Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Play Nazareth

You realize the other option is that you don't get to play SoG NJ on the draw if they want to play Mayhem don't you?

Why in all other general rules to Redemption you have the right to respond to your opponent's actions, but with Mayhem you can not? (ex. he/she plays mayhem, you get sog/nj, so do they, but they get to respond to "their own action") You should be able to respond to your opponent in a similar way to initiative in battle. This gives mayhem far to much power in deciding the outcome of games.

Quote from: theselfevident on June 23, 2013, 12:05:58 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 23, 2013, 12:04:03 AM

You realize the other option is that you don't get to play SoG NJ on the draw if they want to play Mayhem don't you?

explain? do you mean on the normal draw?

Yes. Normal draw. If you had the rule how you described, you wouldn't have any bearing to say that you can play sog nj in that situation.

When you push an EC into battle you get to respond to your own action by playing Grapes before they can AotL. Responding to your own action is only the solution when dominant slapjack occurs.

I don't think drawing as part of your normal draw phase is an actual action, it's a game rule. If we're talking about drawing off a special ability that YOU control then yes that is your own action BUT responding to your own action only applies in slapjack. In other words, if you draw cards off your own special ability and get Sog/NJ and play them immediately your opponent can't play mayhem to stop you, but if you draw and then a reasonable amount of time passes or you go to play another card, then you're out of luck because you didn't play them in response to your own action. At that point you are trying to play them in response to your opponents action of playing Mayhem, and you don't get to do that because you have to wait for Mayhem's ability to complete and also you can't respond to your opponent's actions in that way.

Keep in mind that a rule allowing a player to respond to their own action (thus winning a slapjack scenario) applies to more than just the use of Mayhem. In fact, as a whole, the rule benefits defense a great deal more than offense. As has been pointed out in this topic, the response to one's own action allows a player currently defending to play Grapes as soon as they present an evil character. It allows a player to play Burial on a tapped 2-Liner before their opponent can play Son of God.

It seems to me that in fairness to effect, much like with initiative, you should have an opportunity to respond to an opponents action, or you should always be able to respond to your own actions, like in the draw phase example, you should be able to respond to your action of drawing... Mayhem has its cake and eats it too, and it shouldn't have that much power.

ok so you can play sog/nj before mayhem on my normal draw... and why can't you play a standard card before they play mayhem on your draw?

Why do you need a tie-breaker, why not have a hard rule that says, based on your own action, you are allowed to play a dominant prior to your opponent? much like initiative you announce whether or not you are going to play a dom, then you don't have slap jack?

I actually am starting to dislike the "reasonable amount of time" since that is both difficult to rule on and not well defined. Also I don't think the game should have to keep track of time (aside from the time limits in tournaments to keep games moving at a decent pace)

I actually will suggest a system of priority that would get rid of the "reasonable amount of time" altogether, weaken dominants (especially Mayhem) and kill slapjack altogether.

Priority: A player needs priority to play any card (except by initiative), activate any optional special ability or do a phase specific action (activate artifact, present rescuer, present blocker, add a site to battle).
A player gets priority at the beginning of the Preparation phase, discard phase, at the beginning of the battle phase and at every check of initiative. Priority passes to the left when you finish playing cards. Once all players pass priority in a row the next phase begins (if during preparation or discard phase), the first initiative check happens (if it is the battle phase before the first initiative check) or a player deals with the initiative check (if during the battle phase)

This would fundamentally change some of how the game works, it eliminates "reasonable amount of time" altogether, it eliminates slapjack, it also moves the presenting a hero for a battle firmly in the battle phase. It defines a few phase specific actions (which are sort of part of the game already, but forces them to be well defined), it weakens Mayhem because your opponent can't just play it right after a draw (or a reasonable amount of time after a draw), it keeps the responding to your own action (and expands on it). It would make play more well defined and therefore easier to rule weird situations (especially if an argument happens and a judge is called over, but doesn't know how long a player gave the other player to respond to their own action and can't therefore know if a reasonable amount of time happened)

That would slow the game down immensely and not in a good way.