Author Topic: You will remain/Treasures of War (Read 4128 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** February 21, 2018, 11:46:35 AM »

If I make a rescue attempt with will you will remain activated and my opponent plays Falling Away (cloud of witnesses) I activate you will remain I present a new hero and they present and evil character they have initiative and then play Treasures of War what happens?

You will remain
If opponent use and evil in the battle ability this turn you may begin a new battle. If an opponent removes your last hero from Battle you may remove this card from the game to add your Hero & battle.

Treasures of War
Place in territory: you may discard this card to negate and discard an artifact or the last artifact activated. Cannot be negated if a brown King is in play.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2018, 11:48:06 AM »

Treasures targets YWR as the last artifact activated and negates it, removing the Hero that it added to battle. You would get SI to negate Treasures.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2018, 11:56:37 AM »

So in order for me to negate Treasures of War all I would need is a negate? Or do I need a negate the last card played?

One more thing what if the hero that was added to battle bandit in another hero? Would Treasures of War remove both Heroes?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2018, 12:44:15 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 21, 2018, 11:56:37 AM

So in order for me to negate Treasures of War all I would need is a negate? Or do I need a negate the last card played?

One more thing what if the hero that was added to battle bandit in another hero? Would Treasures of War remove both Heroes?

As long as Treasures negating YWR would leave you with no characters in battle you only need a normal negate because of the rules of SI.

If the band ability is CBN or CBI, it can't be undone but otherwise yes the band would be cascade negated.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:03:38 PM »

So you’re saying the “flood” can be negated by an enhancement that says negate an enhancement in play? Because it’s “suspended”? I thought it would have to say negate the last enhancement played.

Josh · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:12:06 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 12:44:15 PM

As long as Treasures negating YWR would leave you with no characters in battle you only need a normal negate because of the rules of SI.

I disagree with this. Playing Treasures of War doesn't grant SI. Discarding it from territory to negate and discard YWR grants SI. You'd need a card that can target Treasures in territory, or that negates last.

Watchman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:13:32 PM »

With the ToW or Flood scenario it would need to be a negate the last evil enh or last enh.

Side note, Jeremy, your opponent couldn’t add a new EC to battle if he played FA as YWR just lets you add a new hero to the already existing battle. If he played an “end the battle” enh then he could use a different EC since an entirely new battle is beginning.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:26:59 PM »

If you present a Hero and your opponent uses his or her dominant initiative to play FA. Without even playing an evil character to just end the battle in its tracks. The rescuer then uses YWR, can the opponent present his first evil character to the battle?

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:29:53 PM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on February 21, 2018, 01:26:59 PM

If you present a Hero and your opponent uses his or her dominant initiative to play FA. Without even playing an evil character to just end the battle in its tracks. The rescuer then uses YWR, can the opponent present his first evil character to the battle?

You Will Remain starts a new battle, so you can add any Evil Character to battle to block, even one that was used the previous battle if they are generic.

From REG:

A unique character can only enter the Field of Battle once per turn.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:38:32 PM »

Awesome thanks! Just to clarify for the “Flood” and “TOW” you need a negate the last or interrupt the battle right? Not just a negate an enhancement in play or a regular negate correct?

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:43:30 PM »

To negate "The Flood" you can use any negate. So say for instances Flood is played by an evil character. You can use a Negate the last enhancement like "Sign of the Rainbow." You can play Negate an evil card like "Cymbals of Levites." You can also play an interrupt the battle like "Reach of Desperation." Anything that targets an evil enhancement or last card played.

Targeting cards like "You Will Remain" and "Treasures of War" require more specific cards since they are not technically in battle when triggered.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:45:59 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on February 21, 2018, 01:12:06 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 12:44:15 PM
As long as Treasures negating YWR would leave you with no characters in battle you only need a normal negate because of the rules of SI.

I disagree with this. Playing Treasures of War doesn't grant SI. Discarding it from territory to negate and discard YWR grants SI. You'd need a card that can target Treasures in territory, or that negates last.

You are correct that discarding it from territory is what grants SI, I was aware of that but should have specified.

You are incorrect that you need a negate the last. SI lets you target things like Treasures and spears with normal negates.

Quote from: REG

If the card with the removing effect was already removed from play due to one of its effects, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:49:10 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 21, 2018, 01:29:53 PM

Quote from: Lex1122 on February 21, 2018, 01:26:59 PM
If you present a Hero and your opponent uses his or her dominant initiative to play FA. Without even playing an evil character to just end the battle in its tracks. The rescuer then uses YWR, can the opponent present his first evil character to the battle?

You Will Remain starts a new battle, so you can add any Evil Character to battle to block, even one that was used the previous battle if they are generic.

From REG:

A unique character can only enter the Field of Battle once per turn.

YWR only starts a new battle if you use the part that counters End the Battle abilities.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:51:55 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 01:49:10 PM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 21, 2018, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: Lex1122 on February 21, 2018, 01:26:59 PM
If you present a Hero and your opponent uses his or her dominant initiative to play FA. Without even playing an evil character to just end the battle in its tracks. The rescuer then uses YWR, can the opponent present his first evil character to the battle?

You Will Remain starts a new battle, so you can add any Evil Character to battle to block, even one that was used the previous battle if they are generic.

From REG:

A unique character can only enter the Field of Battle once per turn.

YWR only starts a new battle if you use the part that counters End the Battle abilities.

I can't quite remember how all cards are worded, so my statements still holds true (with an "End the Battle" card), just not in the scenario provided!

Lex1122 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:01:00 PM »

Ok so both crashfach2002 and kevinthedude have two completely different takes on TOW. Negate the last and regular negate during special initiative. Can someone else give a diffintive answer please lol

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:07:06 PM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on February 21, 2018, 02:01:00 PM

Ok so both crashfach2002 and kevinthedude have two completely different takes on TOW. Negate the last and regular negate during special initiative. Can someone else give a diffintive answer please lol

Fortunately you don't need to take Crash's or my word for it; you can just read the relevant REG entry for yourself:

Quote from: REG

If the card with the removing effect was already removed from play due to one of its effects, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:07:33 PM »

Jmharts says “I disagree with this. Playing Treasures of War doesn't grant SI. Discarding it from territory to negate and discard YWR grants SI. You'd need a card that can target Treasures in territory, or that negates last.”

Lex1122 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:09:51 PM »

I got ya but the Reg. Is confusing to understand at times. So that’s why smarter people than me like yourself can help me understand it better. But when opinions differ it needs further ruling it seems.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:31:27 PM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on February 21, 2018, 02:01:00 PM

Ok so both crashfach2002 and kevinthedude have two completely different takes on TOW. Negate the last and regular negate during special initiative. Can someone else give a diffintive answer please lol

We don't have two different takes. I didn't remember the ability. So you have your answer on The Flood.

Moving on to YWR: What KtD was saying is that your example doesn't trigger the begin a new battle. So in your example with Falling Away (CoW), the hero is now an Evil Character. You can choose to use the 2nd sentence in YWR and remove it to add a hero to battle. Now since you have not presented an evil character you are allowed to do so.

YWR: If opponent uses an evil "end the battle" ability this turn, you may begin a new battle. If an opponent removes your last Hero from the battle, you may remove this from the game to add your Hero to battle.

The "disagreement" happening is when someone tries to use Treasures of War on YWR.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:35:15 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 21, 2018, 02:31:27 PM

Now since you have not presented an evil character you are allowed to do so.

To clarify this statement, I believe if Player A presents a Hero and Player B plays Falling Away, Player B is declining to block by doing so. So if afterward Player A uses YWR to add another Hero, Player B does not get a second opportunity to present a blocker and the second Hero would rescue unopposed.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:37:04 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 02:35:15 PM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 21, 2018, 02:31:27 PM
Now since you have not presented an evil character you are allowed to do so.

To clarify this statement, I believe if Player A presents a Hero and Player B plays Falling Away, Player B is declining to block by doing so. So if afterward Player A uses YWR to add another Hero, Player B does not get a second opportunity to present a blocker and the second Hero would rescue unopposed.

From Reg:

Block
A block is the attempt to stop a rescue attempt or battle challenge. Only Evil Characters may
block.
A block happens when:
• Prior to the first evil character entering battle there was an attacking hero in battle AND
• After all abilities (except abilities that add a character to the opponent's side of battle and
side battle abilities) have activated and no effects are resolving at least one evil character
entered battle AND
• At least one of the following is true:
o An ability on a good card replaced the evil characters in battle with different evil
characters OR
o No evil characters were in battle prior to the first evil character entering battle

The Guardian · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:43:19 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 02:35:15 PM

To clarify this statement, I believe if Player A presents a Hero and Player B plays Falling Away, Player B is declining to block by doing so. So if afterward Player A uses YWR to add another Hero, Player B does not get a second opportunity to present a blocker and the second Hero would rescue unopposed.

That is incorrect. Playing a dominant (good or evil) prior to blocking does not make a player lose his chance to block. A common example: someone waits for the opponent to attack, plays Mayhem and then blocks with Foreign Wives so she's protected.

A player could also use CM or FA to force the opponent to attack with a different Hero (via YWR) that they have a better chance of defeating.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:48:08 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 12:44:15 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 21, 2018, 11:56:37 AM
So in order for me to negate Treasures of War all I would need is a negate? Or do I need a negate the last card played?

As long as Treasures negating YWR would leave you with no characters in battle you only need a normal negate because of the rules of SI.

Hey Guardian is this correct? ^^ During special initiative? Look at the top post just to make sure that it was answered correctly. Thanks

Lex1122 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:50:35 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on February 21, 2018, 02:31:27 PM

Quote from: Lex1122 on February 21, 2018, 02:01:00 PM
Ok so both crashfach2002 and kevinthedude have two completely different takes on TOW. Negate the last and regular negate during special initiative. Can someone else give a diffintive answer please lol

The "disagreement" happening is when someone tries to use Treasures of War on YWR.

Can someone second one side or the other for me please .

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #24 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:50:59 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 21, 2018, 02:43:19 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on February 21, 2018, 02:35:15 PM

To clarify this statement, I believe if Player A presents a Hero and Player B plays Falling Away, Player B is declining to block by doing so. So if afterward Player A uses YWR to add another Hero, Player B does not get a second opportunity to present a blocker and the second Hero would rescue unopposed.

That is incorrect. Playing a dominant (good or evil) prior to blocking does not make a player lose his chance to block. A common example: someone waits for the opponent to attack, plays Mayhem and then blocks with Foreign Wives so she's protected.

A player could also use CM or FA to force the opponent to attack with a different Hero (via YWR) that they have a better chance of defeating.

I'm glad to be wrong then since I think it makes more since to work that way but how does that satisfy this portion?

Quote from: REG

After all abilities (except abilities that add a character to the opponent's side of battle and side battle abilities) have activated and no effects are resolving at least one evil character entered battle"

The way I understand that passage, the moment after the Hero's effect's finish resolving is the only moment a blocker can be presented and doing anything other than putting an EC in battle at that moment is the defending player passing that opportunity.

News:

Author Topic: You will remain/Treasures of War (Read 4128 times)