Author Topic: Wandering Spirit (Read 3700 times)

Korunks · « **on:** December 04, 2010, 10:35:06 PM »

My opponent makes a rescue attempt with a purple hero. I block with wandering spirit banded to another generic demon. I also have some Demons in my territory. My opponent plays AoCP. Which Demons go below the deck? Just Wandering Spirit and the one it banded to, or all of them in play? The wording was contested at my tourney today.

Quote

Wandering Spirit (TP)

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, put it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, place it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is being discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Luke 11:24 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2010, 10:56:13 PM »

All of them.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2010, 10:57:30 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 04, 2010, 10:56:13 PM

All of them.

i concur

Korunks · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:00:02 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 04, 2010, 10:56:13 PM

All of them.

Citation please?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:05:27 PM »

If you're asking a question it's because you want confirmation. You have access to all the "citation finding" tools we do. That's just how the card is worded, "your demon" means "your demon."

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:12:12 PM »

Let me play the uninformed one then...where do we have another ruling that is similar to this that Your anything includes more than the card it is printed on? I will concur with demons in battle, but territory also? Was that the intent of the card?

Gabe · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:23:32 PM »

Your

Quote from: REG

Several cards in Redemption® refer to cards that are “your” cards (e.g., your Priest, your Heroes, your demons, your warrior-class Evil Character, ). The possession and control of a card is implied by the use of the word “your”.[/your]

If possession is confusing I've also heard is defined as ownership. In the case of Wandering Spirit, all demons that you own and control are legal targets. Since abilities target cards in play (unless they say otherwise) Wandering Spirit would target all your demons in battle and territory.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:27:31 PM »

If that is the case....why wasn't demons plural instead of singular? That is my hang-up about the ruling...

The Warrior · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:29:17 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on December 04, 2010, 11:27:31 PM

If that is the case....why wasn't demons plural instead of singular? That is my hang-up about the ruling...

if u were going for pinpoint accuracy it should have been

Demon(s)

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2010, 11:35:51 PM »

- follow-up question...

So if Peter were reprinted to say While in play your disciple could not be discarded, then all 10 of the other disciples in my territory could not be discarded if Peter goes into battle, correct?

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2010, 12:32:43 AM »

Peter:
Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a disciple, put it in your territory. May band to a disciple. If your disciple is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated.

then yes

basically... "your"="any of your ____s"

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2010, 12:34:25 AM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on December 04, 2010, 11:27:31 PM

If that is the case....why wasn't demons plural instead of singular? That is my hang-up about the ruling...

I would rule that it's continuously checking the status of each of your demons, and if it is discarded, then the SA kicks in.

The Schaef · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2010, 01:09:14 AM »

You have Demon A, Demon B and Demon C sitting in front of you.

You also have a card that says if your demon is discarded, take this action.

1a). is Demon A a demon?
1b). is it yours?
1c). is it being discarded?

2a). is Demon B a demon?
2b). is it yours?
2c). is it being discarded?

3a). is Demon C a demon?
3b). is it yours?
3c). is it being discarded?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2010, 02:23:28 PM »

Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on December 05, 2010, 12:32:43 AM

Peter:
Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a disciple, put it in your territory. May band to a disciple. If your disciple is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated.

then yes

basically... "your"="any of your ____s"

Now there's a card I'd want. Plus he can use TGT!

I AM DANIEL · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2010, 09:56:49 PM »

shaef, where were you on saturday to rule this my way? i would have won the tourney!!!!! techno and korunks, said that it referred to demons in battle. they said it didn't so as a result my d got wiped

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2010, 10:00:06 PM »

Quote from: I AM DANIEL on December 05, 2010, 09:56:49 PM

shaef, where were you on saturday to rule this my way? i would have won the tourney!!!!! techno and korunks, said that it referred to demons in battle. they said it didn't so as a result my d got wiped

I said that it would work this way but i got outruled...i would have been fine either way but i prefer the way it should work....

Korunks · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2010, 11:08:48 PM »

Quote from: I AM DANIEL on December 05, 2010, 09:56:49 PM

shaef, where were you on saturday to rule this my way? i would have won the tourney!!!!! techno and korunks, said that it referred to demons in battle. they said it didn't so as a result my d got wiped

Well, that what happens at a tournament. The judge has to make the best call that they can. I am human, I make mistakes. I already spend hours upon hours on these forums reading the latest rulings because the REG cannot be trusted to have accurate information.

TheMarti · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2010, 11:10:13 PM »

Now, without being a jerk, this is really dumb.

I'm honestly getting really tired of inconsistencies. Sometimes we play this huge semantics game and have to take everything literally. Then, we take something literally, and "oh no, that's not how that works." Can we get something uniform? The elders system was supposed to fix this, but that concept doesn't work when only 2-4 of them are talking.

/rant end.

Also, to respond to Shawn's comment, the ruling was Brad and I's fault, not his.

Korunks · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2010, 11:14:09 PM »

No I was involved too, I share some of the blame. But if every mistake I make is going to be called out on the forums its going to seriously dampen my desire to host. In almost 2 years of hosting I have had 2 bad calls and both get posted on the boards. Is this normal or am I just unlucky?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2010, 12:08:09 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on December 05, 2010, 11:14:09 PM

No I was involved too, I share some of the blame. But if every mistake I make is going to be called out on the forums its going to seriously dampen my desire to host. In almost 2 years of hosting I have had 2 bad calls and both get posted on the boards. Is this normal or am I just unlucky?

I'm pretty sure it's normal. I've seen plenty of judging errors posted on the boards, especially when it comes to deciding games for tournaments. Errors happen, and just like in football, occasionally judges make bad calls that cost you/your favorite team a tournament/2010 NFC Championship game. Don't feel bad about it. I just ran my first tournament yesterday, and while I had the luxury of another elder (my brother) and several other experienced players for ruling questions, it still wasn't easy to make rulings on top of the many other things going on.

To everyone else, please remember to be gracious to hosts/judges, even when they make mistakes/incorrect rulings. Unlike NFL referees, who I believe it can be perfectly within our rights as Christians to despise*, hosts don't make a ton of money and the only real motivation for them to host is because they love the game and the fellowship it provides. Without them, tournaments cannot exist. I believe that judges should try to be as informed on current rulings as they can, but they also have to make rulings that can't be strongly supported one way or another, and they might end up being wrong. But they are the judges, and thus whatever they say goes. That's part and parcel of playing in a tournament.

*I don't really think that. It is unchristian to hate referees. But they still deserve it sometimes...

I AM DANIEL · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2010, 01:36:33 AM »

I would like to say sorry in front of everyone to TechnoEthicist and Korunks. I caused distention among brothers and that is not my heart or my intentions in any way, shape, or form. In my previous post, I acted immature and angry. That is not what God wants. I don't want heat or anything like that. I am very sorry for how rude and disrespectful I was to the judges.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2010, 02:36:24 AM »

This does highlight, yet again, the utterly ridiculous state Redemption is in right now. I know some people get all huffy when I talk about the REG not being reliable, and they come back with "99% of the REG is correct..." Well, that's not nearly good enough. If a ruling document is not 100% correct it's less than zero percent correct. The whole point of the REG is to have an official document to refer to so that bad rulings don't happen, happen with less frequency, or can be diverted by a simple search of an online document.

I understand that there's a new REG coming out some time, but sorry, the grace period for that ended when we went through an entire season with no reliable ruling document and are four months into the next one with still nothing. It wouldn't be as bad if the current REG were still being maintained and fixed every time another error is found (something that would be easy if it weren't such a stupid setup where only one person in the world can access it). But we've got elders disagreeing, absolutely NO official definition for something as simple as "play," no clarification on blocks, successful rescue, defeats, etc. and we're rapidly approaching another tournament season.

Whatever is taking so long with the new REG, it's not a good enough reason. We need a rules document.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2010, 09:15:37 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on December 05, 2010, 11:14:09 PM

No I was involved too, I share some of the blame. But if every mistake I make is going to be called out on the forums its going to seriously dampen my desire to host. In almost 2 years of hosting I have had 2 bad calls and both get posted on the boards. Is this normal or am I just unlucky?

It happens like that sometimes. Nobody is upset. A judgment call was made. Don't let something this little make you not want to host again...I don't wanna be the only host in this state....

lol

Korunks · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2010, 09:21:16 AM »

Quote

It happens like that sometimes. Nobody is upset. A judgment call was made. Don't let something this little make you not want to host again...I don't wanna be the only host in this state.... Shocked Roll Eyes lol

I said it would dampen my desire not eliminate it. I am far to stubborn to give up on hosting that easily. I apologize if my tone was harsh. It was late, I was grumpy, and then I came to the ruling sections and saw this and my head went *boom*. Its all good I don't think anymore needs to be said about it.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #24 on:** December 06, 2010, 10:26:42 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 06, 2010, 02:36:24 AM

This does highlight, yet again, the utterly ridiculous state Redemption is in right now. I know some people get all huffy when I talk about the REG not being reliable, and they come back with "99% of the REG is correct..." Well, that's not nearly good enough. If a ruling document is not 100% correct it's less than zero percent correct. The whole point of the REG is to have an official document to refer to so that bad rulings don't happen, happen with less frequency, or can be diverted by a simple search of an online document.

I understand that there's a new REG coming out some time, but sorry, the grace period for that ended when we went through an entire season with no reliable ruling document and are four months into the next one with still nothing. It wouldn't be as bad if the current REG were still being maintained and fixed every time another error is found (something that would be easy if it weren't such a stupid setup where only one person in the world can access it). But we've got elders disagreeing, absolutely NO official definition for something as simple as "play," no clarification on blocks, successful rescue, defeats, etc. and we're rapidly approaching another tournament season.

Whatever is taking so long with the new REG, it's not a good enough reason. We need a rules document.

Keep in mind that the system is being run by a bunch of volunteers. You get what you pay for.

News:

Author Topic: Wandering Spirit (Read 3700 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

I AM DANIEL

TheMarti

I AM DANIEL