had to break the game.  Congrats to all the people who came up with the idea.  It was quite creative and elaborate.
You know a deck is going to break the game when it uses Book of the Law as part of a combo ::)
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 07:33:16 PM »
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It doesn't ;) It could though.
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 10:17:39 PM »
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Awww :( Darn, Anb abuse lost a bit of its fun, Oh wells.
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 10:31:40 PM »
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So ANB now says once per game? That's lame. Just because of this one card?

It's starting to seem to me that if you get an amazing combo, the game will change to ruin your combo. At least win nationals before this deck is deemed "broken." It CAN be beat. I mean, 1 ANB? Can I get a Gabriel? Also, the opponent will always have 8 cards in his hand; this CAN be enough to win. A Child is Born comes to mind. What if they already have chariot in their art pile? Household idols so they can't band? Heck, isn't this why cards like Darius' Decree were made? You have that and this deck is done.

I must say I am EXTREMELY disappointed that one card would be errata'ed because of one deck that hasn't even won a State. As stated, The T1 version only went 8-2, and that's in the hands of a two-time national champion. There are not many people who could possibly win more games than that. And yet we get the errata. This is one GIANT step toward me quitting Redemption.

Oh... cool you thought of an awesome combo? Well, no you didn't cause we just changed the card. I mean... seriously? :(
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 10:39:27 PM »
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No, it says remove from the game to...
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 10:46:01 PM »
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the ruling did seem pretty haphazard. there seems to be many commonly used answers to the deck, and combo decks in and of themselves are pretty much hit or miss if a piece is rendered useless. i personally dont see the type 1 version of the deck going far, and the type 2 version is limited by the new number-of-cards-in-hand rule. i agree, the card/deck should have seen its motions before a ruling was made. i dont think it was that broken at all.
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Offline Sean

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 10:55:17 PM »
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The hand limit doesn't do anything to the combo.

Quote
It's starting to seem to me that if you get an amazing combo, the game will change to ruin your combo. At least win nationals before this deck is deemed "broken." It CAN be beat. I mean, 1 ANB? Can I get a Gabriel? Also, the opponent will always have 8 cards in his hand; this CAN be enough to win. A Child is Born comes to mind. What if they already have chariot in their art pile? Household idols so they can't band? Heck, isn't this why cards like Darius' Decree were made? You have that and this deck is done.
It appears as though you didn't take a close enough look.  ANB would be recurred from the discard pile, Gabriel is useless.  The hand gets taken out by the Lost Soul.  The opponent doesn't have a chance to play ACiB, not that it matters because their entire deck would be discarded by the time the combo is finished.  Captured Ark takes care of all Artifact problems.

I played RDT with the type two version and he had the combo up and running in about ~7 turns.  The only reason I would have been able to possibly win was because I had the Punisher Lost Soul in my deck, although I didn't feel like playing it out because of how annoying it is to constantly shuffle all the cards and restart.  The only other thing that stops this is Christian Martyr played at the right time.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 11:00:30 PM by Sean »
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 10:59:04 PM »
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To KChief - The new number-of-cards-in-hand rule? My hand never goes above 16 with this deck, additionally, once I get going you have exactly 3 counters - Christian Marytr, Mayhem and the Punisher LS

To Lightningninja - Gabriel to discard my ANB - Be my guest. I want it in the discard pile, did you not read the first page, where I clearly state that I pull it back from there with Elishana? Additionally, because I'm shuffling you don't get that Art Pile anymore, and again as I stated in the very first post I also have the two hand discards so you don't even get a hand. I will admit DD and Hezzy's Ring are problems, but thats why I'm packing Captured Arks. The Type 2 version lost one game after its final tweaks - And the Opponent knew it was coming. It won a whole lot more than that in pickup games.

The ANB errata has been needed for some time, not because of this deck, but because it frees up the ability of the playtesters to design new cards without having to worry about ANB abuse. And yes, we do change the rules, why? Because decks like this remove the opponent from the game completely, which Rob and the other leaders have been against since Chris Bany's Destroyer.
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Offline Sean

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 11:01:30 PM »
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Quote
Mayhem
I didn't count that as it only gives a one or two turn reprieve.  
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 11:02:57 PM »
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Yeah, but in that time they can play DD which I would then have no answer for, that happened with an earlier version which was slower and included a real D in case something went awry.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 11:12:12 PM »
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To KChief - The new number-of-cards-in-hand rule? My hand never goes above 16 with this deck, additionally, once I get going you have exactly 3 counters - Christian Marytr, Mayhem and the Punisher LS

i was referring to its impact before you got the combo running. if you have no way to mass draw (as seen in sitc the previous season), then you still have to wait precious turns for the pieces to get to you. precious turns for the opponent to get answers to you. again, i still think the deck is far from 'broken'.
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2009, 12:10:25 AM »
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Wait... what's the full text of the errata'd version? I can't find it anywhere.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The Judges Bane - AKA Why they Errataed ANB again.
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 12:12:35 AM »
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Quote
Rob wrote:


Quote
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards..."

I am fine with the above proposed errata.
The playtesters are in agreement.

It's official. 

I think that makes this the complete ability:
"If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks.  All players draw 8.  Begin a new turn."
 
 
 

From Bryon on the first page of the thread announcing the Errata.
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