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2.  You cannot rescue lost souls in your own Land of Bondage.

To clarify, Westy is referring to using SoG on the same phase that Hopper is drawn to negate it. Honestly, I don't see how this wouldn't work. The negate comes first, and there's no game rule disallowing the ability to negate a soul in your territory.

Wouldn't it depend on when the hopper was drawn? No cards can be played during the draw phase, so this hopper would have to be drawn during a different phase if this were to possibly work...

wouldnt this also work against you? like, if you had your own hopper, and it went to your opponent on turn 2, then, on turn 4 you draw son of God and play it to rescue your own hopper, which is in their LoB. Since its negated, wouldnt it go back to your own LoB, and then you wouldnt be able to rescue it?

Quote from: bballer54 on June 07, 2013, 11:07:29 PM

wouldnt this also work against you? like, if you had your own hopper, and it went to your opponent on turn 2, then, on turn 4 you draw son of God and play it to rescue your own hopper, which is in their LoB. Since its negated, wouldnt it go back to your own LoB, and then you wouldnt be able to rescue it?

Once the Hopper is in their territory it cannot be negated in a later phase. Place abilities cannot be negated after the phase they were played in ends. This is why if you attack with Cheribum with Wheel Within a Wheel and they block with KoT, W3 isn't discarded after battle.

oh ok. Thanks

Hey,

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2013, 10:01:11 PM

I don't see why dominants shouldn't be able to be played in the draw phase if it's in response to an opponent's action. It does say the upkeep phase follows immediately after, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't play cards during the draw phase.

It's the same reason you can't play Harvest Time in response to your opponent's only remaining lost soul being underdecked with Hormah durring battle resolution.  Like battle resolution, the draw phase (and upkeep phase) are "instant" phases, you do what must be done and move on.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Battle Resolution isn't exactly a phase, it's a subphase (like the artifact phase), but I guess I can live with that. Still, being able to negate Hopper off Feast/Hero draws seems good.

In the rulebook (which I accessed through the REG), under Diagram of a Turn --> Overview, it states

Quote

The following phases are performed each turn, even if nothing is actively done on a particular phase.  A response is allowed between every separate phase.

This seems to say that Mayhem (and other dominants) could be played between phases, which would allow it to be played after drawing and before Sin in the Camp targets the 3 cards. If this is not the case, then this statement is misleading, because that is how I would interpret it...

Well done, Ken.  That quote seems pretty clear to me.  Nice find.

These quotes are from an old thread about Mayhem and SiTC but seem to suggest that you can play Mayhem in the draw phase. SirNobody disagreed.

I agree with The Hobbit back in 2010 I was told Mayhem could be played during the draw phase by multiple judges at the Boston Nats.

In keeping with simplicity of the rules does it really make any sense to play stuff "between" phases? I have NEVER heard of another card game that has phases and in-between phases

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on June 07, 2013, 11:39:50 PM

Quote from: bballer54 on June 07, 2013, 11:07:29 PM

wouldnt this also work against you? like, if you had your own hopper, and it went to your opponent on turn 2, then, on turn 4 you draw son of God and play it to rescue your own hopper, which is in their LoB. Since its negated, wouldnt it go back to your own LoB, and then you wouldnt be able to rescue it?

Once the Hopper is in their territory it cannot be negated in a later phase. Place abilities cannot be negated after the phase they were played in ends. This is why if you attack with Cheribum with Wheel Within a Wheel and they block with KoT, W3 isn't discarded after battle.

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on June 08, 2013, 05:25:44 PM

What you quoted says that cards can be played between phases, not during phases.

It doesn't matter whether Mayhem can be played in draw phase or not only that it can be played before the next phase takes place.

Actually, the original question in this thread does have a vested interest in the question of when dominants are played before the prep phase.

I'm pretty sure it was removed from he I/J rule book.

I would say that you can do what the OP suggests if the hopper is drawn outside of draw phase. The only thing that can happen during your draw phase is drawing (and any resultant abilities of LSs drawn, such as shame, far country and territory discard).

What about Upkeep Phase? The only thing that happens during upkeep is a turn is triggered and any abilities that specifically say it. Can I play Mayhem before they get to use Fishing Boat? Can I play SoG on a hopper drawn by Fishing Boat?

Quote from: Westy on June 09, 2013, 03:12:54 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 09, 2013, 10:20:07 AM

I would say that you can do what the OP suggests if the hopper is drawn outside of draw phase. The only thing that can happen during your draw phase is drawing (and any resultant abilities of LSs drawn, such as shame, far country and territory discard).

What about Upkeep Phase? The only thing that happens during upkeep is a turn is triggered and any abilities that specifically say it. Can I play Mayhem before they get to use Fishing Boat? Can I play SoG on a hopper drawn by Fishing Boat?

doesn't the hoppers ability need to complete before you can play SoG?

Yes, but the first ability of the new Son of God negates a soul, then rescues it.  You target it to negate it, which sends it back to your opponent's land of bondage, then you target it to rescue it.

So I can play mayhem before my upkeep phase right?

At the very least, Tim, Jordan and Bryon all wish to have the draw and upkeep phases become a series of triggered effects which would allow no response during or between the triggers. While that is not my preference I'll submit to thier collective wisdom. That would be a change to the status quo that dominants can be played anytime and your opponent must allow a dominant to be played before moving to the next phase. It's my understanding that under thier interpretation a dominant could not be played until the prep phase.

I was just summarizing what I know. Presently it is not being discussed so that is not official. If those guys would like to make their interpretation official they are welcome to write up a change for the definition of a Dominant as well as the official rule book. Then we can make the change official. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, we stay with the status quo. That is, a Dominant can be played at any time.

Is it possible to tweak that slightly? I feel like saying "a Dominant can be played at any time" is misleading, which is why so many new players assume that if someone plays Authority of Christ or something, they could play Grapes to discard their evil character because the rule says "a Dominant can be played at any time".

Why? You can still play grapes, it just won't do anything. This doesn't change the fact that you can play it.

Dominants can't be played at any time.  You can't play a dominant while a special ability or game rule is being carried out.

For example:
If you are resolving the battle phase by comparing numbers, you can't play a dominant.
If your evil character is decreased to 0/0 in battle, you can't play Grapes of Wrath on it before it is discarded by game rule.
If your opponent plays A New Beginning, you can't play your dominant really quickly before your hand gets shuffled.

Game effects that are automatically triggered cannot be interrupted by the playing of a dominant.  For example, a decrease that results in a discard, the draw at the start of the turn, and the placement of counters during the upkeep phase.

I agree with Isildur that there shouldn't be any "between" phases.  "Responses" to phases seems really odd to me, too.

There are cards that respond to things that happen in the draw and upkeep phases.  For example, Lost Souls insert their abilities during the draw phase.  Artifacts such as Gift of the Magi can trigger during an opponent's upkeep phase.

But those cards are played by game rule (Lost Souls), or are automatically triggered (Gifts).  That is different than introducing a new card.  It seems to me that you can't play a new card during the draw phase or upkeep phase if every turn begins with a command like this:

Draw 3.  Add counters.  Begin Preparation Phase.

Dominants can't be played at any time.  You can't play a dominant while a special ability or game rule is being carried out.

For example:
If you are resolving the battle phase by comparing numbers, you can't play a dominant.
If your evil character is decreased to 0/0 in battle, you can't play Grapes of Wrath on it before it is discarded by game rule.
If your opponent plays A New Beginning, you can't play your dominant really quickly before your hand gets shuffled.

Game effects that are automatically triggered cannot be interrupted by the playing of a dominant.  For example, a decrease that results in a discard, the draw at the start of the turn, and the placement of counters during the upkeep phase.

I agree with Isildur that there shouldn't be any "between" phases.  "Responses" to phases seems really odd to me, too.

There are cards that respond to things that happen in the draw and upkeep phases.  For example, Lost Souls insert their abilities during the draw phase.  Artifacts such as Gift of the Magi can trigger during an opponent's upkeep phase.

But those cards are played by game rule (Lost Souls), or are automatically triggered (Gifts).  That is different than introducing a new card.  It seems to me that you can't play a new card during the draw phase or upkeep phase if every turn begins with a command like this:

Draw 3.  Add counters.  Begin Preparation Phase.

I agree with this. The one possible issue is that if a dominant is played inadvertently before a player takes an upkeep action, then the action is completed, then the dominant completes. So if you do play Mayhem immediately after your opponent draws his 3 cards, then he is allowed to add counters, or complete things like Fishing Boat (though I'm not sure why you'd want to draw before Mayhem triggers), Set Fire, etc. There are very few cases where this would matter (adding counters happens automatically, and other upkeep actions generally don't affect dominants) but I think it makes the most sense for draw phase and upkeep phases are similar to abilities that trigger with the beginning of the turn, and doms can't be played while they resolve.

Gifts isn't the best of examples because Set-Asides don't come back until the preparation phase and the only way to draw during upkeep would be fortresses, but I get the point. Not what I would have wanted (dominants need more power, right?*), but the ruling is consistant and makes sense. Thanks PTB.

*Yes, that was sarcasm.

Seven Years of Plenty draws during upkeep

http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Seven_Years_of_Plenty_%28FF2%29

Land of Bondage is part of Territory, and therefore is in play.

Perhaps you were confused because the Land of Redemption is out of play?

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 19, 2013, 01:59:13 PM

Land of Bondage is part of Territory, and therefore is in play.

Perhaps you were confused because the Land of Redemption is out of play?

Actually I was referring to the hopper's ability that says when drawn place in your opponents land of bondage. That means it doesn't become in play until it is in the opponent's land of bondage. Ergo cannot negate what is not in play and it would resolve by becoming in play.

Correct. But once it is in your opponent's Land of Bondage, it can be negated by your opponent's SoG, which would kick it back to your LoB for your opponent to be able to rescue it.

Ah I see and getting more confused by the minute. I was going by the fact that it says when drawn and not when played. It doesn't say when it inters your land of bondage. this might need more clarification. A lot more.

Ah I see and getting more confused by the minute. I was going by the fact that it says when drawn and not when played. It doesn't say when it inters your land of bondage. this might need more clarification. A lot more.

The problem here is semantics. The "when drawn" is there to distinguish between other ways that Lost Soul cards can be taken out of your draw pile (i.e. Harvest Time, as Prof Underwood mentioned). Thus, if you (or your opponent) searched for the Hopper, then put it in LoB, the ability would not activate since it was not drawn. You are taking the "when drawn" too literally, as to say "immediately after you draw this card," but that would never be the case, because special abilities never take effect after you read them, only after you play them. Sometimes, however, the abilities are conditional (like this one).