Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Korunks on December 04, 2009, 10:00:20 PM
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I have looked in the REG and can find no clear cut section on gained abilities. Where in the REG does it say they cannot be negated? I also wonder in what order they activate? If my Hero has ability A, and gains ability B when he enters into battle, what order do they activate in?
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If you're referring to abilities gained in set-aside, in the REG, under "Set Aside-General Description":
"Set-aside cards are described elsewhere (see Set Aside a Character in the rulebook [p. 12], Set-Aside Enhancements in the rulebook [p. 33], and Set-Aside in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 52]). Set-aside cards must include the words “set aside”. Set-aside cards are generally used to increase the abilities of the character(s) being set aside, but may also add special abilities to one or more specified cards. Unlike cards in the categories Increase or Decrease Ability on page 10 and Greater Worth on page 5, whose abilities only last until the end of the phase, the effects a character gains while in a set-aside area remain with the character when he returns to the Field of Play until the character is removed from the game, returned to hand, or placed in a draw or discard pile. Moreover, the gained effect cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated."
As for order, I would think that unless each ability activates with a different trigger or in a different phase, the player would choose the order of activation.
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so with some thing like passover and unleavened bread, does that count as a gained ability? If not when does that activate in regards to the above scenario?
Passover & Unleavened Bread
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal/Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn. For the next one of those Heroes that enters battle, return an Evil Character in play to the bottom of its owner’s draw pile. • Identifiers: OT, Feast • Verse: Leviticus 23:5-6 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
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It is a gained ability even though it lasts for one turn.
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ok so that brings it to the point of which order do they activate in?
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why would it last for only one turn? it doesn't say that on the card.
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my bad read the ability wrong :P ::)
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It lasts for one of them for one battle, which generally will be the first turn after they return :P
I assume they would activate wherever appropriate for their type of effect in the activation order. A gained banding ability would activate last, for example.
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It lasts for one of them for one battle, which generally will be the first turn after they return :P
I assume they would activate wherever appropriate for their type of effect in the activation order. A gained banding ability would activate last, for example.
Banding always goes first. CTB goes last.
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It lasts for one of them for one battle, which generally will be the first turn after they return :P
I assume they would activate wherever appropriate for their type of effect in the activation order. A gained banding ability would activate last, for example.
Banding always goes first. CTB goes last.
You're right, I got my list mixed up :P
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where in the reg is this list? So your saying it goes gained abilities then choose the blocker? I need to see the list. :)
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No I'm saying that if you have two gained abilities, the banding one would come before the ctb.
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where in the reg is this list? So your saying it goes gained abilities then choose the blocker? I need to see the list. :)
From the REG's Rulebook:
1. Hero leaves hand or territory
2. Hero enters Field of Battle
3. Activate special ability on Hero
4. Activate gained abilities
5. Activate weapon-class abilities
6. Activate banding abilities
7. Activate choose the blocker abilities
8. Activate special abilities triggered by the beginning of battle
9. Declaration of intent (i.e., battle challenge or rescue attempt)
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Nice! So Ehud activates and he chooses a king, then his gained ability (gathering) activates, and then he bands to King David who ignores. I was told that didn't work...
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Nice! So Ehud activates and he chooses a king, then his gained ability (gathering) activates, and then he bands to King David who ignores. I was told that didn't work...
It doesn't.
Any and all choose the blocker abilities MUST come last.
1. All SA's on the hero that do not add cards to battle (Banding or CTB)
2. Gained abilities that do not add cards to battle (Banding or CTB)
3. Weapon class and any placed enhs that do not add cards to battle.
3. Banding abilities on hero first, then gained banding abilities, then placed cards
4. CTB abilies on hero first, then gained CTB abilities, then placed cards
That is how I've always seen it from the officials.
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The Lamborghini is correct. All banding or CTB abilities (including those on a hero or a gained ability) aren't activated until later.
[edit] See my next post.
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Yeah, If it WAS that way, I would have forced them errata something... as I had a combo that would choose a phillistine giant from my territory, then band in Sibbechai who would discard them before they could do anything. :D
Trust me, if anyone knows the order of abilities... it's me... I had them absolutely drilled into my head. :D
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Well I don't think you know it, then. While the mantra the past idk how many years has been "CTB LAST," that's not true with the new restructuring. Read the REG order of operations and you will clearly find gained abilities high up on the list.
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Well I don't think you know it, then. While the mantra the past idk how many years has been "CTB LAST," that's not true with the new restructuring. Read the REG order of operations and you will clearly find gained abilities high up on the list.
No, trust me, I know the way this works. I've heard it this way from Bryon and Co. on MANY occasions.
Any and All CTB abilities come last. Period. It doesnt matter if they're placed enhs or gained abilities, they come after everything else.
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Here's Bryon's post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=26.0) confirming this.
Also, here's the official REG entry (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_specialabilities.htm).
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I know, you know, but a new player reading the list will only see Gained Abilities at step four or whatever, realize that Provisions is a gained ability, and there you go. Adding an (except banding or choose the blocker) would eliminate even more confusion.
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See: Bryon's post above.
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The one thing we still need to add to that list to help clear things up... placed enhancements. Some say they activate as a gained ability, some say they activate with WC enhs...
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See: Bryon's post above.
Bryon hasn't posted in this thread.
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Here's Bryon's post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=26.0) confirming this.
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Hey,
The one thing we still need to add to that list to help clear things up... placed enhancements. Some say they activate as a gained ability, some say they activate with WC enhs...
Assuming by "placed enhancements" you mean enhancements placed by abilities like the one on Agur, they don't activate at all, they are triggered. Triggered abilities always take effect after ALL activated abilities. Which means they take effect after choose the blocker abilities.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I was under the impression that placed enhancements, as used by Agur went off first, as the ability says the next time that hero enters battle the enhancement is activated and discarded immediately. Am I wrong on this? :/
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Here's Bryon's post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=26.0) confirming this.
Irrelevant. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be this way, just that it's currently written in a confusing way.
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I was under the impression that placed enhancements, as used by Agur went off first, as the ability says the next time that hero enters battle the enhancement is activated and discarded immediately. Am I wrong on this? :/
Maly and I have argued this for a while now... I don't think hes going to budge from his opinion one bit. :P
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I stand with Tim,
Because the Hero hasn't 'entered battle' as defined by Redemption until all his abilties are completed.
Also you're not gonna budge one bit either Lambo ;)
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I stand with Tim,
Because the Hero hasn't 'entered battle' as defined by Redemption until all his abilties are completed.
Also you're not gonna budge one bit either Lambo ;)
+1 that makes sense to me and is how I always understood it.
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Hey,
I stand with Tim,
Because the Hero hasn't 'entered battle' as defined by Redemption until all his abilties are completed.
Also you're not gonna budge one bit either Lambo ;)
I'm glad you agree with me but that's not the right reason. The hero enters battle when it's physically placed in the field of battle.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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What is the reason then Tim,
I was always under the impression that even though the hero was physically 'in battle' he wasn't 'in battle' by redemption terms until all associated abilities complete.
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Hey,
What is the reason then Tim,
Triggered abilities always take effect after ALL activated abilities. Which means they take effect after choose the blocker abilities.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Assuming by "placed enhancements" you mean enhancements placed by abilities like the one on Agur, they don't activate at all, they are triggered.
How do we know that placed enhancements are "triggered" and not "activated"? Where does this come from?
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The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)
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The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)
I thought that ruling was still being debated as well.
*NVM... i just saw the confirmation thread*
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Hey,
How do we know that placed enhancements are "triggered" and not "activated"? Where does this come from?
Agur's ability says, "...The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately.
The bolded part is a trigger, is it not? And when the trigger goes off, the enhancement activates (activates by special ability) because the ability says so.
Enhancements activate (activate by game rule) when they are played on a hero in battle. There are exceptions to this (weapons, healing, territory class, etc) but placed enhancements is not one of those exceptions.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)
Warrior's Spear is a weapon, not a placed ("preloaded") enhancement. It isn't triggered, it's activated. There's a rule somewhere that says when a warrior holding a weapon enters battle the weapon's ability activates. That's why Warrior's Spear works.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Right... I knew that. These two terms have always felt interchangable to me, except for these hairline situations when they matter, so I confuse them alot.
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The fact that Warrior's Spear is triggered, because if it was activated then it wouldn't work for Spy+Warrior's Spear. (I think)
I thought that ruling was still being debated as well.
*NVM... i just saw the confirmation thread*
Link?
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look in Ruling Questions... its pretty obvious which thread it is. :P
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Agur's ability says, "...The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. The bolded part is a trigger, is it not?
"when a warrior holding a weapon enters battle the weapon's ability activates." Warrior's Spear is a weapon...It isn't triggered, it's activated.
Anyone else see an apparent contradiction here?
Why can't we just treat placed enhancements the same as weapon-class enhancements. The world would be so much simpler :)
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Why can't we just treat placed enhancements the same as weapon-class enhancements. The world would be so much simpler :)
I've been saying this for a long time now.
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Hey
Agur's ability says, "...The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. The bolded part is a trigger, is it not?
"when a warrior holding a weapon enters battle the weapon's ability activates." Warrior's Spear is a weapon...It isn't triggered, it's activated.
Anyone else see an apparent contradiction here?
The first quote there is quoting a special ability. The second quote is quoting a rule. You're trying to compare apples to oranges, which is why there appears to be a contradiction when there isn't one.
Why can't we just treat placed enhancements the same as weapon-class enhancements. The world would be so much simpler :)
Are you suggesting all placed enhancements activate (by game rule) when they enter battle? I guess if we want to make Destructive Sin (and every other evil "place on a hero" card) completely worthless...
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Are you suggesting all placed enhancements activate (by game rule) when they enter battle?
No. That is a good point. Let me rephrase:
Why can't we just treat placed enhancements [of the same alignment as the characters they are on] the same as weapon-class enhancements.
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That doesn't quite work because of Melchizedek's Blessing:
"Place on an O.T. human Hero in a territory or set-aside area. While this card remains, Hero is protected from discard abilities, and each time that Hero enters battle, holder may draw a card."
Or Drawn Out:
"Take an O.T. male human Hero from deck, discard pile, or hand and put it in territory. Place this card on that Hero. Protect that Hero from evil discard abilities."
Or probably several others.
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Hey,
Or probably several others.
Asa's Good Reign was the first one that came to my mind.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That doesn't quite work because of Melchizedek's Blessing...Drawn Out...
Or...Asa's Good Reign
Actually after looking at those, I don't see why it couldn't work. It would just mean that they would jump between characters if they entered battle. That could actually make for some interesting gameplay and strategy.
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I think any card that is placed on a character and says "next time that hero enters battle, this activates," it should take place after other abilities.