Author Topic: Crafting a new meta defense  (Read 2110 times)

Offline jbeers285

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Crafting a new meta defense
« on: June 12, 2018, 08:22:42 PM »
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I strongly believe the power balance in the game has shifted to defense. If players played the best defenses at an optimal level all the time tournaments would be riddled with timeouts and lock outs.

With that in mind I believe cutting defense and playing a larger offense is the only way to compensate for the overwhelming defense.

That means moving back towards a 10-12 card defense
Here is what I believe can work at the moment.

I'd love to see others opinions on this defense and on other defensive options that fit into 10-12 cards

EC's 7
Leviathan
Behemoth
Judas Iscariot
The Deceiver
Nebuchadnezzar
Abaddon
Fire Foxes

EE's 4
Scattered
Christian Suing Another
Wages of Sin
Dream

Forts 1
Gates of Hell

Reserve 7
Foreign Wives
Uzzah
Red Dragon
Fires of Abaddon
Fires from Heaven
Foolish Advice
Blasphemies


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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 09:18:06 PM »
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A second option I could see gaining traction again is something like his obviously needs a little updating

EC 7
Sabbath Breaker
Emperor Vitellius
Proud Pharisee
Entrapping Pharisees
Sanhedrin
Messenger of Satan
The Deceiver


EE's 5
Balaam's Disobedience
Seize Him!
Tenates kill the Son
Suicidal Swine Stampede
Balaam's Teaching
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kariusvega

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 09:38:26 PM »
+1
Don't take this the wrong way cause e thugs but

You basically said you think the game shifted to defense heavy which means offense is more important... and that's the same meta we were just in haha

Just run chumps.. Basically Coney defense with swaps

1   Uzzah
1   Sabbath Breaker
1   Fire Foxes
1   Foreign Wives
1   Nebuchadnezzar (TxP)
1   The Serpent (Promo)
1   The Deceiver (RoJ)

1   The Wages of Sin (FoM)
1   Belshazzar's Banquet
1   Scattered

Reserve:   
1   Gideon's Ephod (FoM)
1   Shrine to Artemis
1   Outsiders (Brown/Crimson) (RoJ)
1   Outsiders (Black/Gold) (RoJ)
1   High Priest Ananias (RoJ)
1   Emperor Vitellius

As seen in "Rapture & Release" http://www.cactusforums.com/complete-decks/t1-rapture-release-(complete-deck)/

You can always swap out one for another d9 Damsel

I mean is there really anything better or more consistent than the cheapest option? It seems the theory is Babel will counter these cards as if all of their contenders weren't fitting enough (they were simply not played).. Yet Babel costs 10 times as much as the cards that weren't played and doesn't begin in play. Speed = Power in Redemption.

The only cost in this game is opportunity.

The chump defense is still top dog.. Coney was the Scapegoat for the chumps ;) Obviously the snakes will find their way in to what you're playing to slither accordingly, but they do not trump consistency at high level tournaments.. You're playing for differential. Take your loss and walk, if you take one.

The reason chumps are by far the best is because they enable the exact thing that the Deck was, Martin's Deck, even Zach's deck, BoM in many ways, and Coney.. The cheapest and smallest options to enable an overwhelming offense. If and when you can rescue lost souls every turn and if and when you have drawn all of your cards you can win in the shortest amount of turns, which is how Coney could actually win turn 1 as it was at Nationals.. Pretty sure no one knew this.

I'd like to see a successful alternative defense but I'm not really sure they can hold up with the amount of ludicrous evil removal added to an already ec removal heavy meta.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 09:43:56 PM »
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So what you're saying is that Paul promo is the best Hero in the game?  ;)
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kariusvega

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 09:44:17 PM »
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So what you're saying is that Paul promo is the best Hero in the game?  ;)

YesssSsss  :P

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 09:53:35 PM »
+1
Honestly nothing else hits as fast or as hard or as consistent as coney.
I don't find raw chump defenses to be an easy plug and play.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:00:38 PM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 10:04:25 PM »
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Honestly nothing else hits as fast or as hard or as consistent as coney.
I don't find raw chump defenses to be an easy plug and play.
I agree that the Coney defense is usually inadequate but I think it could work with a few additional battle winners.
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kariusvega

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 10:06:38 PM »
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Honestly nothing else hits as fast or as hard or as consistent as coney.
I don't find raw chump defenses to be an easy plug and play.
I agree that the Coney defense is usually inadequate but I think it could work with a few additional battle winners.

You just have to play it situationally and use your doms wisely. It is hands down still the best defense in the game.. and by best I mean most consistent relatively speaking while enabling your offense objectively.

It's as easy as.. Oh that didn't work? Try Rehoboam.. Oh that didn't work, swap R&D for the Strife..

The core is solid.

Offline Red Wing

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 10:07:33 PM »
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Honestly nothing else hits as fast or as hard or as consistent as coney.
I don't find raw chump defenses to be an easy plug and play.
I agree that the Coney defense is usually inadequate but I think it could work with a few additional battle winners.

You just have to play it situationally and use your doms wisely. It is hands down still the best defense in the game.. and by best I mean most consistent relatively speaking while enabling your offense objectively.

It's as easy as.. Oh that didn't work? Try Rehoboam.. Oh that didn't work, swap R&D for the Strife..

The core is solid.
Also needs King Belshazzar.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 10:17:33 PM »
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I don't find raw chump defenses to be an easy plug and play.

^ this
Plus they are kind of boring. I like the first defense you posted, although i personally am a fan of a more brown based deck. It's not as good, but it's more fun imo. Especially Judean Royalty. That defense is so fun, and super powerful as well! It splashes very well with crimson and/or orange as well, making it my favorite defense to play. Again, It's not the most powerful and probably won't be meta, but it combines chump blocking and fun combos into a strong defense that is fairly consistent, if a bit slow. I think a couple cards in the new set help with the speed aspect a bit though, and I'm excited to see how an updated version of this defense will do.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 10:23:45 PM »
+1
How about this...

Philistine Outpost

Philistine Armorbearer
Goliath
Lahmi
Ahiman Son of Anak
Fire Foxes
Outsiders (Black)
The Deceiver

Wages of Sin
Foolish Advice
Devourer
Seized by Rioters

Reserve
Sheshai Son of Anak
Ahiman Son of Anak
High Priest Annanias
Uzzah

Black is so stacked right especially with enhancements. Idol Worship, Darkness, Abandonment, Stone of Thebez... lots of ways to go. Still probably on the slow side especially compared to Crimson and Gray.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:28:06 PM by Red Wing »
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 10:31:09 PM »
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Black Every Brigade is so stacked right especially with enhancements.

FTFY
I don't think there will be a specific meta defense this year. there's just too much good stuff, and too much overlap between different themes. Like I said in another post: Pick a brigade; that's the meta now.

Honestly the best I think we can do is make a core of 3-5 cards and just add that into whatever theme you want to play. I'd say pretty much every defense should have:

The deciever
Fire Foxes
Scattered (most of the time)

Reserve:
Foreign Wives
Uzzah
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:50:41 PM by Ironisaac »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 11:17:34 PM »
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I find most of my defenses include The Deceiver, Scattered and Fire Foxes, but Wives and Uzzah are not necessarily auto-includes for me. The current deck I'm running uses neither of those, and it's done pretty well.  8)
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 07:27:01 AM »
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I find most of my defenses include The Deceiver, Scattered and Fire Foxes, but Wives and Uzzah are not necessarily auto-includes for me. The current deck I'm running uses neither of those, and it's done pretty well.  8)
Yeah Uzzah does necessitate an expendable artifact or two. For me that's usually I am Creator/Covenant with prayer. Also Outsiders can get extra arts to trash with Uzzah.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 08:05:58 AM »
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How about this...

Philistine Outpost

Philistine Armorbearer
Goliath
Lahmi
Ahiman Son of Anak
Fire Foxes
Outsiders (Black)
The Deceiver

Wages of Sin
Foolish Advice
Devourer
Seized by Rioters

Reserve
Sheshai Son of Anak
Ahiman Son of Anak
High Priest Annanias
Uzzah

Black is so stacked right especially with enhancements. Idol Worship, Darkness, Abandonment, Stone of Thebez... lots of ways to go. Still probably on the slow side especially compared to Crimson and Gray.

Was Lahmi supposed to be Saph?  That's an interesting proposal otherwise   ;)
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kariusvega

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2018, 08:23:43 AM »
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I get the idea of evil interrupts and negates but typically initiative or immediate action of an ability (Goliath when they have 1 hero, HPA, uzzah, ff, wives, etc) is better in nearly every blocking scenario I have seen.. Mostly due to cbn battle winners being the best offensive options and playable on already initiative gaining heroes..

Think Bravery, Triumph, Edict, Dagger, Faith of Samson, Faith of Barak, Aocp etc..

I know you aren't always facing those things but how do bands or even big ecs legitimately stand against those kinds of good enh? This is the primary reason I'm sticking with chumps.. again, I would love to see an alt defense that does hold up. John's 2016 deck is still one of the coolest decks in Redemption (besides Coney ;) The Job defense almost did just that but was deemed too strong.

I agree chump blocks are boring but they are also most effective when played strategically. #ConeyTheScapeGOAT

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2018, 08:55:25 AM »
+1
Thereís a reason that the majority of the type 1 national ranking decks have had a similar defense for the last I donít even know how many years. Itís a proven defense. This game is offensive minded and biased towards offense, as it should be. This is coming from a guy who ranked in t1 with a 70 card defense deck and who has had a lot of success in the past with heavy defense decks. I could no longer play my heavy defense style deck last year because of Coney. Now that Coney is nuked I can revisit it but simply put itís not as competitive at a national level due to Top cut. You have to have the wins PLUS differential and a strong defensive deck will not have the differential. If you are confident enough to play a heavier defensive deck, even 56 cards, in top cut then by all means more power to you. But when you can maximize your offense and play a boring, fast, guaranteed block defense you play it. It doesnít matter how many people play heavy defensive decks because the majority will play less defense and someone will get a favorable schedule. As JD said, the idea of interrupts are good but cool you interrupt clay/martyrs and then what? You play 4-6 negates total and clay will run through you. Even blue, or negate something in Throne and give them initiative. You wonít have a good record if you only use negates.
As for a specific meta defense this year, itís gonna look like the one from last year and the year before. Itís the same core just a slightly few different cards. People will go one of three ways, BTN band like KoT Red Dragon Babylon Kingís of the Earth Gomer with chump blocks, all chump blocks with TaS The Deceiver, the speed variant like Pharisees Vittles Sabbath Balaams plus chumps.
I do think the only defense that might be another consideration for meta is Moabites. They are pretty fast, efficient, small, consistent, chumpy, and you can add more chumps or speed or Pharisees or emperors, itís pretty versatile. So I see Moabites being a meta defense with some added chumps and good reserve access with multiple chump blocks in the reserve.
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 09:01:44 AM »
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Coney deck is complete trash.   :maul:  ----Me Kid----
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Offline Josh

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2018, 09:02:27 AM »
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Has anyone tried a smallish straight Orange defense recently?

ECs
KoT
PotW
Red Dragon
Abaddon
WS
TD
FW
Dragon's Minions
7SoS

EEs
Wages of Sin
Worshipping Demons
SSS
Blasphemies
War in Heaven
Mist

Support
Gates of Hell

9 ECs/6 EEs/1 support isn't exactly a small defense, but if you run The Deceiver, you can move FW and 7SoS to Reserve, and you can put a few of the EEs in Reserve thanks to Wages and Minions.  Seems to me that the recursion of 7SoS and Mist, along with all the strong autoblock Orange ECs, should be pretty resilient while only taking up maybe 13 of the 43 slots in your deck as well as 4 of the 10 slots in Reserve.
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kariusvega

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2018, 09:20:24 AM »
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Thereís a reason that the majority of the type 1 national ranking decks have had a similar defense for the last I donít even know how many years. Itís a proven defense. This game is offensive minded and biased towards offense, as it should be. This is coming from a guy who ranked in t1 with a 70 card defense deck and who has had a lot of success in the past with heavy defense decks.

Your 70 card decks are super inspiring. I love the concepts you apply in terms of blanket protection for ecs and back up after back up. When you are blocking they are facing a team of ecs, not even a band or lone blocker..

Would you mind if I posted my disciples variant of your 70 card deck? The core of that defense is so cool.

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 09:20:43 AM »
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Blasphemies is good I like the versatility but I donít think itíll really ever work. You have two negates that can also serve as battle winners but I see those being interrupted or negated everytime. In theory itís good but it gives initiative away too much and I donít like doing that going up against these offenses right now.
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Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 09:21:05 AM »
+1
Heck yeah JD, post that bad boy.
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 09:45:19 AM »
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Thereís a reason that the majority of the type 1 national ranking decks have had a similar defense for the last I donít even know how many years. Itís a proven defense.

What is the "meta" defense you believe has been dominant over the last couple years? I am not seeing it?

I see hand control
Pharisees
Greek Control
Judean Kings
Demons
Demon magician chump (really got hurt by the liner ban)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:47:33 AM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 09:48:32 AM »
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Was Lahmi supposed to be Saph?  That's an interesting proposal otherwise   ;)
Yes, lol I got my giants confuzzled.
There’s a reason that the majority of the type 1 national ranking decks have had a similar defense for the last I don’t even know how many years. It’s a proven defense.

What is the "meta" defense you believe has been dominant over the last couple years? I am not seeing it?

I see hand control
Pharisees
Greek Control
Judean Kings
Demons
Demon magician chump (really got hurt by the liner ban)
I don't think it's fair to just look at the Nats winning decks. Nationals is a very small sample size of one tournament with less than 100 players in a geographically limited area.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:55:51 AM by Red Wing »
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Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Crafting a new meta defense
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2018, 10:44:12 AM »
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If nationals isnít a good sample pool then what is?
As for the stereotypical meta defense, here are common related cards from top 1-3 national ranking decks since 2015.
JBeers the extender, one of the most unique decks in the tournament that year:
The deciever, abaddon, frog demons, gomer, uzzah, foreign wives, kings of the earth, outsiders brown, scattered.
T1 2017 MP 1st
The deceiver, messenger of Satan, vittles, sabbath breaker, the amalakites, uzzah, foreign wives, outsiders black.
T1 2p 1st 2017
The deceiver, outsiders brown, fire foxes, foreign foxes, sabbath breakers, vittles, uzzah.
2016 T1 1st
The deciever, foreign wives, messenger of Satan, SSS, DoU
2016 MP 1st
Messenger of Satan, sss, fire foxes
2015 2nd JBeers
Orange but had Foreign Wives
2015 2nd
Pharisees, foreign wives, vittles, sabbath

All similar cores all utilizing similar strategies. Thatís the meta defense Iím referring to.
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