Author Topic: New Son of God and the Hopper  (Read 4962 times)

Offline Gabe

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2013, 07:45:07 PM »
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I was just summarizing what I know. Presently it is not being discussed so that is not official. If those guys would like to make their interpretation official they are welcome to write up a change for the definition of a Dominant as well as the official rule book. Then we can make the change official. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, we stay with the status quo. That is, a Dominant can be played at any time.
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Chris

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2013, 07:50:47 PM »
+1
Is it possible to tweak that slightly? I feel like saying "a Dominant can be played at any time" is misleading, which is why so many new players assume that if someone plays Authority of Christ or something, they could play Grapes to discard their evil character because the rule says "a Dominant can be played at any time".

Offline Praeceps

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2013, 11:54:03 PM »
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Is it possible to tweak that slightly? I feel like saying "a Dominant can be played at any time" is misleading, which is why so many new players assume that if someone plays Authority of Christ or something, they could play Grapes to discard their evil character because the rule says "a Dominant can be played at any time".

Why? You can still play grapes, it just won't do anything. This doesn't change the fact that you can play it.
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Chris

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2013, 11:57:47 PM »
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Is it possible to tweak that slightly? I feel like saying "a Dominant can be played at any time" is misleading, which is why so many new players assume that if someone plays Authority of Christ or something, they could play Grapes to discard their evil character because the rule says "a Dominant can be played at any time".

Why? You can still play grapes, it just won't do anything. This doesn't change the fact that you can play it.

Because technically, you can't play it until the other ability has finished first. It's an important distinction to make.

Offline Bryon

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2013, 12:12:18 AM »
+5
Dominants can't be played at any time.  You can't play a dominant while a special ability or game rule is being carried out.

For example:
If you are resolving the battle phase by comparing numbers, you can't play a dominant.
If your evil character is decreased to 0/0 in battle, you can't play Grapes of Wrath on it before it is discarded by game rule.
If your opponent plays A New Beginning, you can't play your dominant really quickly before your hand gets shuffled.

Game effects that are automatically triggered cannot be interrupted by the playing of a dominant.  For example, a decrease that results in a discard, the draw at the start of the turn, and the placement of counters during the upkeep phase.

I agree with Isildur that there shouldn't be any "between" phases.  "Responses" to phases seems really odd to me, too.

There are cards that respond to things that happen in the draw and upkeep phases.  For example, Lost Souls insert their abilities during the draw phase.  Artifacts such as Gift of the Magi can trigger during an opponent's upkeep phase.

But those cards are played by game rule (Lost Souls), or are automatically triggered (Gifts).  That is different than introducing a new card.  It seems to me that you can't play a new card during the draw phase or upkeep phase if every turn begins with a command like this:

Draw 3.  Add counters.  Begin Preparation Phase.


Warrior_Monk

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2013, 12:58:49 AM »
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Gifts isn't the best of examples because Set-Asides don't come back until the preparation phase and the only way to draw during upkeep would be fortresses, but I get the point. Not what I would have wanted (dominants need more power, right?*), but the ruling is consistant and makes sense. Thanks PTB.

*Yes, that was sarcasm.

EDIT: Whoops. 7 Years.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 08:40:32 PM by Westy »

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2013, 10:44:22 AM »
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Dominants can't be played at any time.  You can't play a dominant while a special ability or game rule is being carried out.

For example:
If you are resolving the battle phase by comparing numbers, you can't play a dominant.
If your evil character is decreased to 0/0 in battle, you can't play Grapes of Wrath on it before it is discarded by game rule.
If your opponent plays A New Beginning, you can't play your dominant really quickly before your hand gets shuffled.

Game effects that are automatically triggered cannot be interrupted by the playing of a dominant.  For example, a decrease that results in a discard, the draw at the start of the turn, and the placement of counters during the upkeep phase.

I agree with Isildur that there shouldn't be any "between" phases.  "Responses" to phases seems really odd to me, too.

There are cards that respond to things that happen in the draw and upkeep phases.  For example, Lost Souls insert their abilities during the draw phase.  Artifacts such as Gift of the Magi can trigger during an opponent's upkeep phase.

But those cards are played by game rule (Lost Souls), or are automatically triggered (Gifts).  That is different than introducing a new card.  It seems to me that you can't play a new card during the draw phase or upkeep phase if every turn begins with a command like this:

Draw 3.  Add counters.  Begin Preparation Phase.

I agree with this. The one possible issue is that if a dominant is played inadvertently before a player takes an upkeep action, then the action is completed, then the dominant completes. So if you do play Mayhem immediately after your opponent draws his 3 cards, then he is allowed to add counters, or complete things like Fishing Boat (though I'm not sure why you'd want to draw before Mayhem triggers), Set Fire, etc. There are very few cases where this would matter (adding counters happens automatically, and other upkeep actions generally don't affect dominants) but I think it makes the most sense for draw phase and upkeep phases are similar to abilities that trigger with the beginning of the turn, and doms can't be played while they resolve.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2013, 10:56:26 AM »
+1
The one possible issue is that if a dominant is played inadvertently before a player takes an upkeep action, then the action is completed, then the dominant completes.
I think this could cause a slapjack situation, and therefore I would rule a bit differently here.  Imagine I am drawing on my draw phase, and I already have 3 LSs rescued, and 2 more available in my opponent's land of bondage.  I clearly want to play SoG/NJ as soon as I draw them, and my opponent clearly wants to play Mayhem to stop me.  Just because he "inadvertantly" plays his Mayhem during my upkeep phase, that doesn't mean that it will happen before I can play my SoG/NJ.  I still get the opportunity to respond to my own action of drawing to play my dominants first.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2013, 07:40:40 PM »
+1
Gifts isn't the best of examples because Set-Asides don't come back until the preparation phase and the only way to draw during upkeep would be fortresses, but I get the point. Not what I would have wanted (dominants need more power, right?*), but the ruling is consistant and makes sense. Thanks PTB.

*Yes, that was sarcasm.
Seven Years of Plenty draws during upkeep

http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Seven_Years_of_Plenty_%28FF2%29
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Offline spacy32

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2013, 01:27:09 PM »
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Quote
2.  You cannot rescue lost souls in your own Land of Bondage.

To clarify, Westy is referring to using SoG on the same phase that Hopper is drawn to negate it. Honestly, I don't see how this wouldn't work. The negate comes first, and there's no game rule disallowing the ability to negate a soul in your territory.

Actually it would not work. The lost soul would go from hand to opponents land of bondage immediately. The Exegesis says, "Cards that are considered in play include cards in territories and cards in any main battle or or side battle that hasn't been set-aside by a special ability. Abilities that don't specify where their targets must be located by default can only target cards in play.  Because the new Son of God does not say negate a lost soul in hand it cannot target it because it has not been on bondage. A lost soul has to go into bondage to be rescued.  I think that is right.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2013, 01:59:13 PM »
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Land of Bondage is part of Territory, and therefore is in play.

Perhaps you were confused because the Land of Redemption is out of play?

Offline spacy32

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2013, 03:26:18 PM »
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Land of Bondage is part of Territory, and therefore is in play.

Perhaps you were confused because the Land of Redemption is out of play?

Actually I was referring to the hopper's ability that says when drawn place in your opponents land of bondage. That means it doesn't become in play until it is in the opponent's land of bondage. Ergo cannot negate what is not in play and it would resolve by becoming in play.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »
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Land of Bondage is part of Territory, and therefore is in play.

Perhaps you were confused because the Land of Redemption is out of play?

Actually I was referring to the hopper's ability that says when drawn place in your opponents land of bondage. That means it doesn't become in play until it is in the opponent's land of bondage. Ergo cannot negate what is not in play and it would resolve by becoming in play.

Correct. But once it is in your opponent's Land of Bondage, it can be negated by your opponent's SoG, which would kick it back to your LoB for your opponent to be able to rescue it.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2013, 03:34:50 PM »
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That means it doesn't become in play until it is in the opponent's land of bondage.
This is where you are confused.  When LSs are drawn they automatically are placed into your own LoB.  When the Hopper enters play (in your LoB), then it's SA activates which sends it to your opponent's LoB (assuming that it was drawn, and not put into your LoB by your opponent's Harvest Time or something).

Offline spacy32

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2013, 12:55:51 AM »
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Ah I see and getting more confused by the minute. I was going by the fact that it says when drawn and not when played. It doesn't say when it inters your land of bondage. this might need more clarification. A lot more.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2013, 02:51:48 AM »
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Ah I see and getting more confused by the minute. I was going by the fact that it says when drawn and not when played. It doesn't say when it inters your land of bondage. this might need more clarification. A lot more.
The Hopper is a Lost Soul card. Lost Soul cards, by definition, are immediately put into your land of bondage. When they are put in your land of bondage, their ability takes effect. This would then transfer it over to one of your opponents, but first it hits your land of bondage.

That said, it can't be buried in this 0 second time because the ability takes effect as soon as it is placed in your land of bondage, which happens as soon as it is drawn.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: New Son of God and the Hopper
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2013, 07:05:16 AM »
+3
Ah I see and getting more confused by the minute. I was going by the fact that it says when drawn and not when played. It doesn't say when it inters your land of bondage. this might need more clarification. A lot more.

The problem here is semantics. The "when drawn" is there to distinguish between other ways that Lost Soul cards can be taken out of your draw pile (i.e. Harvest Time, as Prof Underwood mentioned). Thus, if you (or your opponent) searched for the Hopper, then put it in LoB, the ability would not activate since it was not drawn. You are taking the "when drawn" too literally, as to say "immediately after you draw this card," but that would never be the case, because special abilities never take effect after you read them, only after you play them. Sometimes, however, the abilities are conditional (like this one).
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