Author Topic: Gained Abilities part II (Read 7485 times)

SirNobody · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2009, 07:13:58 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 06, 2009, 10:10:19 AM

The one thing we still need to add to that list to help clear things up... placed enhancements. Some say they activate as a gained ability, some say they activate with WC enhs...

Assuming by "placed enhancements" you mean enhancements placed by abilities like the one on Agur, they don't activate at all, they are triggered. Triggered abilities always take effect after ALL activated abilities. Which means they take effect after choose the blocker abilities.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Perri · « **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:28:50 PM »

I was under the impression that placed enhancements, as used by Agur went off first, as the ability says the next time that hero enters battle the enhancement is activated and discarded immediately. Am I wrong on this? :/

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2009, 03:14:50 PM »

Quote from: sk on December 06, 2009, 01:41:11 PM

Quote from: sk on December 06, 2009, 04:01:11 AM
Here's Bryon's post confirming this.

Irrelevant. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be this way, just that it's currently written in a confusing way.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2009, 06:46:38 PM »

Quote from: Perri on December 07, 2009, 01:28:50 PM

I was under the impression that placed enhancements, as used by Agur went off first, as the ability says the next time that hero enters battle the enhancement is activated and discarded immediately. Am I wrong on this? :/

Maly and I have argued this for a while now... I don't think hes going to budge from his opinion one bit.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2009, 09:21:59 PM »

I stand with Tim,

Because the Hero hasn't 'entered battle' as defined by Redemption until all his abilties are completed.
Also you're not gonna budge one bit either Lambo

lightningninja · « **Reply #30 on:** December 07, 2009, 11:20:20 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 07, 2009, 09:21:59 PM

I stand with Tim,

Because the Hero hasn't 'entered battle' as defined by Redemption until all his abilties are completed.
Also you're not gonna budge one bit either Lambo

that makes sense to me and is how I always understood it.

SirNobody · « **Reply #31 on:** December 08, 2009, 12:42:24 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 07, 2009, 09:21:59 PM

I stand with Tim,

Because the Hero hasn't 'entered battle' as defined by Redemption until all his abilties are completed.
Also you're not gonna budge one bit either Lambo

I'm glad you agree with me but that's not the right reason. The hero enters battle when it's physically placed in the field of battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #32 on:** December 08, 2009, 12:47:11 PM »

What is the reason then Tim,

I was always under the impression that even though the hero was physically 'in battle' he wasn't 'in battle' by redemption terms until all associated abilities complete.

SirNobody · « **Reply #33 on:** December 08, 2009, 12:51:54 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 08, 2009, 12:47:11 PM

What is the reason then Tim,

Quote from: SirNobody on December 06, 2009, 07:13:58 PM

Triggered abilities always take effect after ALL activated abilities. Which means they take effect after choose the blocker abilities.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #34 on:** December 08, 2009, 04:31:57 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on December 06, 2009, 07:13:58 PM

Assuming by "placed enhancements" you mean enhancements placed by abilities like the one on Agur, they don't activate at all, they are triggered.

How do we know that placed enhancements are "triggered" and not "activated"? Where does this come from?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #35 on:** December 08, 2009, 06:39:51 PM »

The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #36 on:** December 08, 2009, 07:05:02 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 08, 2009, 06:39:51 PM

The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)

I thought that ruling was still being debated as well.

*NVM... i just saw the confirmation thread*

SirNobody · « **Reply #37 on:** December 08, 2009, 10:02:52 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 08, 2009, 04:31:57 PM

How do we know that placed enhancements are "triggered" and not "activated"? Where does this come from?

Agur's ability says, "...The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately.

The bolded part is a trigger, is it not? And when the trigger goes off, the enhancement activates (activates by special ability) because the ability says so.

Enhancements activate (activate by game rule) when they are played on a hero in battle. There are exceptions to this (weapons, healing, territory class, etc) but placed enhancements is not one of those exceptions.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #38 on:** December 08, 2009, 10:05:40 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 08, 2009, 06:39:51 PM

The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)

Warrior's Spear is a weapon, not a placed ("preloaded") enhancement. It isn't triggered, it's activated. There's a rule somewhere that says when a warrior holding a weapon enters battle the weapon's ability activates. That's why Warrior's Spear works.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #39 on:** December 08, 2009, 10:10:47 PM »

Right... I knew that. These two terms have always felt interchangable to me, except for these hairline situations when they matter, so I confuse them alot.

lightningninja · « **Reply #40 on:** December 08, 2009, 10:42:45 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 08, 2009, 07:05:02 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on December 08, 2009, 06:39:51 PM
The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)

I thought that ruling was still being debated as well.

*NVM... i just saw the confirmation thread*

Link?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #41 on:** December 08, 2009, 11:06:32 PM »

look in Ruling Questions... its pretty obvious which thread it is.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #42 on:** December 09, 2009, 12:39:49 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on December 08, 2009, 10:02:52 PM

Agur's ability says, "...The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. The bolded part is a trigger, is it not?

Quote from: SirNobody on December 08, 2009, 10:05:40 PM

"when a warrior holding a weapon enters battle the weapon's ability activates." Warrior's Spear is a weapon...It isn't triggered, it's activated.

Anyone else see an apparent contradiction here?

Why can't we just treat placed enhancements the same as weapon-class enhancements. The world would be so much simpler

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** December 09, 2009, 12:52:50 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 09, 2009, 12:39:49 AM

Why can't we just treat placed enhancements the same as weapon-class enhancements. The world would be so much simpler

I've been saying this for a long time now.

SirNobody · « **Reply #44 on:** December 09, 2009, 01:19:04 AM »

Hey

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 09, 2009, 12:39:49 AM

Quote from: SirNobody on December 08, 2009, 10:02:52 PM
Agur's ability says, "...The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. The bolded part is a trigger, is it not?
Quote from: SirNobody on December 08, 2009, 10:05:40 PM
"when a warrior holding a weapon enters battle the weapon's ability activates." Warrior's Spear is a weapon...It isn't triggered, it's activated.
Anyone else see an apparent contradiction here?

The first quote there is quoting a special ability. The second quote is quoting a rule. You're trying to compare apples to oranges, which is why there appears to be a contradiction when there isn't one.

Quote

Why can't we just treat placed enhancements the same as weapon-class enhancements. The world would be so much simpler

Are you suggesting all placed enhancements activate (by game rule) when they enter battle? I guess if we want to make Destructive Sin (and every other evil "place on a hero" card) completely worthless...

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #45 on:** December 10, 2009, 10:34:39 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on December 09, 2009, 01:19:04 AM

Are you suggesting all placed enhancements activate (by game rule) when they enter battle?

No. That is a good point. Let me rephrase:

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 09, 2009, 12:39:49 AM

Why can't we just treat placed enhancements [of the same alignment as the characters they are on] the same as weapon-class enhancements.

TimMierz · « **Reply #46 on:** December 10, 2009, 11:10:35 AM »

That doesn't quite work because of Melchizedek's Blessing:

"Place on an O.T. human Hero in a territory or set-aside area. While this card remains, Hero is protected from discard abilities, and each time that Hero enters battle, holder may draw a card."

Or Drawn Out:

"Take an O.T. male human Hero from deck, discard pile, or hand and put it in territory. Place this card on that Hero. Protect that Hero from evil discard abilities."

Or probably several others.

SirNobody · « **Reply #47 on:** December 10, 2009, 11:42:04 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: TimMierz on December 10, 2009, 11:10:35 AM

Or probably several others.

Asa's Good Reign was the first one that came to my mind.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #48 on:** December 10, 2009, 12:28:08 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on December 10, 2009, 11:10:35 AM

That doesn't quite work because of Melchizedek's Blessing...Drawn Out...

Quote from: SirNobody on December 10, 2009, 11:42:04 AM

Or...Asa's Good Reign

Actually after looking at those, I don't see why it couldn't work. It would just mean that they would jump between characters if they entered battle. That could actually make for some interesting gameplay and strategy.

lightningninja · « **Reply #49 on:** December 10, 2009, 04:24:09 PM »

I think any card that is placed on a character and says "next time that hero enters battle, this activates," it should take place after other abilities.

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Author Topic: Gained Abilities part II (Read 7485 times)

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