Author Topic: Official ruling needed? (Read 5827 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **on:** December 24, 2009, 09:12:06 PM »

What is the ruling with weapons on withdrawing characters?

Isildur · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2009, 09:24:48 PM »

To my understanding they stay. Though "technically" it might be different.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #2 on:** December 24, 2009, 09:25:39 PM »

Quote from: Isildur on December 24, 2009, 09:24:48 PM

To my understanding they stay. Though "technically" it might be different.

I mean do they activate if I do say Spy- Warriors spear. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** December 24, 2009, 09:30:35 PM »

This is the REG definition of Special Abilities. Unless an official ruling on these boards says otherwise, then the weapon would not activate.

Quote

First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except those that add a character to the battle (banding abilities). Note that some special abilities can happen together even though they may be separated by a period (e.g., Authority of Christ promo). Second, if the card is a character with either a gained ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.

Master KChief · « **Reply #4 on:** December 24, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »

it has been ruled differently, just recently actually by bryon. for instance, spy + warriors spear would still work.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=18860.0

as you can see, it works.

i also cant see where anyone can justify anywhere in that REG quote that the weapon would not activate.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #5 on:** December 24, 2009, 09:51:04 PM »

YMT is that official enough for ya?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2009, 10:43:11 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 24, 2009, 09:51:04 PM

YMT is that official enough for ya?

Yes.

Quote from: Master KChief on December 24, 2009, 09:46:35 PM

i also cant see where anyone can justify anywhere in that REG quote that the weapon would not activate.

Simple. Spy's ability completes, which takes him and his spear out of battle. The spear would not activate since Spy is no longer in battle for it to activate on.

Even though that is not how it works, it is fairly simple to see where someone could justify it by the REG.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #7 on:** December 24, 2009, 10:54:47 PM »

*nod* Okay sweet! *runs off to be evil*

Master KChief · « **Reply #8 on:** December 24, 2009, 11:41:25 PM »

did weapon enter battle? yes.
was weapon interrupted or prevented? no.
weapon still resolves.

Isildur · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2009, 12:17:57 AM »

Lol RR its funny you asked this question because you responded in the old thread MKChief posted lol

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2009, 12:50:50 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 24, 2009, 11:41:25 PM

did weapon enter battle? yes.
was weapon interrupted or prevented? no.
weapon still resolves.

No need to be a "yes man" (as you like to say). I can read Bryon's ruling, and I already acknowledged its validity. However, I was responding to your claim that you "cant see where anyone can justify anywhere in that REG quote that the weapon would not activate." I gave you a way that it could be justified. There are precedents for SAs that enter battle, are not interrupted or prevented, and yet do not resolve.

For example, if I block with Babel to bring in a ton of ECs, but on one of them use an ability that lets me play an enhancement and I choose an enhancement that says "battle immediately ends," do all the other SAs still resolve? Specifically, do the weapons on the remaining characters still activate?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2009, 01:48:42 AM »

Quote from: Isildur on December 25, 2009, 12:17:57 AM

Lol RR its funny you asked this question because you responded in the old thread MKChief posted lol

I didn't know if it was official

Master KChief · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2009, 01:53:07 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 25, 2009, 12:50:50 AM

Quote from: Master KChief on December 24, 2009, 11:41:25 PM
did weapon enter battle? yes.
was weapon interrupted or prevented? no.
weapon still resolves.

No need to be a "yes man" (as you like to say). I can read Bryon's ruling, and I already acknowledged its validity. However, I was responding to your claim that you "cant see where anyone can justify anywhere in that REG quote that the weapon would not activate." I gave you a way that it could be justified. There are precedents for SAs that enter battle, are not interrupted or prevented, and yet do not resolve.

For example, if I block with Babel to bring in a ton of ECs, but on one of them use an ability that lets me play an enhancement and I choose an enhancement that says "battle immediately ends," do all the other SAs still resolve? Specifically, do the weapons on the remaining characters still activate?

not being a yes-man, as i clearly justified my stance with logic. also, there is no precedent to what you claim. in your scenario, as long as no interrupt or negate card is played, there is no reason each special ability would not activate.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #13 on:** December 25, 2009, 10:00:40 AM »

In the babel situation, there is a reason they wouldn't activate. It's the same reason you can't interrupt an end the battle card. The battle ends, and nothing else activates.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2009, 12:05:01 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 25, 2009, 01:53:07 AM

not being a yes-man, as i clearly justified my stance with logic.

Bryon's logic:

Quote from: Bryon on December 08, 2009, 03:26:21 PM

Did the spear enter battle? yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

Quote from: Master KChief on December 24, 2009, 11:41:25 PM

did weapon enter battle? yes.
was weapon interrupted or prevented? no.
weapon still resolves.

In the Babel case, you are mistaken, unless Bryon has ruled otherwise for "end the battle" cards.

Master KChief · « **Reply #15 on:** December 25, 2009, 03:44:15 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 25, 2009, 10:00:40 AM

In the babel situation, there is a reason they wouldn't activate. It's the same reason you can't interrupt an end the battle card. The battle ends, and nothing else activates.

so you're suggesting each special ability on each evil character resolves one at a time, rather than simultaneously? i seem to recall hearing the exact opposite of what you claim from maly.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 25, 2009, 12:05:01 PM

In the Babel case, you are mistaken, unless Bryon has ruled otherwise for "end the battle" cards.

please explain to me how i can be mistaken, if the exact same logic can be applied here:

did evil characters enter battle? yes.
were any evil characters interrupted or prevented? no.
evil characters special abilities resolve.

how is this so different from the spy/spear ruling?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** December 25, 2009, 06:08:41 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 25, 2009, 03:44:15 PM

i seem to recall hearing the exact opposite of what you claim from maly.

I believe rather that Maly presented the situation as:

1. Select all ECs who will enter battle all at once (one-time targetting)
2. Activate characters in any order holder chooses

Basically, the question is whether an "end the battle" card does in fact end the battle.

Quote from: Master KChief on December 25, 2009, 03:44:15 PM

please explain to me how i can be mistaken, if the exact same logic can be applied here:

I can't, which is why I question the ruling made by Bryon (more specifically, the logic) quoted above. One or the other would have to be untrue.

Master KChief · « **Reply #17 on:** December 25, 2009, 09:10:47 PM »

you are correct, that is the way maly presented it. however, i dont see how an 'end the battle' card is any bit different than the spy's inherent ability from withdrawing. in the babel case, you've ended the battle, yes, but there are still abilities on the 'stack' (per se) waiting to be resolved. were any interrupted or prevented? if not, resolve them. both situations which you've described are practically the same.

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2009, 02:44:46 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Master KChief on December 25, 2009, 03:44:15 PM

so you're suggesting each special ability on each evil character resolves one at a time, rather than simultaneously? i seem to recall hearing the exact opposite of what you claim from maly.

Nothing in Redemption happens Simultaneously.

The difference between spy/warrior's spear and babel/end the battle, is that the rules specify that:

"If there are pending abilities when a battle immediately ends ability occurs, the pending abilities never complete their activation and never take effect."

There is no similar rule for withdraw abilities. Which is why a weapon doesn't activate in the babel scenario but does in the spy/warrior's spear scenario.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Master KChief · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2009, 02:50:12 AM »

why do pending abilities never activate if they were never interrupted or prevented? how is a withdraw ability not a 'battle immediately ends ability' if used offensively? how are the two situations any different if they're almost exactly similiar in mechanic?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #20 on:** December 26, 2009, 06:51:11 AM »

Quote

Nothing in Redemption happens Simultaneously.

New Jerusalem?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #21 on:** December 26, 2009, 08:58:55 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 26, 2009, 02:50:12 AM

why do pending abilities never activate if they were never interrupted or prevented? how is a withdraw ability not a 'battle immediately ends ability' if used offensively? how are the two situations any different if they're almost exactly similiar in mechanic?

This is my basic problem with the ruling for Warrior's Spear. If the only hero in battle withdraws, then the battle is over. I think the rules for "battle immediately ends" should apply.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #22 on:** December 26, 2009, 09:58:24 AM »

Completely agree. If the battle ends abilities are stopped. Whether with end the battle or withdraw...this makes logical sense...

SirNobody · « **Reply #23 on:** December 26, 2009, 03:16:51 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Master KChief on December 26, 2009, 02:50:12 AM

why do pending abilities never activate if they were never interrupted or prevented?

Because that's what the "battle immediately ends" (or "end the battle") keyword does, by definition.

If I have multiple heroes in battle and withdraw one of them is the battle immediately over? Of course not, the remaining character continues to fight. If I have one hero in battle against an evil character and withdraw it is the battle immediately over? No, I can still play a card such as Grapes of Wrath on the Evil Character in battle.

Under normal rules the battle ends when both players agree to play no more cards in battle. An end the battle ability creates an alternative to that rule, a withdraw ability does not.

Saying that Withdraw and Battle Immediately Ends abilities both end the battle is like saying that immune and ignore abilities both win the battle. It's just not the case.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Master KChief · « **Reply #24 on:** December 26, 2009, 03:31:16 PM »

it would help if there were an 'end the battle' keyword in the REG. of course, there isnt.

i still dont see how its logical to say that an ability can activate outside of battle in spys case, whereas it cannot in babels/mass banding case.

News:

Author Topic: Official ruling needed? (Read 5827 times)

Lamborghini_diablo